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rcwitness
Guest
But not mere belief, as even demons have, but partaking in and doing so in a worthy manner. Without partaking and participation in the Bread and Cup, there is rejection of His life.
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If John 6 is speaking of the eucharist, how can non Catholics be saved?
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C
CatholicKnight3
Guest
I would not go so far as to say they are “rejecting it” as much as they are not fulfilled. Yes, perhaps it can be seen as a form of rejection in the way many disciples walked away when they heard Him proclaim that He is the Bread of life.But not mere belief, as even demons have, but partaking in and doing so in a worthy manner. Without partaking and participation in the Bread and Cup, there is rejection of His life.
I believe it was Pope Benedict (may have been Saint John Paul II) that called our protestant brothers “wounded” Christians.
They deprive themselves of Graces that is being offered by the Lord. I do not think it is a “rejection” as much as it is a misunderstanding. Then again there is a lot of misunderstandings.
The question is how many things do we need to simply accept with out understanding. I would say pretty much everything. I know for me it is very hard with many subjects. My pride gets in the way a lot.
I just believe they really do deprive themselves of special Graces being offered by not accepting the words of the Lord by their simple misunderstanding. Of course many that come here to sites like I this I believe are searching.
Maybe they are rejecting it. I do not know.
K
KathleenGee
Guest
Yes, ‘wounded’ is the right word as they have open wounds that are not healed by the Eucharist.
J
JMM1957
Guest
Ignatius of Antioch to the Smyrnaeans: “They abstain from the Eucharist and from prayer, because they do not admit that the Eucharist is the flesh of our Savior Jesus Christ, the flesh which suffered for our sins and which the Father, in His graciousness, raised from the dead.”Correct. The bigger concern is believing that Christ died in the flesh, not communion meaning when dealing with Gnostics. One follows the other.
Here he says, not only did Jesus suffer in the flesh, but the Eucharist is His flesh. He said this as a response to the Docetists false claims. So, it is clear that Ignatius understood that the flesh and blood of Jesus that died on the cross, was indeed the same Jesus whose flesh and blood is the Eucharist. It is not figurative or symbolic, but literal. Jesus literal flesh died on the cross.
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rcwitness
Guest
Rejecting His Eucharist is a rejection of Him.Yes, ‘wounded’ is the right word as they have open wounds that are not healed by the Eucharist.
The reformation proved to be an attack on His Eucharist.
The Abuses by Catholics which led to the reformation was a profanity of Him too.
So our sins and doubts affect us all. This is no new concept, but a mystery of our relationship in Him.
D
Duane1966
Guest
Ben, he is not writing to the Gnostics, he is writing to other Catholics at Smyrna. Let’s look at that part of the letter again:No . He may or may not be being figurative or literal. If Ignatius were writing it to say Zwingli then ok but it was to Gnostics ,who believed Christ to not have have died in the flesh. Certainly the elements are a "figure’ for the reality of Calvary, and Incarnate real physical Christ dying for our sins.
Blessings
In the above particular part of the letter, he is writing about heretics and criticizing them, and one of the things he is clearly criticizing them for is their belief that the Eucharist is not the flesh of Jesus. If he, or the Catholics at Smyrna did not believe it was the flesh, why would he criticize the heretics for their non-belief about the Eucharist. That would be hypocritical.They abstain from the Eucharist and from prayer, because they** confess not the Eucharist to be the flesh of our Saviour Jesus Christ**
K
KathleenGee
Guest
And I go back to beat the old horse…more and more I see and read…the more I see people as inheriting Luther’s scruples.
Literal or figurative…still not decided? the Church was given to us…one of the hallmarks of faith is certitude, not endless meanders…‘Did He mean this or that?’…True faith is of certitude…and authority.
My bishop who was on the Vatican II Council for Ecumenism said the bottom line is the laying on of hands…not figurative…but authoritative…and it all goes back to the ancient customs…and we see this in Deuteronomy, Ch 34. The Death of Moses.
'Then Moses went up from the plains of Moab to Mount Nebo, the peak of Pisgah which faces Jericho, and the Lord showed him all the land…4…The Lord then said to him, This is the land about which I promised oath to Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob, 'I will let you see it with your own eyes, but you shall not cross over. So there, in the land of Moab, Moses, the servant of the Lord, died as the Lord had said; and he was buried in a valley of the land of Moab, opposite Beth-peor; to this day no one knows the place of his burial. Moses was one hundred and twenty years old when he died, yet his eyes were undimmed and his vigor unabated. The Israelites wept for Moses in the plains of Moab for thirty days, til they had completed the period of grief and mourning for Moses.
Now Joshua, son of Nun, was filled with the spirit of wisdom, since Moses had laid his hands upon him; and so the Israelites gave him their obedience, just as the Lord had commanded Moses.’
There is no true communion without the laying on of hands by the bishop at ordination.
The next post…on the priest’s hands…
Literal or figurative…still not decided? the Church was given to us…one of the hallmarks of faith is certitude, not endless meanders…‘Did He mean this or that?’…True faith is of certitude…and authority.
My bishop who was on the Vatican II Council for Ecumenism said the bottom line is the laying on of hands…not figurative…but authoritative…and it all goes back to the ancient customs…and we see this in Deuteronomy, Ch 34. The Death of Moses.
'Then Moses went up from the plains of Moab to Mount Nebo, the peak of Pisgah which faces Jericho, and the Lord showed him all the land…4…The Lord then said to him, This is the land about which I promised oath to Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob, 'I will let you see it with your own eyes, but you shall not cross over. So there, in the land of Moab, Moses, the servant of the Lord, died as the Lord had said; and he was buried in a valley of the land of Moab, opposite Beth-peor; to this day no one knows the place of his burial. Moses was one hundred and twenty years old when he died, yet his eyes were undimmed and his vigor unabated. The Israelites wept for Moses in the plains of Moab for thirty days, til they had completed the period of grief and mourning for Moses.
Now Joshua, son of Nun, was filled with the spirit of wisdom, since Moses had laid his hands upon him; and so the Israelites gave him their obedience, just as the Lord had commanded Moses.’
There is no true communion without the laying on of hands by the bishop at ordination.
The next post…on the priest’s hands…
K
KathleenGee
Guest
The Church guides and nurtures us to Christ. The Church leads us out of wandering within our own spiritual deserts…to enter into true communion and one of the essentials for this security of faith is is the laying on of hands to validate Catholic Eucharist.
We know that as God chose Moses, and Moses laid hands on Joshua who became his successor, this laying on of hands as sign of authority going to the ancients chosen by God.
So here is a little treatise on ‘The Hands of a Priest’, an ordained Catholic/Orthodox priest.
'Jesus Christ is always the One who gives, who draws us to himself. He alone can say: “this is my Body…this is my Blood.” The mystery of the priesthood of the Church lies in the fact that we, miserable human beings, by virtue of the sacrament, can speak with is “I” : in persona Christi.
He wishes to exercise his priesthood through us. At the center of the sacrament is the very ancient rite of the imposition of hands, with which he took possession of me, saying to me: “You belong to me.” However, in saying this he also said: “You are under the protection of my heart. You are kept safely in the palm of my hands. You are under the protection of my heart. You are kept safely in the palm of my hands, and this is precisely how you find yourself in the immensity of my love. Stay in my hands, and give me yours.”
The Lord has laid his hands upon us and he now wants our hands so that they may become his own in the world. He no longer wants them to be instruments for taking things, people or the world for ourselves at the service of his love, they can pass on his divine touch. He wants our hands to be instruments of service, hence, an expression of the mission of the whole person who vouches for him and brings him to men and women. If human hands symbolically represent human faculties, then anointed hands must be a sign of the human capacity for giving, for the creativity in shaping the world with love. Christ is giving the world a new kingship, a new priesthood, a new way of being a prophet who does not seek himself but lives for the One with a view to whom the world was created.’
Pope Benedict
We know that as God chose Moses, and Moses laid hands on Joshua who became his successor, this laying on of hands as sign of authority going to the ancients chosen by God.
So here is a little treatise on ‘The Hands of a Priest’, an ordained Catholic/Orthodox priest.
'Jesus Christ is always the One who gives, who draws us to himself. He alone can say: “this is my Body…this is my Blood.” The mystery of the priesthood of the Church lies in the fact that we, miserable human beings, by virtue of the sacrament, can speak with is “I” : in persona Christi.
He wishes to exercise his priesthood through us. At the center of the sacrament is the very ancient rite of the imposition of hands, with which he took possession of me, saying to me: “You belong to me.” However, in saying this he also said: “You are under the protection of my heart. You are kept safely in the palm of my hands. You are under the protection of my heart. You are kept safely in the palm of my hands, and this is precisely how you find yourself in the immensity of my love. Stay in my hands, and give me yours.”
The Lord has laid his hands upon us and he now wants our hands so that they may become his own in the world. He no longer wants them to be instruments for taking things, people or the world for ourselves at the service of his love, they can pass on his divine touch. He wants our hands to be instruments of service, hence, an expression of the mission of the whole person who vouches for him and brings him to men and women. If human hands symbolically represent human faculties, then anointed hands must be a sign of the human capacity for giving, for the creativity in shaping the world with love. Christ is giving the world a new kingship, a new priesthood, a new way of being a prophet who does not seek himself but lives for the One with a view to whom the world was created.’
Pope Benedict
K
KathleenGee
Guest
And another on the sacred communion…
‘The Sacrificial Aspect of the Eucharist’…"…Jesus Christ is bestowed on us. Thus the Eucharist is a sacrifice: being given up to God in Jesus Christ and thereby at the same time having the gift of his love bestowed upon us, for Christ is both the giver and gift. Through him, and with him, and in him we celebrate the Eucharist.
Communion with him is that communion with the whole, without which there is no communion with Christ. A part of Christian prayer and of the Christian faith is commiting one’s self in faith to the whole, overcoming one’s limits.
The liturgy is not setting up some club, an association of friends; we receive it from the whole Church, and we have to celebrate it as coming from the whole and directed toward the whole. Only then do we believe and pray aright, when we are living it in the context of this act of self-transcendence, or of self-abnegation, directed toward the Church of all times and of all places: this is what Catholicism essentially is. This is what we aim at whenever we step out of the zone of what is ours to unite ourselves with the pope and thus enter into the Church of all nations.’
P Benedict
To receive the Eucharist with faith, we must renounce our entire beings, We must die to self…and enter into the whole and for the whole…and today we see this communion, this directed to the whole of all nations today…with Pope Francis and his connection to all peoples…it is not so much him…but his office…Christ coming to us in peace, joy, hope, and His presence that He is with us at all times.
‘The Sacrificial Aspect of the Eucharist’…"…Jesus Christ is bestowed on us. Thus the Eucharist is a sacrifice: being given up to God in Jesus Christ and thereby at the same time having the gift of his love bestowed upon us, for Christ is both the giver and gift. Through him, and with him, and in him we celebrate the Eucharist.
Communion with him is that communion with the whole, without which there is no communion with Christ. A part of Christian prayer and of the Christian faith is commiting one’s self in faith to the whole, overcoming one’s limits.
The liturgy is not setting up some club, an association of friends; we receive it from the whole Church, and we have to celebrate it as coming from the whole and directed toward the whole. Only then do we believe and pray aright, when we are living it in the context of this act of self-transcendence, or of self-abnegation, directed toward the Church of all times and of all places: this is what Catholicism essentially is. This is what we aim at whenever we step out of the zone of what is ours to unite ourselves with the pope and thus enter into the Church of all nations.’
P Benedict
To receive the Eucharist with faith, we must renounce our entire beings, We must die to self…and enter into the whole and for the whole…and today we see this communion, this directed to the whole of all nations today…with Pope Francis and his connection to all peoples…it is not so much him…but his office…Christ coming to us in peace, joy, hope, and His presence that He is with us at all times.
J
JMM1957
Guest
:yup:Ben, he is not writing to the Gnostics, he is writing to other Catholics at Smyrna. Let’s look at that part of the letter again: In the above particular part of the letter, he is writing about heretics and criticizing them, and one of the things he is clearly criticizing them for is their belief that the Eucharist is not the flesh of Jesus. If he, or the Catholics at Smyrna did not believe it was the flesh, why would he criticize the heretics for their non-belief about the Eucharist. That would be hypocritical.
B
benhur
Guest
Right which the Gnostics did reject. No one is worthy, yet partaking can be done unworthily but the context is not how we eat( with teeth or bellies or spiritually though as you say both are done)But not mere belief, as even demons have, but partaking in and doing so in a worthy manner. Without partaking and participation in the Bread and Cup, there is rejection of His life.
Hopefully you see we participate in Eucharisting also and do not reject His life.
Blessings
B
benhur
Guest
Hi KYes, ‘wounded’ is the right word as they have open wounds that are not healed by the Eucharist.
So His stripes only heal a Catholic Eucharister?
B
benhur
Guest
Hi D,Ben, he is not writing to the Gnostics, he is writing to other Catholics at Smyrna. Let’s look at that part of the letter again: In the above particular part of the letter, he is writing about heretics and criticizing them, and one of the things he is clearly criticizing them for is their belief that the Eucharist is not the flesh of Jesus. If he, or the Catholics at Smyrna did not believe it was the flesh, why would he criticize the heretics for their non-belief about the Eucharist. That would be hypocritical.
Are you sure the letter dealt with Catholics or even like you and I today where we just differ on literal or figurative but not on Incarnation?
L
LutheranScholar
Guest
We do. Every Divine Service, the Lord serves us with His Sacred Body and Blood in Sacramental Union with the Bread and Wine. We celebrate the Sacrament of the Lord’s Supper according to the Institution, neither adding to it or taking from it. bookofconcord.org/defense_23_mass.phpI’ve asked this question twice on the “ask an apologist” forum but apparently it doesn’t qualify, so I figured I’d ask it here.
I am about to start RCIA after being a protestant for 18 years (and grown up my entire life in protestant churches). This was one question I had regarding what seems like conflicting church teaching and talking to one of my protestant friends about me converting, he asked the same question.
In John 6, Jesus says:
“Amen, amen, I say to you, unless you eat the flesh of the Son of man and drink his blood, you will not have life in you. Whoever eats my flesh and drinks my blood has eternal life, and I will raise him up on the last day. For my flesh is true food, and my blood is true drink. Whoever eats my flesh and drinks my blood abides in me, and I in him. Just as the living Father has sent me and I live because of the Father, so also whoever eats me, the same shall live because of me. This is the bread that descends from heaven. It is not like the manna that your fathers ate, for they died. Whoever eats this bread shall live forever.”
If this is to be taken as the eucharist, how can non Catholics be saved since they cannot partake of his body and blood?
D
Duane1966
Guest
I am sure he is writing to Catholics, warning them about heretics. Ben, is it enough to just believe in the Incarnation?Hi D,
Are you sure the letter dealt with Catholics or even like you and I today where we just differ on literal or figurative but not on Incarnation?
R
rcwitness
Guest
Hey Ben, it becomes a matter for Him to know. Yes, I hope you are accepting much of His life. His life is many choices. Our time is always here…Right which the Gnostics did reject. No one is worthy, yet partaking can be done unworthily but the context is not how we eat( with teeth or bellies or spiritually though as you say both are done)
Hopefully you see we participate in Eucharisting also and do not reject His life.
Blessings
Jesus said to them, “My time has not yet come, but your time is always here.**The world cannot hate you, but it hates me because I testify of it that its works are evil.
Participating in His Eucharist is what we are compelled to do. The father draws us, and we eat of the one who bring together God’s lost flock. In Him we are found. He is the narrow gate, not like many wide open communions, but one that is set with His seal and flesh and blood. Participating in His Eucharist is accepting His sacrifice for what we could not accomplish, while at the same time accepting His suffering in our lives, because that’s what will happen if His life is in us.
“We are heirs of God, provided we suffer with Him.”
Yes, I believe you may have life. And I also believe that I should not condone an invalid or proper communion from the whole and true body.
C
CatholicKnight3
Guest
Most Christians are suppose to see the things that are contained in the Old Testament and revealed in the New Testament.
I think we are all in agreement that the passover represents. We can all see what this is all about and the prophetic implications.
The blood of the unblemished lamb and the Lord passes over those homes.
Well, what are they commanded to do AFTER they take SOME of the blood and put on the doorposts? Glad you asked.
Exodus 12:6-8
6’You shall keep it until the fourteenth day of the same month, then the whole assembly of the congregation of Israel is to kill it at twilight. 7’Moreover, they shall take some of the blood and put it on the two doorposts and on the lintel of the houses in which they eat it. 8They shall eat the flesh that same night, roasted with fire, and they shall eat it with unleavened bread and bitter herbs.…
Are they commanded to eat something that represents the lamb? Or are they to eat the lamb?
Now, the question is how does a wafer of unleavened bread become the lamb? That, is the essence of faith. If we believe Christ, is truly THE CHRIST, then we need to believe it when he says…“THIS IS…”
When Christ says 'THIS IS…" it IS.
He is the same Lord that told the Israelites that I AM is here. Interestingly the words that sent him to His PASSION were the words I AM.
This is all to be ACCEPTED through FAITH by US. I am not saying I myself do this. Please understand that I am no Saint. When I do find myself coming to my senses, I see the wisdom behinds Gods plan. Yes, I sometimes do think I am wiser than God…lol. I do have “pride issues” that is for sure.
God bless.
I think we are all in agreement that the passover represents. We can all see what this is all about and the prophetic implications.
The blood of the unblemished lamb and the Lord passes over those homes.
Well, what are they commanded to do AFTER they take SOME of the blood and put on the doorposts? Glad you asked.
Exodus 12:6-8
6’You shall keep it until the fourteenth day of the same month, then the whole assembly of the congregation of Israel is to kill it at twilight. 7’Moreover, they shall take some of the blood and put it on the two doorposts and on the lintel of the houses in which they eat it. 8They shall eat the flesh that same night, roasted with fire, and they shall eat it with unleavened bread and bitter herbs.…
Are they commanded to eat something that represents the lamb? Or are they to eat the lamb?
Now, the question is how does a wafer of unleavened bread become the lamb? That, is the essence of faith. If we believe Christ, is truly THE CHRIST, then we need to believe it when he says…“THIS IS…”
When Christ says 'THIS IS…" it IS.
He is the same Lord that told the Israelites that I AM is here. Interestingly the words that sent him to His PASSION were the words I AM.
This is all to be ACCEPTED through FAITH by US. I am not saying I myself do this. Please understand that I am no Saint. When I do find myself coming to my senses, I see the wisdom behinds Gods plan. Yes, I sometimes do think I am wiser than God…lol. I do have “pride issues” that is for sure.
God bless.
J
JMM1957
Guest
I think that most Christians probably feel more comfortable with the NT better than the OT, simply because it is an easier read, but we need to understand, as you said above, that we’re dealing with the “whole” salvation story, and what is prefigured in the OT is fulfilled in the NT in so many cases. I feel the CC, with the guidance of the Holy Spirit is better able to see many of these prefigurements than non-Catholics, at least this is my opinion about it.Most Christians are suppose to see the things that are contained in the Old Testament and revealed in the New Testament.
I think we are all in agreement that the passover represents. We can all see what this is all about and the prophetic implications.
The blood of the unblemished lamb and the Lord passes over those homes.
Well, what are they commanded to do AFTER they take SOME of the blood and put on the doorposts? Glad you asked.
Exodus 12:6-8
6’You shall keep it until the fourteenth day of the same month, then the whole assembly of the congregation of Israel is to kill it at twilight. 7’Moreover, they shall take some of the blood and put it on the two doorposts and on the lintel of the houses in which they eat it. 8They shall eat the flesh that same night, roasted with fire, and they shall eat it with unleavened bread and bitter herbs.…
Are they commanded to eat something that represents the lamb? Or are they to eat the lamb?
Now, the question is how does a wafer of unleavened bread become the lamb? That, is the essence of faith. If we believe Christ, is truly THE CHRIST, then we need to believe it when he says…“THIS IS…”
When Christ says 'THIS IS…" it IS.
He is the same Lord that told the Israelites that I AM is here. Interestingly the words that sent him to His PASSION were the words I AM.
This is all to be ACCEPTED through FAITH by US. I am not saying I myself do this. Please understand that I am no Saint. When I do find myself coming to my senses, I see the wisdom behinds Gods plan. Yes, I sometimes do think I am wiser than God…lol. I do have “pride issues” that is for sure.
God bless.
P
Porknpie
Guest
Benhur -Hi D,
Are you sure the letter dealt with Catholics or even like you and I today where we just differ on literal or figurative but not on Incarnation?
Yet we can read the writings of the Church through time, no one differing on whether it was literal or figurative only. Not until the 16th c., did men believe otherwise, disagreeing with the Church.
And this One Faith on the Eucharist was throughout the world:
- Spain
- Italy
- Turkey
- Jerusalem
- India
"He did not say, 'This is the symbol of My Body, and this, of My Blood,’ but, what is set before us, but that it is transformed by means of the Eucharistic action into Flesh and Blood." Theodore of Mopsuestia, Commentary on Matthew 26:26 (ante A.D. 428).
J
JMM1957
Guest
We certainly believe it was Catholics he was writing to in the Church at Smyrna, not saying that all there believed alike though, some evidently were taking more of a figurative stance on the Eucharist. This was the reason for his letter, to set straight the teaching that the Eucharist “is” the flesh and blood of Our Lord. The flesh that died on the cross is the same flesh that we partake of in the Eucharist. Like others have said and have quoted ECF’s, the early Church taught the literal interpretation of Jesus words, nothing from John 6:51 and onward indicates Jesus was speaking figuratively at all.Hi D,
Are you sure the letter dealt with Catholics or even like you and I today where we just differ on literal or figurative but not on Incarnation?
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