If justification begins at Baptism, how do you explain St. Cornelius?

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So, the question remains. How do you explain St. Cornelius and many others, if “justification” begins at Baptism?

Sincerely,

De Maria
One aspect to note is that in the case of Cornelius --God went about things in a different manner then at he did after the preaching of Peter at Pentecost ''what must we do brothers" --“repent, and be baptized…and you will receive the Holy Spirit”.

Why? In order for Peter to begin to bring Gentiles into the Church. Cornelius and company began to manifest signs of receiving the Holy Spirit prior to baptism.

Is this also a good reminder that the Holy Spirit is active prior to Baptism? Yes!

Now can it happen that a person only repents and has Faith in Jesus and never receives baptism through not fault of their own and dies in the grace of Christ? Yes of course.

It is possible for a person to receive both Faith and Baptism at the same time? Yes of course (happens all the time …every time we baptize an infant. Yes there is the Faith of the Church there…but Faith is also infused into the little one at the moment of Baptism --to be later personally lived and appropriated.)

Is there in the case of older persons a “process” of hearing the Gospel and beginning to respond to the Gospel with Faith (given by God and a human act) and repentance…followed by Baptism and the other Sacraments of initiation? Yes indeed.

Can it be that one who is in the process but not yet arrived at baptism can die “justified” via baptism of desire? Yes.
 
Catechism:

I. JUSTIFICATION

1987 The grace of the Holy Spirit has the power to justify us, that is, to cleanse us from our sins and to communicate to us “the righteousness of God through faith in Jesus Christ” and through Baptism:34
Code:
But if we have died with Christ, we believe that we shall also live with him. For we know that Christ being raised from the dead will never die again; death no longer has dominion over him. The death he died he died to sin, once for all, but the life he lives he lives to God. So you also must consider yourselves as dead to sin and alive to God in Christ Jesus.35
1988 Through the power of the Holy Spirit we take part in Christ’s Passion by dying to sin, and in his Resurrection by being born to a new life; we are members of his Body which is the Church, branches grafted onto the vine which is himself:36
Code:
[God] gave himself to us through his Spirit. By the participation of the Spirit, we become communicants in the divine nature. . . . For this reason, those in whom the Spirit dwells are divinized.37
1989 The first work of the grace of the Holy Spirit is conversion, effecting justification in accordance with Jesus’ proclamation at the beginning of the Gospel: "Repent, for the kingdom of heaven is at hand."38 Moved by grace, man turns toward God and away from sin, thus accepting forgiveness and righteousness from on high. "Justification is not only the remission of sins, but also the sanctification and renewal of the interior man.39

1990 Justification detaches man from sin which contradicts the love of God, and purifies his heart of sin. Justification follows upon God’s merciful initiative of offering forgiveness. It reconciles man with God. It frees from the enslavement to sin, and it heals.

1991 Justification is at the same time the acceptance of God’s righteousness through faith in Jesus Christ. Righteousness (or “justice”) here means the rectitude of divine love. With justification, faith, hope, and charity are poured into our hearts, and obedience to the divine will is granted us.

1992 Justification has been merited for us by the Passion of Christ who offered himself on the cross as a living victim, holy and pleasing to God, and whose blood has become the instrument of atonement for the sins of all men. Justification is conferred in Baptism, the sacrament of faith. It conforms us to the righteousness of God, who makes us inwardly just by the power of his mercy. Its purpose is the glory of God and of Christ, and the gift of eternal life:40
Code:
But now the righteousness of God has been manifested apart from law, although the law and the prophets bear witness to it, the righteousness of God through faith in Jesus Christ for all who believe. For there is no distinction: since all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, they are justified by his grace as a gift, through the redemption which is in Christ Jesus, whom God put forward as an expiation by his blood, to be received by faith. This was to show God's righteousness, because in his divine forbearance he had passed over former sins; it was to prove at the present time that he himself is righteous and that he justifies him who has faith in Jesus.41
1993 Justification establishes cooperation between God’s grace and man’s freedom. On man’s part it is expressed by the assent of faith to the Word of God, which invites him to conversion, and in the cooperation of charity with the prompting of the Holy Spirit who precedes and preserves his assent:
Code:
When God touches man's heart through the illumination of the Holy Spirit, man himself is not inactive while receiving that inspiration, since he could reject it; and yet, without God's grace, he cannot by his own free will move himself toward justice in God's sight.42
1994 Justification is the most excellent work of God’s love made manifest in Christ Jesus and granted by the Holy Spirit. It is the opinion of St. Augustine that “the justification of the wicked is a greater work than the creation of heaven and earth,” because "heaven and earth will pass away but the salvation and justification of the elect . . . will not pass away."43 He holds also that the justification of sinners surpasses the creation of the angels in justice, in that it bears witness to a greater mercy.

1995 The Holy Spirit is the master of the interior life. By giving birth to the "inner man,"44 justification entails the sanctification of his whole being:
Just as you once yielded your members to impurity and to greater and greater iniquity, so now yield your members to righteousness for sanctification. . . . But now that you have been set free from sin and have become slaves of God, the return you get is sanctification and its end, eternal life.45
 
Repentance…Faith…Baptism…

Such is the normal way…though God can work in ways we do not see.
 
Compendium Issued by Pope Benedict XVI
  1. What is justification?
1987-1995
2017-2020

Justification is the most excellent work of God’s love. It is the merciful and freely-given act of God which takes away our sins and makes us just and holy in our whole being. It is brought about by means of the grace of the Holy Spirit which has been merited for us by the passion of Christ and is given to us in Baptism. Justification is the beginning of the free response of man, that is, faith in Christ and of cooperation with the grace of the Holy Spirit.
 
:twocents:Ok, God flipped the script to konk St Peter over the head These Gentiles knew the gifts of the Holy Spirit once they heard what they had to do, believe, awesome.

He will tell you what you must do…

I don’t believe God operates in everyone’s life like that. Their Baptism was an eternal desire. Being an eternal reality transcends time and space…
 
Scripture is very clear on when Cornelius was justified. In Acts 10:43-45 we read the account where Peter is preaching the gospel to Cornelius and those gathered in his house. Beginning with verse forty three it says," To Him all the prophets witness that through His name, whoever believes in Him will receive remission of sins.While Peter was still speaking these words, the Holy Spirit fell upon all those who heard(believed) the word. And those of the circumcision who believed were astonished,as many as came with Peter, because the gift of the Holy Spirit had been poured out on the Gentiles also." Then in verse forty eight it says that they were commanded to be baptized. In Acts 11:13-17 we read Peter’s account to those in Jerusalem. Starting with verse thirteen he says, " And he told us how he had seen an angel in his house,who said to him,’ Send men to Joppa,and call for Simon whose surname is Peter,who will tell you words by which you and all your household will be saved. And as I began to speak, the Holy Spirit fell upon them, as upon us at the beginning.Then I remembered the word of the Lord, how He said, ’ John indeed baptized with water, but you shall be baptized with the Holy Spirit. If therefore God gave them the same gift as He gave us when we believed on the Lord Jesus Christ, who was I that I could withstand God? Cornelius and those gathered with him were ready to believe, they just didn’t know what to believe. But as soon as Peter spoke the words, " whoever believes in Him(Christ), they believed in their hearts, because the Holy Spirit had already began the work of preparing their hearts to believe and receive the truth. When they believed they, according to Peter, were " saved"(justified)! Because they truly were justified, there was no debate about whether they should be baptized, so when Peter commanded baptism, they gladly complied. Hope this helps.
I think we agree. Your key words are these:
because the Holy Spirit had already began the work of preparing their hearts to believe and receive the truth.

Therefore, the process of justification had begun BEFORE they were Sacramentally baptized.

And Baptism conferred upon them the translation from sons of Adam to sons of God, as Christ said, they were “born again of water and spirit.”
John 3:5
King James Version (KJV)
5Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.

Sincerely,

De Maria
 
I cannot comprehend how
an adult would want to be baptised without necessary faith,
unless deceived or coerced.

Since Jesus is the author and perfecter of faith
it seems rather clear that faith should precede
a ceremony in which those who believe die with Christ to sin.
I think we agree. Faith is the foundation of justification, as taught by the Council of Trent:
CHAPTER VIII
HOW THE GRATUITOUS JUSTIFICATION OF THE SINNER BY FAITH IS TO BE UNDERSTOOD

But when the Apostle says that man is justified by faith and freely,[44] these words are to be understood in that sense in which the uninterrupted unanimity of the Catholic Church has held and expressed them, namely, that we are therefore said to be justified by faith, because **faith is the beginning of human salvation, the foundation and root of all justification, without which it is impossible to please God[45] **

Therefore, when one receives the gift of faith, BEFORE Baptism, that is the beginning of justification.

Is that what you meant?

Sincerely,

De Maria
 
I think Jimmy is talking about the initial justification that we receive at baptism, that is the forgiveness of sins and being declared just and becoming sons of God. He is not talking about the process of justification here, but the declaration from whence God makes his declaration come to pass. He does mention the process before baptism but does not call it the process of justification. People use different terminology to describe the same thing.
Perhaps. But if that is true, he is confusing many. Because I’ve bumped into many people who point me to his explanation and say that justification begins at Baptism.
This is reflected in the catechism.
“1996 Our justification comes from the grace of God. Grace is favor, the free and undeserved help that God gives us to respond to his call to become children of God, adoptive sons, partakers of the divine nature and of eternal life.”
CCC1996 describes conversion as the beginning of said justification. No mention of Baptism there.
“1987 The grace of the Holy Spirit has the power to justify us, that is, to cleanse us from our sins and to communicate to us “the righteousness of God through faith in Jesus Christ” and through Baptism.”
Note the word “and”.

Two modes are here described. The process of justification by faith, which is the root and foundation (i.e. beginning of justification) and Baptism which the fullness of justification APART FROM WORKS in the waters of regeneration and renewal.
Agree with that. That is what I just said. However, faith and baptism are not two separate ways, but both are required for our justification.
They are two distinct ways, however. One is by faith (which implies works, as faith is not perfect without works (James 2:22). The other is by the direct work of God alone, in the Sacraments.
This is talking about the process of justification.
Agreed.
We are not officially justified until we have been baptized (or by baptism of desire). I would say that the process of justification is not the same before baptism as it is after baptism. Because after baptism we have sanctifying grace. Once we receive the Holy Spirit we are transformed into the image of Christ. Thus, the process of justification before baptism is necessary to bring us to what many would call our initial justification that is given to us at baptism. That is where our sins are forgiven and we are declared sons of God and welcomed into his family. It from there that God declares us justified and from there that he makes what he declares come to pass. He makes us just actually, not just legally.
The Church teaches that justification can only be effected in us at baptism. (see also Jn 3:5 - according to Christ’s precept- see below)
"Justification denotes that change or transformation in the soul by which man is transferred from the state of original sin, in which as a child of Adam he was born, to that of grace and Divine sonship through Jesus Christ, the second Adam, our Redeemer… In the New Law this justification cannot, according to Christ’s precept, be effected except at the fountain of regeneration, that is, by the baptism of water. "
newadvent.org/cathen/08573a.htm
1215 This sacrament [baptism] is also called “the washing of regeneration and renewal by the Holy Spirit,” for it signifies and actually brings about the birth of water and the Spirit without which no one “can enter the kingdom of God.”
But, as you say, the process of justification begins before baptism, that is the grace for our conversion, faith, and repentance. I would agree with that. Yet, we are not declared justified until at baptism.
“you were washed, you were sanctified, you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and in the Spirit of our God.”
  • 1 Cor 6:11
But, as you say, the process of justification begins before baptism,

Agreed. Thanks for your thoughtful consideration of the question.

Sincerely,

De Maria
 
One aspect to note is that in the case of Cornelius --God went about things in a different manner
Nope. St. Cornelius is our case study. God made sure he was mentioned in Scripture so that we could see a perfect example of justification.
then at he did after the preaching of Peter at Pentecost ''what must we do brothers" --“repent, and be baptized…and you will receive the Holy Spirit”.
St. Cornelius had already repented, which is the beginning of justification. And then he was baptized, which is the effect of being translated from son of Adam to son of God. Then, one continues being justified, both by faith and works, and by faith apart from works (i.e. the Sacraments).
Why? In order for Peter to begin to bring Gentiles into the Church. Cornelius and company began to manifest signs of receiving the Holy Spirit prior to baptism.
Every adult who converts and begins to attend RCIA exhibits gifts of the Holy Spirit:
Galatians 5:21-23
King James Version (KJV)
21Envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like: of the which I tell you before, as I have also told you in time past, that they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God.
**
22But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith,

23Meekness, temperance: against such there is no law.**

They despise their sins and exhibit these fruits, which are gifts of the Holy Spirit.
Is this also a good reminder that the Holy Spirit is active prior to Baptism? Yes!
Amen!
Now can it happen that a person only repents and has Faith in Jesus and never receives baptism through not fault of their own and dies in the grace of Christ? Yes of course.
Agreed.
It is possible for a person to receive both Faith and Baptism at the same time? Yes of course (happens all the time …every time we baptize an infant. Yes there is the Faith of the Church there…but Faith is also infused into the little one at the moment of Baptism --to be later personally lived and appropriated.)
Agreed.
Is there in the case of older persons a “process” of hearing the Gospel and beginning to respond to the Gospel with Faith (given by God and a human act) and repentance…followed by Baptism and the other Sacraments of initiation? Yes indeed.
Can it be that one who is in the process but not yet arrived at baptism can die “justified” via baptism of desire? Yes.
Sounds as though we agree.

But you have still more to say? I see more messages:D
 
:twocents:Ok, God flipped the script to konk St Peter over the head These Gentiles knew the gifts of the Holy Spirit once they heard what they had to do, believe, awesome.

He will tell you what you must do…

I don’t believe God operates in everyone’s life like that. Their Baptism was an eternal desire. Being an eternal reality transcends time and space…
I don’t know what you mean? St. Cornelius is a case study in justification. Every convert is justified in exactly the same way (except for the speaking in tongues bit).

Sincerely,

De Maria
 
Nope. St. Cornelius is our case study. God made sure he was mentioned in Scripture so that we could see a perfect example of justification.
I would not conclude that the reason he is including there is to be a “perfect example” of justification… but rather as the sign for Peter to bring in the Gentiles…that Gentiles are to become Christians …to be Baptized into Christ…enter the Church. Such is the literal sense of the text.
 
I would not conclude that the reason he is including there is to be a “perfect example” of justification… but rather as the sign for Peter to bring in the Gentiles…that Gentiles are to become Christians …to be Baptized into Christ…enter the Church. Such is the literal sense of the text.
There is more than the literal sense to Scripture.
 
From what i’ve heard is that he was justified by baptism of desire. Baptism of desire has the capability to justify in certain circumstances but it is not the ordinary method of justification and one who is justified in this way is still required to be baptized. Someone else might have a better explanation

Tom
YES.
 
Baptism of desire takes effect after one is dead. St. Cornelius was still alive.
So far that is simply your opinion.
Document it from Church sources -
not with an allusion, but with a dogma/doctrine.
 
So far that is simply your opinion.
Document it from Church sources -
not with an allusion, but with a dogma/doctrine.
It is simple logic. However,
  1. This thread is not about Baptism of desire. Someone introduced the subject which is irrelevant to this thread.
  2. However, if you can prove that Baptism of desire occurs BEFORE Sacramental Baptism, you will prove my point that "the process of justification begins BEFORE Sacramental Baptism.
  3. In addition, if you want to prove that Baptism of desire occurs before Baptism, what sense does it make then to be Sacramentally baptized?
So, the ball is in your court. Meantime, I will continue with the subject of this thread.

Sincerely,

De Maria
 
There is more than the literal sense to Scripture.
Yes of course. There are the Spiritual senses founded in the Literal sense.

I would though point to the other examples in Scripture of happenings of “Justification”.

In any case…is the Holy Spirit at work prior to Baptism…in their repentance…in their Faith? Yes of course.
 
I really have not followed all the thread. Can you very briefly summarize in your own words-- the query?
 
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