J
JMM1957
Guest
Yes, you could say that.
If John 6 is speaking of the eucharist, how can non Catholics be saved?
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J
JMM1957
Guest
The most likely meaning to this is, a reference back to verses 50-51 where Jesus says he is “the bread that comes down from heaven,”(verse 50) and also “I am the living bread that came down from heaven.”(verse 51). Then looking down to verse 61, Jesus says. “Does this shock you?” referring to his speaking of “eating flesh and drinking blood” and being the bread that came down from heaven. So, if Jesus was seen ascending back to heaven by the disciples, would they not also be shocked? Or would it complete their understanding?
C
CatholicKnight3
Guest
When Christ says this IS it IS. Christ says it 6 times in that chapter and each time He is more empathic than the time before.
When Peter looks at Christ after many went away after hearing those words, Christ Did not “back down” or clarify the meaning like He did with all of His other parables. He asked Peter, “are you going to leave too?”
Christ clearly speaks of the spiritual reality of the Eucharist in the chapter. The confusion lies in the fact that many Protestants automatically think when something is spiritual, that it is symbolic. No, not in this case.
The day of symbolism has been fulfilled in Christ. The Old Testament if you will, spoke of and spoke to Christ. Which is emphasize when Christ says for My BODY IS REAL FOOD and MY BLOOD IS REAL DRINK.
There is a special grace when you accept the Eucharist through faith.
When Peter looks at Christ after many went away after hearing those words, Christ Did not “back down” or clarify the meaning like He did with all of His other parables. He asked Peter, “are you going to leave too?”
Christ clearly speaks of the spiritual reality of the Eucharist in the chapter. The confusion lies in the fact that many Protestants automatically think when something is spiritual, that it is symbolic. No, not in this case.
The day of symbolism has been fulfilled in Christ. The Old Testament if you will, spoke of and spoke to Christ. Which is emphasize when Christ says for My BODY IS REAL FOOD and MY BLOOD IS REAL DRINK.
There is a special grace when you accept the Eucharist through faith.
R
rcwitness
Guest
Ben, I really appreciate your participation in this thread. I know you offer thoughtful replies to many Catholics who give you questions. But I really would like to know your thoughts on this passage, since a large part of your understanding of Eucharist is only (not that it’s small) a thanksgiving, but not an actual participation and receiving of that sacrifice THROUGH actual eating. Does Paul not clearly express the celebration of the Lord’s Supper is a participation in the actual sacrifice of Jesus to God?
B
benhur
Guest
yes.The flesh can not believe, at least not the belief Jesus demands.gives.
B
benhur
Guest
Hi rc.thank you for the kind remarks
Well it is a rite ,a religious event, where we “remember”,and give thanksgiving and thru the ritual of doing as they did at the Last Supper. As such there of course is “participation”.
As far as your cited scripture I can only initially think that the “cup of the Lord” is figurative for a spiritual reality, as is the “cup of demons” ( unless you want to say pagans literally imbibe demons
Blessings
B
benhur
Guest
Hi "57,
Quite possible but we agree I think of layered meanings ,that of course He is also referring to the Ascension, and I would say just as the eating is referring to His atoning death. “The son of man must be lifted up .He will draw all men to Him” referring to Calvary. Christ does talk about having to be "drawn’’ by the Father to Christ in this discourse. Remember also it shocked the apostles early on in the ministry of the Lords baptism of the Cross. Peter even said it would not happen,once. he still drew a sword on that arresting night.
Blessings
B
benhur
Guest
Thank you but I would say folks "phago’ at communion. The only time I trogo/gnaw anything is when i get one of those big turkey legs at the Renaissance Festival.
B
benhur
Guest
Yes, he certainly did. Thank you .The writings have been presented many times and sometimes the rebuttal using fathers also. I would also say that their writings represent varied representations about “communion”.
D
Duane1966
Guest
So you do believe it is real flesh then. Because you just said Ignatius knows what he is talking about, and he clearly is not being figurative.
R
rcwitness
Guest
Once again, I am not trying to pry u away from figurative meanings. But I believe it’s problematic to see only figurative as well as it being problematic to see only literal meaning.
But my point was that Paul connects the Bread and Cup with sacrifice. It is His sacrifice. The reference to idolitry is also a participation with demons, yet that sacrifice is mere food offered to false gods. But ours is Christ’s sacrifice.
Take for example the Garden of Eden. Is there figurative stuff? Of course. Was there also actual trees, and literal eating?
R
rinnie
Guest
I think you hit a good point in your last sentence. The Eucharist is one of the Great Mysteries of our faith. Like the Trinity, no one can quite explain HOW in human terms, and I think that is what the problem is with all of the Mysteries of our faith. Christ does not explain to us in human terms how or why all of the time.
If he explained it, it would no longer be a mystery. He will reveal these mysteries when and where and how he chooses.
That is where I believe there is great reward in Faith, Faith is something you cannot see nor understand in human understanding, you just know from Grace given to you from God to believe.
And the only answer is Where is your proof, or where does you belief come from, it is simple faith that Jesus said so.
When asked how? We do not know Jesus did not tell us how. Why?
R
rcwitness
Guest
22Then theLordGod said, “Behold, the man has become like one of us, knowing good and evil; and now, lest he put forth his hand and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live for ever”—23therefore theLord*God sent him forth from the garden of Eden, to till the ground from which he was taken.24He drove out the man; and at the east of the garden of Eden he placed the cherubim, and a flaming sword which turned every way, to guard the way to the tree of life.
Genesis 3
Genesis 3
T
Telstar
Guest
This is a very important point that is completely glossed over by so many people who cannot, or just plain refuse to believe in the reality of the Holy Eucharist of the Catholic Church. It is a matter of having a deep faith in whatever Jesus says, no matter how difficult it is for us to understand.
What I really can’t understand is how those who cannot bring themselves to believe in the great Gift of the Holy Eucharist that Jesus left to us for our comfort and spiritual growth, seem to have no problem believing that we will all be physically resurrected on the Last Day. Our dead bodies that have turned to dust in the ground (or wherever they are) will be made whole, again, and brought back to life. If we can believe that Jesus can do that, then why is it so hard for any of us to believe that He would leave us His actual Body and Blood (His Real Presence) in the simple form of bread and wine?
The Holy Eucharist was meant to be a perpetual sign for all of us of His greatest gift of love, His death on the cross. He literally left behind a real piece of His loving Heart, hidden in that bread and wine, so He could truly remain with us until the end of days. People can’t even begin to imagine what great graces they are missing by not receiving that great gift, that can only come to us through the Catholic Church.
This is another excellent point that I believe also foreshadows the establishment of the Holy Eucharist by Jesus. When Adam and Eve sinned, they were banished from the Garden of Eden to keep them from partaking of the fruit of “Tree of Life”. When Jesus died on the Cross (the new “Tree of Life”), the Holy Eucharist that He had given to the Apostles at the Last Supper became the Fruit of that New Tree of Life, which is implanted in our hearts whenever we partake of it. Our hearts become one with the Sacred Heart of Jesus. We are eternally joined together with Him.
The Holy Eucharist is the source of our eternal life in the same way the fruit from the Tree of Life in the Garden of Eden was the source of eternal life for Adam and Eve, before their fall. As long as we remain in God’s Grace and receive Him worthily, as Paul said, “discerning the Body of the Lord”, then we will have eternal life, and Jesus will raise us up on the Last Day. It’s as simple as that.
C
CatholicKnight3
Guest
I also wonder what the emphasis of what happened on the road to Emmaus…
Luke 24: 20-32
20 The chief priests and our rulers handed him over to be sentenced to death, and they crucified him; 21 but we had hoped that he was the one who was going to redeem Israel. And what is more, it is the third day since all this took place. 22 In addition, some of our women amazed us. They went to the tomb early this morning 23 but didn’t find his body. They came and told us that they had seen a vision of angels, who said he was alive. 24 Then some of our companions went to the tomb and found it just as the women had said, but they did not see Jesus.”
25 He said to them, “How foolish you are, and how slow to believe all that the prophets have spoken! 26 Did not the Messiah have to suffer these things and then enter his glory?” 27 And beginning with Moses and all the Prophets, he explained to them what was said in all the Scriptures concerning himself.
28 As they approached the village to which they were going, Jesus continued on as if he were going farther. 29 But they urged him strongly, “Stay with us, for it is nearly evening; the day is almost over.” So he went in to stay with them.
30 When he was at the table with them, he took bread, gave thanks, broke it and began to give it to them. 31 Then their eyes were opened and they recognized him, and he disappeared from their sight. 32 They asked each other, “Were not our hearts burning within us while he talked with us on the road and opened the Scriptures to us?”
Why did the Holy Spirit open their eyes AFTER Christ broke the bread? What is this significance?
BTW, if we look at scripture, according to the Gospels, there was only ONE disciple at the foot of the cross. Perhaps it is a small observation. However from what I see there is an actual reason for this.
The night before during the last supper, only ONE of the disciples acknowledged their unworthiness before taking the consecrated Eucharist. According to Pauls writings in Corinthians, we must examine our conscience before taking it.
Read what is happening during the supper when Christ tells them that one of you this very night will betray me. All of them said to themselves “surely not I.” Peter at one point loudly exclaims that he would never betray Him. Remember, those who EXALT themselves shall be humbled. Those who humble themselves shall be EXALTED.
One disciple, leaned on Jesus’s chest (BTW after Peter nodded for him to do so) and asked “Is it I?” Now, some translations says the disciple (John) asked, “Who is it?” Well, there is a difference. I believe he asked if it was I.
That would mean that John took the Eucharist WORTHILY since he is acknowledging his UNWORTHINESS and being HUMBLE. BTW, later AFTER the resurrection Peter asks the Lord about the one that leaned on your chest. Meaning, there was something more significant about that interaction.
Ironically, the next day John is the only one to be at the foot of the cross. The TRUE grace led him to the foot of the cross. The rest of the disciples (the ones that that exalted themselves inwardly,) denied Christ inwardly at this crucial time. No doubt they remained in the back ground and fearful. Peter, who exalted himself outwardly of course denied him 3 times.
Is all of that related to the fact that John had taken the Eucharist worthily and so therefore had the grace to be at the Lords feet? During a time when there must have been great fear that anyone associated with him could be executed? I am sure many hear would say they would most certainly not have been afraid. Of course not. Me? I would have been terrified. Based on how many times in my life I have acted like a coward, there is a distinct possibility I would not have been eager to be associated with Christ.
Anyway, John became the SYMBOL of what all believers do and where the Holy Spirit leads us. Those who receive Christ in grace, are led to the foot of the cross. Hence, when Christ says to his disciple, "Behold YOUR MOTHER "(not my mother), it was also eternal. That is reiterated and affirmed in Revelation 12:17 where it says, “The devil went off to wage war with the REST OF HER OFFSPRING. All of those who bear witness to Christ and keep His commandments.”
Yes, those words too, uttered from Christ, as recorded by the Gospel were eternal words too.
Anyway, sorry for the long post.
Luke 24: 20-32
20 The chief priests and our rulers handed him over to be sentenced to death, and they crucified him; 21 but we had hoped that he was the one who was going to redeem Israel. And what is more, it is the third day since all this took place. 22 In addition, some of our women amazed us. They went to the tomb early this morning 23 but didn’t find his body. They came and told us that they had seen a vision of angels, who said he was alive. 24 Then some of our companions went to the tomb and found it just as the women had said, but they did not see Jesus.”
25 He said to them, “How foolish you are, and how slow to believe all that the prophets have spoken! 26 Did not the Messiah have to suffer these things and then enter his glory?” 27 And beginning with Moses and all the Prophets, he explained to them what was said in all the Scriptures concerning himself.
28 As they approached the village to which they were going, Jesus continued on as if he were going farther. 29 But they urged him strongly, “Stay with us, for it is nearly evening; the day is almost over.” So he went in to stay with them.
30 When he was at the table with them, he took bread, gave thanks, broke it and began to give it to them. 31 Then their eyes were opened and they recognized him, and he disappeared from their sight. 32 They asked each other, “Were not our hearts burning within us while he talked with us on the road and opened the Scriptures to us?”
Why did the Holy Spirit open their eyes AFTER Christ broke the bread? What is this significance?
BTW, if we look at scripture, according to the Gospels, there was only ONE disciple at the foot of the cross. Perhaps it is a small observation. However from what I see there is an actual reason for this.
The night before during the last supper, only ONE of the disciples acknowledged their unworthiness before taking the consecrated Eucharist. According to Pauls writings in Corinthians, we must examine our conscience before taking it.
Read what is happening during the supper when Christ tells them that one of you this very night will betray me. All of them said to themselves “surely not I.” Peter at one point loudly exclaims that he would never betray Him. Remember, those who EXALT themselves shall be humbled. Those who humble themselves shall be EXALTED.
One disciple, leaned on Jesus’s chest (BTW after Peter nodded for him to do so) and asked “Is it I?” Now, some translations says the disciple (John) asked, “Who is it?” Well, there is a difference. I believe he asked if it was I.
That would mean that John took the Eucharist WORTHILY since he is acknowledging his UNWORTHINESS and being HUMBLE. BTW, later AFTER the resurrection Peter asks the Lord about the one that leaned on your chest. Meaning, there was something more significant about that interaction.
Ironically, the next day John is the only one to be at the foot of the cross. The TRUE grace led him to the foot of the cross. The rest of the disciples (the ones that that exalted themselves inwardly,) denied Christ inwardly at this crucial time. No doubt they remained in the back ground and fearful. Peter, who exalted himself outwardly of course denied him 3 times.
Is all of that related to the fact that John had taken the Eucharist worthily and so therefore had the grace to be at the Lords feet? During a time when there must have been great fear that anyone associated with him could be executed? I am sure many hear would say they would most certainly not have been afraid. Of course not. Me? I would have been terrified. Based on how many times in my life I have acted like a coward, there is a distinct possibility I would not have been eager to be associated with Christ.
Anyway, John became the SYMBOL of what all believers do and where the Holy Spirit leads us. Those who receive Christ in grace, are led to the foot of the cross. Hence, when Christ says to his disciple, "Behold YOUR MOTHER "(not my mother), it was also eternal. That is reiterated and affirmed in Revelation 12:17 where it says, “The devil went off to wage war with the REST OF HER OFFSPRING. All of those who bear witness to Christ and keep His commandments.”
Yes, those words too, uttered from Christ, as recorded by the Gospel were eternal words too.
Anyway, sorry for the long post.
J
JMM1957
Guest
Great post!
B
benhur
Guest
No . He may or may not be being figurative or literal. If Ignatius were writing it to say Zwingli then ok but it was to Gnostics ,who believed Christ to not have have died in the flesh. Certainly the elements are a "figure’ for the reality of Calvary, and Incarnate real physical Christ dying for our sins.
Blessings
B
benhur
Guest
J
JMM1957
Guest
How would Ignatius writing about the Eucharist (the real flesh and blood) to the Gnostics convince them that Jesus died in the flesh on Calvary? The Eucharist would only be more of a stumbling block to the Gnostics, wouldn’t it? First you have to believe Jesus died in the flesh before you could even begin to deal with understanding the meaning of the Eucharist.
B
benhur
Guest
Correct. The bigger concern is believing that Christ died in the flesh, not communion meaning when dealing with Gnostics. One follows the other.
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