If John 6 is speaking of the eucharist, how can non Catholics be saved?

[rcwitness]

Hi ed,

just that we are to do as He did, at the Last Supper. He said “this is " not " it is going to be”. Another words, He did not differentiate between pre and post glorification of Hid flesh when instituted the rite/sacrament.

The transfiguration revealed His true glorified self. But we don’t need to see that to believe we are receiving Him at Communion.

“Blessed are those who believe without seeing.”

 

[benhur]

If we see the concept of literally eating His flesh and blood outside of the means in which He provided it, then we can never understand it.

The figurative is the simplest to understand, that even a child could get it.

If we see Eucharistic Communion as only a symbol of Spiritually believing, then He used a symbol of something oppositional to what He was Teaching in John 6

Only if you take a literal view,like the unbelievers did.

What I mean is, if the disciples understood him literally and were wrong so that’s why they left, then why would Jesus establish the Covenant memorial after this false understanding which disciples left Him over?

Actually, from your pov ,the communion was established after the literal viewing of the unbelievers. We know they took it literally, and certainly not figuratively.

You also must understand they were not true disciples *from the beginning.*It was His goal that they would leave, and stop following Him for the wrong reasons, which they did way before this discourse.

He Taught the Word of God, able to save through belief. Yet for Him to save men, He also needed to die in the flesh. After this, in His risen state, He would come to be with us in His Eucharistic. Just as His risen body passed through the upper room door, He can hide under the appearance of our gifts of bread and wine. This requires faith and not proof of miracles. This is the continuous gift of faith and knowing His hidden manna. Where the body is, there the Eagles will gather. Where His body is, there will be the body of Apostolic Teachings. Where His body and blood are, there the faithful need not see to believe, but believe to see and partake with believe.

Well, where two or more are gathered in His name , there He is. He also inhabits the praises of His people.
Not sure that we need to gather around His flesh. The emphasis should be where does He gather to .

Blessings

 

[Here_For_Donuts]

St. Ignatius (35-107 AD), third bishop of Antioch and disciple of the Apostle John, in his letter to the church at Smyrnea:

newadvent.org/fathers/0109.htm

Chapter 7 of the above letter is pretty clear about the Real Presence in the Eucharist.

It’s also worth noting that the earliest Christians in Rome were suspected of cannibalism due to the way they spoke of eating “flesh and blood” in such literal terms.

 

[rcwitness]

The figurative is the simplest to understand, that even a child could get it.

Actually, I think it’s simple to explain, “We bless (thank and pray over) the bread and wine like Jesus Taught, and we believe it is then His body. We do this so we all receive Him together.”

The idea that it’s to remember Him, is funny, because I never thought eating bread and wine helps remember Him.

What I meant there was if we don’t see Him referring to His Eucharistic Communion, we wouldn’t understand.

Only if you take a literal view,like the unbelievers did.
Actually, from your pov ,the communion was established after the literal viewing of the unbelievers. We know they took it literally, and certainly not figuratively.

Not sure I follow you here. You yourself agreed that Communion (breaking bread) among believers is necessary. What I meant was, if the disciples who left at the discourse thought He was speaking of literally eating to partake of Him but we’re wrong, why did He establish “Breaking Bread”, which is literal eating to partake of Him?

You also must understand they were not true disciples *from the beginning.*It was His goal that they would leave, and stop following Him for the wrong reasons, which they did way before this discourse.

Yes. Because they did not believe “properly” as you rightly said before. And His test was to prophesy about His sacrifice and how they would need to partake and eat of it. Just like Abraham was asked to believe and obey a very hard command, and God ended up providing the ram. Jesus commanded a very hard saying, and He provided His Eucharist.

Well, where two or more are gathered in His name , there He is.

How would He be there in the context of that verse?

He also inhabits the praises of His people.

And His people are nourished and brought together by observing the breaking of bread.

Not sure that we need to gather around His flesh.

Now you are reverting and saying we dont need to break bread together?

The emphasis should be where does He gather to.

Absolutely:thumbsup:

 

[JMM1957]

The figurative is the simplest to understand, that even a child could get it.

So, its just because its the easiest to understand? You don’t even understand the Trinity, so how would you explain it to a child so they get it? If we go through the Bible using the simplest explanation (figurative) for every “hard saying”, we would have things pretty messed up, don’t you think?

 

[JMM1957]

You also must understand they were not true disciples *from the beginning.*It was His goal that they would leave, and stop following Him for the wrong reasons, which they did way before this discourse.

Jesus would never have a “goal” of someone not following Him. God desires all people to be saved. **We **make the choice to not follow Him.

 

[Michael68]

Jesus would never have a “goal” of someone not following Him. God desires all people to be saved. **We **make the choice to not follow Him.

I have to agree. Jesus’ s goal was not to lose anybody, not lose some on purpose. That goes against scripture.

 

[Duane1966]

The figurative is the simplest to understand, that even a child could get it.

If Jesus is being figurative, and He says this:

55 For my flesh is** true food,** and my blood is true drink.

does that make Him a liar? If you figuratively eat an apple, did you really eat an apple? I don’t know anyone who says that when you figuratively consume food, you really eat food. Ben you can be the first.

p.s. My daughter says the minute most children hear Jesus saying “flesh is true food”, they know He is not being figurative (if they know what figurative means). She thinks the confusion is caused because, in her words:“adults seem to get dumber as they get older.”

 

[rcwitness]

I have to agree. Jesus’ s goal was not to lose anybody, not lose some on purpose. That goes against scripture.

I agree, but to be fair to ben, I will assume he meant that Jesus did lay before them what He knew would be a stumbling block. They pressed Him for signs after receiving several. He did not need them disrupting His mission.

I believe ben meant this and not that Jesus desired them to fall away.

 

[Porknpie]

You also must understand they were not true disciples from the beginning.

Yes, we are true disciples IF we follow what he says…

Wonderful apologetic to be Catholic, and to believe his words, to follow him, as the Church has professed for 2,000 years: “This IS my body”

It was His goal that they would leave,

True: he allowed them (Jn 6) to leave, never correcting them as they took him literally, and he was speaking literally.

and stop following Him for the wrong reasons,

100% agree.

 

[KathleenGee]

These are great answers, Ben Hur, that members have shared with you.

We have to fall back on the tradition of faith going back into salvation history.

The Breaking of the Bread has always been sacred and the means of giving thanks…the Be’Kaa is the memorial…and we must not deduce Christ to mere symbolism but actual.

What may help is understanding that Christ entered through the Gate of Heaven on the Feast of the ATonement…where the prior High Priest would enter the Inner Sanctuary to the Mercy Seat and sprinkle the blood of sacrificed animals as atonement for the peoples’ sins.

When Christ entered heaven, He became before the Heavenly Father…wounded and triumphant and from the altar ministers to us here on earth His Word, His Body, Blood, Soul and Divinity into the Tree of Life, the Church, and the fruit of nourishment --in the Outer Form of the Breaking of the Bread…and with Melchizedek’s offering bread and wine…the fulfillment of the future perpetual sacrifice for the remission of sins.

A Catholic’s greatest work is not works of mercy but standing before the altar of the Lord every Resurrection Sunday to give testimony to the world that His Real Presence is here ministering to us through the saving and redeeming power of His Blood.

Christ died once on the Cross and from the cross, not the resurrection, from it was said He raised all up to Himself. A priest can putter around any inside of a Catholic Church. But when Mass begins, the priest enters the altar and the Presence of God fills the entire church with His presence. We are then no longer in linear time, but now in God’s space,
in the Eternal Being.

 

[benhur]

The idea that it’s to remember Him, is funny, because I never thought eating bread and wine helps remember Him.

Well Jesus is the one using the word "remember’’, thru eating and drinking the consecrated elements . He is the Bread of Life. We do as He did.

Blessings

 

[benhur]

Jesus would never have a “goal” of someone not following Him. God desires all people to be saved. **We **make the choice to not follow Him.

Quite right JMM. I explained more fully in another post. Please do not assume I meant Jesus wanted to them not follow ever, but later, to come back when they really believed etc…Kind of like they had needed to see they needed a Physician. Also a bit like when Paul says to turn over a stubborn soul to Satan, so that they may be saved, later.

Blessings

 

[benhur]

If Jesus is being figurative, and He says this:does that make Him a liar? If you figuratively eat an apple, did you really eat an apple? I don’t know anyone who says that when you figuratively consume food, you really eat food. Ben you can be the first.

p.s. My daughter says the minute most children hear Jesus saying “flesh is true food”, they know He is not being figurative (if they know what figurative means). She thinks the confusion is caused because, in her words:“adults seem to get dumber as they get older.”

It is the true food and drink that when you partake you shall not die like those in the wilderness. Last I heard all who partake communion still die, leading me to say He spoke figuratively, spiritually.

Blessings

 

[benhur]

Yes, we are true disciples IF we follow what he says…

Hi Pp,

Agree.

Blessings

 

[Duane1966]

It is the true food and drink that when you partake you shall not die like those in the wilderness. Last I heard all who partake communion still die, leading me to say He spoke figuratively, spiritually.

Blessings

But then if He is speaking figuratively, how can He not be lying when He calls His** flesh** true food?

Ben, would it be okay for someone in a legal proceeding to swear to tell the truth, lie about what they were stating to be true, and then say: " I did not commit perjury, I was being figurative when I took that oath, you just misunderstood me when I swore to tell the truth," because that really is what you seem to be saying?

 

[rcwitness]

Well Jesus is the one using the word "remember’’, thru eating and drinking the consecrated elements . He is the Bread of Life. We do as He did.

Blessings

Yes, He commands us to “Do this” “…in remembrance”

I’d like to address this when I have a little more time. I believe it’s a difference of recognizing our part in receiving worthily. That is, we bring His life, and especially His willing death which bore our sins in the body and blood being eternally offered and continually being drawn upon in time, to mind and heart. Not re-sacrificed, but able to feed always for eternity.

I notice you also mention the bread and wine are “consecrated”. What does that mean to you, if not changed into what we recognize it as?

It is the true food and drink that when you partake you shall not die like those in the wilderness. Last I heard all who partake communion still die, leading me to say He spoke figuratively, spiritually.

Blessings

You’ve said this before, but it’s not physical death His life and sacrifice saves us from, but Spiritual. So we believe He will raise our physical bodies to unite with our souls again.

You act as though believers in a symbolic only breaking bread do not die in this world.

 

[zz912]

It is the true food and drink that when you partake you shall not die like those in the wilderness. Last I heard all who partake communion still die, leading me to say He spoke figuratively, spiritually.

Figurative is not the same as spiritual. Spiritual is real. Spiritual life and spiritual death are REAL. They aren’t symbols or figurative. They are real. They aren’t MATERIAL life or death, but they are real.

 

[rcwitness]

Figurative is not the same as spiritual. Spiritual is real. Spiritual life and spiritual death are REAL. They aren’t symbols or figurative. They are real. They aren’t MATERIAL life or death, but they are real.

It is also hidden from the carnal mind and senses! We partake of the Lord’s body and blood through faith, NOT carnally!

 

[Michael68]

Imo, a lot of Protestants don’t understand communion and how could they? They have been taught its a soda cracker and some grape drink you do once a month or whenever the pastor feels like it. This takes time since the mistranslation is well indoctrinated.