If justification begins at Baptism, how do you explain St. Cornelius?

[De_Maria]

According to many Catholic Apologists, justification begins at Baptism. Here is a representative example by Jimmy Akins.

*"Chapter 6 [Trent] does into more detail about this turning to God, called a “preparation for justification,” and says that in it those who are to be justified understand themselves to be sinners, turn themselves from the fear of God’s judgement, and are raised to hope, trusting that God will help them for Christ’s sake, that they begin to love Him as the fountain of all righteousness, and are moved to hate and detest their sins, and that they finally resolve to be baptized and begin a new life. This take us to the brink of our initial justification, which is received either when baptism takes place (or before, through the baptism of desire)…

…The Catholic church is thus firmly in line with Scripture when it says that baptism is the means by which we are incorporated into Christ, and thus that baptism is the means through which we receive justification."
ewtn.com/library/ANSWERS/JUSTIF.HTM*

According to my understanding of Trent, justification begins at conversion, when God calls the man to turn to Him:

• CHAPTER V
  THE NECESSITY OF PREPARATION FOR JUSTIFICATION IN ADULTS, AND WHENCE IT PROCEEDS

It is furthermore declared that in adults the beginning of that justification must proceed from the predisposing grace of God through Jesus Christ, that is, from His vocation, whereby, without any merits on their part, they are called; that they who by sin had been cut off from God, may be disposed through His quickening and helping grace to convert themselves to their own justification by freely assenting to and cooperating with that grace; so that, while God touches the heart of man through the illumination of the Holy Ghost, man himself neither does absolutely nothing while receiving that inspiration, since he can also reject it, nor yet is he able by his own free will and without the grace of God to move himself to justice in His sight.

Hence, when it is said in the sacred writings:
Turn ye to me, and I will turn to you,[19] we are reminded of our liberty; and when we reply:
Convert us, O Lord, to thee, and we shall be converted,[20] we confess that we need the grace of God.*

The CCC says the same:
1987 **The grace of the Holy Spirit has the power to justify us, that is, to cleanse us from our sins and to communicate to us “the righteousness of God through faith in Jesus Christ” **and through Baptism:34…

Notice how two ways are here identified, by the righteousness of God through faith AND through Baptism.

1989 The first work of the grace of the Holy Spirit is conversion, effecting justification in accordance with Jesus’ proclamation at the beginning of the Gospel: “Repent, for the kingdom of heaven is at hand.” Moved by grace, man turns toward God and away from sin, thus accepting forgiveness and righteousness from on high. "Justification is not only the remission of sins, but also the sanctification and renewal of the interior man.

The first work is conversion which effects justification.

This is clearly seen in the RCIA process. People who convert turn to God and begin to live according to the Commandments. Despising their sins and asking God for forgiveness.

Then they ask for Baptism, they are Baptized, born again children of God.

And then they continue to be justified bothy by their faith and works and in the Sacraments of reconciliation, eucharist and annointing. As well as the others, but these are more straight forward examples of justification, the forgiveness of sins and uniting one to God.

So, the question remains. How do you explain St. Cornelius and many others, if “justification” begins at Baptism?

Sincerely,

De Maria

 

[De_Maria]

Oh, sorry. Perhaps a little bit of explanation is in order.

If we look at Acts 10, we find that this man, St. Cornelius, was devout and just, long before he even met St. Peter. Not only he, but his entire house and much of his cohort. And it is St. Peter who baptized them:
*
1There was a certain man in Caesarea called Cornelius, a centurion of the band called the Italian band,

2A devout man, and one that feared God with all his house, which gave much alms to the people, and prayed to God alway.
…
22And they said, Cornelius the centurion, a just man, and one that feareth God, and of good report among all the nation of the Jews, was warned from God by an holy angel to send for thee into his house, and to hear words of thee.*

Yet the claim is made that the process of justification does not begin until one is justified. In my opinion, the Church teaches differently, as I explained in the opening post.

What say you?

Sincerely,

De Maria

 

[TomD123]

From what i’ve heard is that he was justified by baptism of desire. Baptism of desire has the capability to justify in certain circumstances but it is not the ordinary method of justification and one who is justified in this way is still required to be baptized. Someone else might have a better explanation

Tom

 

[MarcoPolo]

Perhaps more from the council of Trent will help shed light:*Of this Justification the causes are these: the final cause indeed is the glory of God and of Jesus Christ, and life everlasting; while the efficient cause is a merciful God who washes and sanctifies gratuitously, signing, and anointing with the holy Spirit of promise, who is the pledge of our inheritance; but the meritorious cause is His most beloved only-begotten, our Lord Jesus Christ, who, when we were enemies, for the exceeding charity wherewith he loved us, merited Justification for us by His most holy Passion on the wood of the cross, and made satisfaction for us unto God the Father; the instrumental cause is the sacrament of baptism, which is the sacrament of faith, without which (faith) no man was ever justified; lastly, the alone formal cause is the justice of God, not that whereby He Himself is just, but that whereby He maketh us just, that, to wit, with which we being endowed by Him, are renewed in the spirit of our mind, and we are not only reputed, but are truly called, and are, just, receiving justice within us, each one according to his own measure, which the Holy Ghost distributes to every one as He wills, and according to each one’s proper disposition and co-operation.*You see how depending on what one is emphasizing, the causes of justification are multi-fold and are, in concert, a singular conversion event. Kind of like how Christ’s Passion is not reducible to the Agony in the Garden, or the Carrying of the Cross or the Crucifixion, or the Resurrection, etc… so when we say we are saved by Christ’s blood, it is not intended to exclude the other necessary occasions of that episode.

 

[De_Maria]

From what i’ve heard is that he was justified by baptism of desire. Baptism of desire has the capability to justify in certain circumstances but it is not the ordinary method of justification and one who is justified in this way is still required to be baptized. Someone else might have a better explanation

Tom

Baptism of desire takes effect after one is dead. St. Cornelius was still alive.

 

[De_Maria]

Perhaps more from the council of Trent will help shed light:Of this Justification the causes are these: the final cause indeed is the glory of God and of Jesus Christ, and life everlasting; while the efficient cause is a merciful God who washes and sanctifies gratuitously, signing, and anointing with the holy Spirit of promise, who is the pledge of our inheritance; but the meritorious cause is His most beloved only-begotten, our Lord Jesus Christ, who, when we were enemies, for the exceeding charity wherewith he loved us, merited Justification for us by His most holy Passion on the wood of the cross, and made satisfaction for us unto God the Father; the instrumental cause is the sacrament of baptism, which is the sacrament of faith, without which (faith) no man was ever justified; lastly, the alone formal cause is the justice of God, not that whereby He Himself is just, but that whereby He maketh us just, that, to wit, with which we being endowed by Him, are renewed in the spirit of our mind, and we are not only reputed, but are truly called, and are, just, receiving justice within us, each one according to his own measure, which the Holy Ghost distributes to every one as He wills, and according to each one’s proper disposition and co-operation.You see how depending on what one is emphasizing, the causes of justification are multi-fold and are, in concert, a singular conversion event. Kind of like how Christ’s Passion is not reducible to the Agony in the Garden, or the Carrying of the Cross or the Crucifixion, or the Resurrection, etc… so when we say we are saved by Christ’s blood, it is not intended to exclude the other necessary occasions of that episode.

Please explain what you mean. Or, perhaps you don’t understand what I’m saying. St. Cornelius was alive and well and UNBAPTIZED when he was described as a just man in Scripture. Obviously, since his entire household was also devout and just, he was not a recent convert but had been faithful to God for many years.

Then, St. Peter baptized him. Now, if Baptism is the beginning of the process of justification, how do we account for those many years before he was baptized wherein he was a devout and God fearing man, whom God loved so much, that He sent an angel to his house?

Sincerely,

De Maria

 

[Aelred_Minor]

Baptism of desire takes effect after one is dead. St. Cornelius was still alive.

False. One who has not been justified in life cannot be justified after death. Therefore, baptism of desire must take place prior to death.

 

[Aelred_Minor]

Please explain what you mean. Or, perhaps you don’t understand what I’m saying. St. Cornelius was alive and well and UNBAPTIZED when he was described as a just man in Scripture. Obviously, since his entire household was also devout and just, he was not a recent convert but had been faithful to God for many years.

Then, St. Peter baptized him. Now, if Baptism is the beginning of the process of justification, how do we account for those many years before he was baptized wherein he was a devout and God fearing man, whom God loved so much, that He sent an angel to his house?

Sincerely,

De Maria

Remember that the word “just” or “justified” can be used in different ways. Joseph is also described as a just man, but he wasn’t baptized either. For a more extreme example, a judge may be a just judge but also be in a state of mortal sin.

Similarly when it comes to the idea of a process of justification, we can speak of it in different ways. There is the preparation for justification, then the actual justification itself. When the did the justification “begin”, at the moment the process was finally consummated and the person was actually justified, or earlier as the person was being brought incrementally closer to justification? It’s important we discern the underlying meaning of how different people talk about this subject.

 

[De_Maria]

False. One who has not been justified in life cannot be justified after death. Therefore, baptism of desire must take place prior to death.

Show me from either Scripture or the Catechism. Because the Catechism says:

1259** For catechumens who die before their Baptism**, their explicit desire to receive it, together with repentance for their sins, and charity, assures them the salvation that they were not able to receive through the sacrament.

Also, show me how this applies to St. Cornelius. Because he did not die before his baptism.

Sincerely,

De Maria

 

[De_Maria]

Remember that the word “just” or “justified” can be used in different ways. Joseph is also described as a just man, but he wasn’t baptized either. For a more extreme example, a judge may be a just judge but also be in a state of mortal sin.

But everyone agrees that Abraham was justified and he wasn’t baptized.

Besides, I am talking about the beginning of the PROCESS of justification. When does it begin. I believe the Catholic Church teaches it begins at conversion as I have shown from Scripture and the Catechism.

Similarly when it comes to the idea of a process of justification, we can speak of it in different ways. There is the preparation for justification, then the actual justification itself. When the did the justification “begin”, at the moment the process was finally consummated and the person was actually justified, or earlier as the person was being brought incrementally closer to justification? It’s important we discern the underlying meaning of how different people talk about this subject.

I’m talking about what the Catholic Church teaches. I believe some Catholic apologists (I singled out Jimmy Akin but I know others that teach it as well) are interpreting the Catholic doctrine incorrectly.

So, please return to the question at hand. St. Cornelius obviously was well on the way in his justification before he was baptized. I believe this fits the Catholic Doctrine perfectly.

While at the same time throwing a big wrench into the interpretation that Baptism is the beginning of justification.

Sincerely,

De Maria

 

[Aelred_Minor]

Show me from either Scripture or the Catechism. Because the Catechism says:

1259** For catechumens who die before their Baptism**, their explicit desire to receive it, together with repentance for their sins, and charity, assures them the salvation that they were not able to receive through the sacrament.

Also, show me how this applies to St. Cornelius. Because he did not die before his baptism.

Sincerely,

De Maria

Your catechism quote doesn’t say anything about catechumens being justified after their death. Would your position then be that catechumens go to hell, only to be ransomed out if it sometime later (whether very soon or not)? I grant that something similar seems to have happened prior to the death and resurrection of Christ, but I’ll get to that in the next post.

This subject potentially applies to Cornelius because if baptism of desire happens before rather than after the moment of death then that leaves open the possibility that he could have had baptism of desire, though I see no reason to believe he definitely did.

 

[Aelred_Minor]

But everyone agrees that Abraham was justified and he wasn’t baptized.

Not in the fullest sense, they don’t. Indeed, dark Sheol, the Limbo of the Fathers, has generally been identified with the “bosom of Abraham” of the New Testament. So you could actually say Abraham (prior to Christ’s descent into hell) is a prime example of the unjustified just man, so to speak. St. Joseph would presumably be another prime example. Because they still had original sin, because they still had not been justified in the fullest sense, men and women who died without personal mortal sin before the death of Christ could not enter heaven until Christ redeemed them posthumously. I’ve never encountered so much as a speculation of such posthumous redemption after the Resurrection, presumably since baptism, whether by water, blood, or desire, would seem to be available to all people, depending on one’s interpretation of baptism of desire (and with the perennial difficulty of unbaptized babies)

Besides, I am talking about the beginning of the PROCESS of justification. When does it begin. I believe the Catholic Church teaches it begins at conversion as I have shown from Scripture and the Catechism.

Exactly. You are talking about, and you’ve found Church documents that seem to talk about justification as a long process beginning with the first actual graces given to prepare a person to be justified. Mr. Akin, on the other hand, seems to have been narrowing in on the moment the person is actually truely justified, with both original and personal sin forgiven. This narrower focus makes sense from Mr. Akin’s point of view as a convert from Protestantism and an apologist with a Protestant focus when it comes to matters of justification, since to most Protestants justification is when you are made right with God, and this does not happen in the fullest, most meaningful sense until baptism (of whatever sort).

Baptism could even be seen as the beginning of a process, in that we as Catholics don’t believe in Once Saved Always Saved. We need to work out our salvation with fear and trembling, and for most of us baptism is only the beginning of that Christian life. That doesn’t mean in another sense the process of justification couldn’t be or hasn’t been spoken of as beginning with actual grace given in preparation for conversion and baptism, for adult converts to Christianity.

Again, we need to keep our minds broad and realistic when approaching topics like these, otherwise we might find ourselves condemning good, orthodox writers who simply have a somewhat different emphasis and idiom.

 

[Ignatius]

Perhaps more from the council of Trent will help shed light:*
Of this Justification the causes are these*: the final cause indeed is the glory of God and of Jesus Christ, and life everlasting; while the efficient cause is a merciful God who washes and sanctifies gratuitously, signing, and anointing with the holy Spirit of promise, who is the pledge of our inheritance; but the meritorious cause is His most beloved only-begotten, our Lord Jesus Christ, who, when we were enemies, for the exceeding charity wherewith he loved us, merited Justification for us by His most holy Passion on the wood of the cross, and made satisfaction for us unto God the Father; the instrumental cause is the sacrament of baptism, which is the sacrament of faith, without which (faith) no man was ever justified; lastly, the alone formal cause is the justice of God, not that whereby He Himself is just, but that whereby He maketh us just, that, to wit, with which we being endowed by Him, are renewed in the spirit of our mind, and we are not only reputed, but are truly called, and are, just, receiving justice within us, each one according to his own measure, which the Holy Ghost distributes to every one as He wills, and according to each one’s proper disposition and co-operation.
You see how depending on what one is emphasizing, the causes of justification are multi-fold and are, in concert, a singular conversion event. Kind of like how Christ’s Passion is not reducible to the Agony in the Garden, or the Carrying of the Cross or the Crucifixion, or the Resurrection, etc… so when we say we are saved by Christ’s blood, it is not intended to exclude the other necessary occasions of that episode.

Awesome! This is the explanation with the clarity and comprehensive explanation that should satisfy any doubter who has a sincere desire for the truth. Thank you so much.

 

[De_Maria]

Your catechism quote doesn’t say anything about catechumens being justified after their death. Would your position then be that catechumens go to hell, only to be ransomed out if it sometime later (whether very soon or not)? I grant that something similar seems to have happened prior to the death and resurrection of Christ, but I’ll get to that in the next post.

This subject potentially applies to Cornelius because if baptism of desire happens before rather than after the moment of death then that leaves open the possibility that he could have had baptism of desire, though I see no reason to believe he definitely did.

Then, if you believe that Baptism of Desire occurs before Sacramental Baptism, you agree with me. Because Baptism of Desire is a form of JUSTIFICATION.

In addition, have you ever heard of the Purgative Way. It is the process of justification described during the life of the beginner in the Spiritual life and it begins at conversion:

*Initiation In The Purgative Way

The Purgative way, of course, begins with an initial conversion. Scripture is clear that following Christ involves being united to him and other believers through baptism; a baptism which requires faith that, as the Son of God, Christ lived, died, and was restored to a new, immortal life; it is this new life he then offers us to take part in through baptismal waters, continued repentance, obedience, and devotion.

*The first step I’d therefore suggest to begin in the Purgative way is to make a profession of faith, which Christianity has best summed up in what she calls the Nicene Creed (I’ve replaced the “we” with “I”).

I believe in one God, the Father, the Almighty, Maker of heaven and earth, of all that is seen and unseen. … I look for the resurrection of the dead, and the life of the world to come. Amen.

*The next thing to do is to get into contact with a priest or pastor about being baptized, perhaps with the help of someone – a friend or family member – who is familiar with the process. In Catholicism, if you’ve already been baptized then the next step is to be confirmed. If you’ve already been confirmed then the next step, if you’ve been away from practicing your faith for a while, is to go to confession so you can be, as they say, restored to full communion…
*
soberinebriationblog.blogspot.com/2008/11/salvation-through-purgative.html

 

[De_Maria]

Not in the fullest sense, they don’t. Indeed, dark Sheol, the Limbo of the Fathers, has generally been identified with the “bosom of Abraham” of the New Testament. So you could actually say Abraham (prior to Christ’s descent into hell) is a prime example of the unjustified just man, so to speak. St. Joseph would presumably be another prime example. Because they still had original sin, because they still had not been justified in the fullest sense, men and women who died without personal mortal sin before the death of Christ could not enter heaven until Christ redeemed them posthumously. I’ve never encountered so much as a speculation of such posthumous redemption after the Resurrection, presumably since baptism, whether by water, blood, or desire, would seem to be available to all people, depending on one’s interpretation of baptism of desire (and with the perennial difficulty of unbaptized babies)

Thank you. That agrees with what I’m saying. He was not justified in the FULLEST SENSE. But he was justified in some sense. Therefore, he was well on the way along the process of justification.

Exactly. You are talking about, and you’ve found Church documents that seem to talk about justification as a long process beginning with the first actual graces given to prepare a person to be justified. Mr. Akin, on the other hand, seems to have been narrowing in on the moment the person is actually truely justified, with both original and personal sin forgiven. This narrower focus makes sense from Mr. Akin’s point of view as a convert from Protestantism and an apologist with a Protestant focus when it comes to matters of justification, since to most Protestants justification is when you are made right with God, and this does not happen in the fullest, most meaningful sense until baptism (of whatever sort).

Exactly! My problem with that is that he and others take his “protestant sensitivity” to be universal and begin speaking in this sense to everyone. Causing a great deal of confusion in the Faithful, because they are never told that Mr. Akins and company are simply inviting Protestants to the fold.

I’ve seen articles by Akins and others claiming that the Church teaches “Grace alone” and “Faith alone” and Christ alone". As though the differences between Luther, Calvin and the Church were merely semantics.

But it is not a matter of semantics. They are true qualitative and material differences in the understanding of the Gospel of Jesus Christ. I have every respect in the world for devout Protestants. But it does not change the fact that they are practicing a deficient form of the Gospel.

Anyway, it sounds to me as though you and I differ only in semantics. Let me know if you agree.

Baptism could even be seen as the beginning of a process, in that we as Catholics don’t believe in Once Saved Always Saved. We need to work out our salvation with fear and trembling, and for most of us baptism is only the beginning of that Christian life. That doesn’t mean in another sense the process of justification couldn’t be or hasn’t been spoken of as beginning with actual grace given in preparation for conversion and baptism, for adult converts to Christianity.

As I said, that’s just confusing. The Catholic Church teaches that the process of justification begins at conversion.

Again, we need to keep our minds broad and realistic when approaching topics like these, otherwise we might find ourselves condemning good, orthodox writers who simply have a somewhat different emphasis and idiom.

I don’t condemn them. But if they continue teaching this and other novelties, they are not orthodox. Errors are errors. St. Cyprian found that out when he, unintentionally, was teaching unorthodox and heretical things and the Church came looking for him to correct him. He corrected his error and became a Saint.

How many others refused to correct their errors? And how can anyone correct their error if no one informs them?

These folks need to be stopped from falsely presenting certain aspects of Catholicism. That is my opinion.

And if it turns out that I’m the one who is wrong, I’ll gladly stop. But so far, the evidence points the other way.

Sincerely,

De Maria

 

[De_Maria]

Awesome! This is the explanation with the clarity and comprehensive explanation that should satisfy any doubter who has a sincere desire for the truth. Thank you so much.

But it doesn’t address the fact that justification begins before Baptism. Have you ever heard of the purgative way?

soberinebriationblog.blogspot.com/2008/11/salvation-through-purgative.html
Initiation In The Purgative Way

The Purgative way, of course, begins with an initial conversion. Scripture is clear that following Christ involves being united to him and other believers through baptism; a baptism which requires faith that, as the Son of God, Christ lived, died, and was restored to a new, immortal life; it is this new life he then offers us to take part in through baptismal waters, continued repentance, obedience, and devotion.

*The first step I’d therefore suggest to begin in the Purgative way is to make a profession of faith, which Christianity has best summed up in what she calls the Nicene Creed (I’ve replaced the “we” with “I”).

I believe in one God, the Father, the Almighty, Maker of heaven and earth, of all that is seen and unseen.

I believe in one Lord, Jesus Christ, the only Son of God, eternally begotten of the Father, God from God, Light from Light, true God from true God, begotten, not made, one in Being with the Father. Through him all things were made. For us (men) and for our salvation he came down from heaven: by the power of the Holy Spirit he was born of the Virgin Mary, and became man. For our sake he was crucified under Pontius Pilate; he suffered, died, and was buried. On the third day he rose again in fulfillment of the Scriptures, he ascended into heaven and is seated at the right hand of the Father. He will come again in glory to judge the living and the dead, And his kingdom will have no end.

I believe in the Holy Spirit, the Lord, the Giver of Life, Who proceeds from the Father (and the Son) With the Father and the Son he is worshipped and glorified, He has spoken through the Prophets. I believe in one holy catholic and apostolic Church. I acknowledge one baptism for the forgiveness of sins. I look for the resurrection of the dead, and the life of the world to come. Amen.

*The next thing to do is to get into contact with a priest or pastor about being baptized, perhaps with the help of someone – a friend or family member – who is familiar with the process. In Catholicism, if you’ve already been baptized then the next step is to be confirmed. If you’ve already been confirmed then the next step, if you’ve been away from practicing your faith for a while, is to go to confession so you can be, as they say, restored to full communion.

*Finally (this last step is actually involved in all the steps, and continues on until we reach the Beatific Vision) begin to develop a prayer life, grow in virtue and devotion – such things as adoration, reading Sacred Scripture, learning more about your faith, going to church regularly.

These steps, then, begin the Purgative stage, which involves, as the name implies, purging our selves from those things that are not of God. It entails a conversion of faith, what some people refer to as a born-again experience, which is often accompanied by emotions of gratitude, zeal, the feeling of newness, hope and the like. This experience flows over into the will, and naturally leads one to leave behind serious sin – what Catholics call mortal sin.,

The purgative way, as its name implies, is a process of justification before God. A process of changing from a sinner to a man of God.

Sincerely,

De Maria

 

[someguy14]

Justification begins, when God says it begins. Only God is Just. Therefore, none can claim to be just, God recieves all the glory. That is how come the Holy Spirit is necessary. None is good, no not one. God is just though and it is God through a true pure hearted believer, that is just and purifies each of Gods own.

John 14:26
But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance , whatsoever I have said unto you.

The Holy Spirit cleanses us.

May God bless.

 

[MarcoPolo]

Then, St. Peter baptized him. Now, if Baptism is the beginning of the process of justification, how do we account for those many years before he was baptized wherein he was a devout and God fearing man, whom God loved so much, that He sent an angel to his house?

I can’t say if I understand you fully or not. But I think Akin’s article explains that when he said: “the brink of our initial justification, which is received either when baptism takes place (or before, through the baptism of desire)” and “Our justification begins when we initially receive righteousness at the beginning of our lives as Christians.”

When one turns toward God, that is in a sense the “beginning” of justification, sealed and made complete at the rite of baptism, even though one could say they had the baptism of desire from the start. It can be confusing because Catholics also see the whole of justification as a process, not a completed event reducible to an hour, minute, and second. I can’t speak entirely for Jimmy, but when he says baptism is “the means” and includes a baptism of desire, that would encompass Cornelius’ desire to obey God’s word and receive the appropriate sacrament of incorporation from the moment he turned to God.

 

[dcana]

Oh, sorry. Perhaps a little bit of explanation is in order.

If we look at Acts 10, we find that this man, St. Cornelius, was devout and just, long before he even met St. Peter. Not only he, but his entire house and much of his cohort. And it is St. Peter who baptized them:
*
1There was a certain man in Caesarea called Cornelius, a centurion of the band called the Italian band,

2A devout man, and one that feared God with all his house*, which gave much alms to the people, and prayed to God alway.
…
22And they said, Cornelius the centurion, a just man, and one that feareth God, and of good report among all the nation of the Jews, was warned from God by an holy angel to send for thee into his house, and to hear words of thee.

Yet the claim is made that the process of justification does not begin until one is justified. In my opinion, the Church teaches differently, as I explained in the opening post.

What say you?

Sincerely,

De Maria

Remember that the word “just” or “justified” can be used in different ways. Joseph is also described as a just man, but he wasn’t baptized either. For a more extreme example, a judge may be a just judge but also be in a state of mortal sin.

Similarly when it comes to the idea of a process of justification, we can speak of it in different ways. There is the preparation for justification, then the actual justification itself. When the did the justification “begin”, at the moment the process was finally consummated and the person was actually justified, or earlier as the person was being brought incrementally closer to justification? It’s important we discern the underlying meaning of how different people talk about this subject.

What Aelred Minor said. Forget about the New Testament. Just look at the Old Testament. It is chock-full of references to just men and women and about the characteristics of the “just” verses the “unjust.” The word is being used in different ways. None of these people were “justified,” as Aelred says elsewhere, in the fullest sense of the term, which only became possible with the Passion, Death, and Resurrection of Christ. The former sense was that a person is “just” if they keep God’s Law, the 10 Commandments and the 613 mitzvot, that is if they lived “just” and “God-fearing” lives, which indeed they were if they were keeping God’s Commandments. However, they were not justified in the sense we used the term, that is, they did not have the indwelling of the Holy Trinity who comes to us at Holy Baptism, washing away all our sins in the Blood of the Lamb and making us true Children of God in Christ, and co-heirs with Him of eternal life. They did not receive sanctifying grace, which allows one to enter Heaven and without which nobody can enter Heaven. Gotta watch the same word being used in different ways. They’re tricky. “Salvation” is another big one. You can see “salvation” or “saved” all over the OT too, but it doesn’t mean what we mean by “salvation.”

That’s my take on it anyway.

 

[De_Maria]

Hi Someguy, thanks for responding. I take it you’re not Catholic?

Justification begins, when God says it begins.

When does God say it begins, according to you?

Also, most Protestants that I have spoken to deny that Justification is a process. They claim it is instantaneous. Do you agree with them?

Only God is Just.

True.

Therefore, none can claim to be just,

But Scripture describes many as just. Do you want me to list some examples besides St. Cornelius?

God recieves all the glory.

That is Catholic doctrine. As opposed to the Protestant fallacy which says, “Glory be to God ALONE.”

The difference being, that when we glorify the Virgin Mary, it redounds to God. When we glorify our parents, it redounds to God. Why? Because He created everything. So everytime we glorify anything, the glory redounds to God.

That is how come the Holy Spirit is necessary.

The only entity which is necessary is God. No one and nothing else is necessary.

None is good, no not one.

You have misunderstood that verse from Scripture. Many are good and just. But none is good or just who denies the existence of God:
Psalm 53:1
The fool hath said in his heart, There is no God. Corrupt are they, and have done abominable iniquity: there is none that doeth good.

God is just though and it is God through a true pure hearted believer, that is just and purifies each of Gods own.

Exactly!

John 14:26
But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance , whatsoever I have said unto you.

That’s not about justification. That’s about development of doctrine. That means that the Holy Spirit will lead us to deeper understanding of the teachings of Jesus Christ.

The Holy Spirit cleanses us

.

Through the Sacraments, that is true:
Titus 3:5
Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost;

May God bless.

And you also.

Sincerely,

De Maria