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Janet_S
Guest
Good point.
Did you watch this?
youtube.com/watch?v=HoUO0HTfs_4
There is another, Eucharistic, version I saw on EWTN, but I can’t find it online.
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If life does not begin at conception why does Planned Parenthood hand out so many condoms?
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Did you watch this?
youtube.com/watch?v=HoUO0HTfs_4
There is another, Eucharistic, version I saw on EWTN, but I can’t find it online.
D
Dale_M
Guest
I think you are right that the two sides talk past each other, and the key issue is when does life become a person. Catholics and many pro-lifers say it is at conception. People who support some kind of right to abortion disagree, but defining when personhood exactly begins is a bit elusive for them.Going back to the original subject, I have to say I can’t imagine any pro abortionist being even momentarily stumped by this one.
They would answer that conception is the beginning of a process that leads to life, and that the idea of a ‘human’ being that conists of two or twenty cells is just plain silly.
Fair enough, although it assumes the personhood at conception point of view so wouldn’t be convincing to those on the other side.Those are the arguements we have to address ourselves to and learn to refute.
My personal inclination is to point out that size isn’t related to humanity: a 1000 pound person [and they are out there] isn’t 10 times as ‘human’ as a hundred pounder. Nor is a 50 pound person only half as human. Therefore, humanity isn’t a function of size, so a single celled human is not impossible.
By using the phrase “someone else’s” you are declaring that personhood already exists. The other side of the discussion may well disagree, but again, I think they have a hard time defining when personhood begins.And secondly, every right has limitations: your right to swing your fist becomes null a tenth of an inch from my nose. Similarly, the right to control her own body doesn’t give a woman the right to destroy some one else’s body.
Very sensible. But as someone pointed out early in the discussion, half of embryos fail to implant and so die. If these embryos are persons, we have been living with an extremely high mortality rate (at least 3x the abortion rate) which no one seems to care about.Lastly, I think we should point out that a humane society is one that gives the benefit of the doubt to its weakest members. If we are truely unsure as to when human life begins, the default position should be to protect the defenceless.
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Dale_M
Guest
How did it go?Jill Stanek will be on the Mancow Show in about a half hour (9AM central) talking about “Born Alive Infants Protection Act”.
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marietta
Guest
mlchance writes:
"Consequently, it actually increases incidents of STDs and pregnancy, events for which Planned Parenthood is more than happy to sell a solution, especially if it involves an abortion for an African-American."
Where in the world does this come from?? And the claim of “substandard condoms” - how would you know the quality of the product? Got a brand name or any way to substantiate your claim?
Janet S writes:
“Limbo? This is not a doctrine of the Church-- Pope Benedict wrote about this about a year ago.”
The concept, the reality, of Limbo was a well-used tool in Catholic instruction when I was a kid, in the late 50s and throughout the 60s, a tool to keep kids in line and to immerse them in fear. Pope Benedict wrote about this *about a year ago? *What was his take on the subject in 1963? It takes a lot of effort to unlearn these hateful things that the Church or its representatives cooked up to manipulate the masses.
“But if 50% of all fertilized eggs fail to implant, yes, they do have souls, so they are somewhere.”
If not Limbo, where are they, then? Did they just go on to Heaven? So wouldn’t an aborted “soul” bypass the troubles of living and effortlessly slide on in to God’s house? Where does Pope Benedict say they are?
“What more do you suggest they do, especially since they have no way of identifying either the mothers or the embryos?”
Why would Pro-Lifers not be able to identify the mothers? If there’s no hands-on activity, I have to assume that parishioners are just pumping money into some charity system. If these women are experiencing unwanted pregnancies and carry to term instead of seeking an abortion, I suggest the Pro-Lifers adopt these children.
*“With Catholic morality, you have to consider the intention.” *
How can intention even enter into it when the dogma is totally cut and dried? You do as the Church tells you and you do not deviate one millimeter or you will suffer unspeakable consequences. This, apparently, gives you great comfort and joy, and that’s fine. But don’t try to pass off Catholic intent as anything but an oxymoron.
Seeker Jen writes:
*“The difference is between impotence and infertility. The former is a complete inability to have normal sexual relations. The latter has an ability to complete normal relations, but has difficulty or impossibility in producing children.” *
How do the various erectile dysfunction drugs enter into the equation here?
Sam Maloney writes:
"My response had nothing to do with either condoms or Planned Parenthood . . . "
The topic of this thread is, “If life does not begin at conception why does Planned Parenthood hand out so many condoms?”
mapleoak:
“The claim that planned parenthood has any other motive than to make money by killing helpless people is nothing more than myopic self deceit. Truth.”
Again, we disagree.
marietta
"Consequently, it actually increases incidents of STDs and pregnancy, events for which Planned Parenthood is more than happy to sell a solution, especially if it involves an abortion for an African-American."
Where in the world does this come from?? And the claim of “substandard condoms” - how would you know the quality of the product? Got a brand name or any way to substantiate your claim?
Janet S writes:
“Limbo? This is not a doctrine of the Church-- Pope Benedict wrote about this about a year ago.”
The concept, the reality, of Limbo was a well-used tool in Catholic instruction when I was a kid, in the late 50s and throughout the 60s, a tool to keep kids in line and to immerse them in fear. Pope Benedict wrote about this *about a year ago? *What was his take on the subject in 1963? It takes a lot of effort to unlearn these hateful things that the Church or its representatives cooked up to manipulate the masses.
“But if 50% of all fertilized eggs fail to implant, yes, they do have souls, so they are somewhere.”
If not Limbo, where are they, then? Did they just go on to Heaven? So wouldn’t an aborted “soul” bypass the troubles of living and effortlessly slide on in to God’s house? Where does Pope Benedict say they are?
“What more do you suggest they do, especially since they have no way of identifying either the mothers or the embryos?”
Why would Pro-Lifers not be able to identify the mothers? If there’s no hands-on activity, I have to assume that parishioners are just pumping money into some charity system. If these women are experiencing unwanted pregnancies and carry to term instead of seeking an abortion, I suggest the Pro-Lifers adopt these children.
*“With Catholic morality, you have to consider the intention.” *
How can intention even enter into it when the dogma is totally cut and dried? You do as the Church tells you and you do not deviate one millimeter or you will suffer unspeakable consequences. This, apparently, gives you great comfort and joy, and that’s fine. But don’t try to pass off Catholic intent as anything but an oxymoron.
Seeker Jen writes:
*“The difference is between impotence and infertility. The former is a complete inability to have normal sexual relations. The latter has an ability to complete normal relations, but has difficulty or impossibility in producing children.” *
How do the various erectile dysfunction drugs enter into the equation here?
Sam Maloney writes:
"My response had nothing to do with either condoms or Planned Parenthood . . . "
The topic of this thread is, “If life does not begin at conception why does Planned Parenthood hand out so many condoms?”
mapleoak:
“The claim that planned parenthood has any other motive than to make money by killing helpless people is nothing more than myopic self deceit. Truth.”
Again, we disagree.
marietta
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Janet_S
Guest
I went to Catholic school in the 60’s and 70’s, and I didn’t have the same experience as you–Limbo used as a tool to keep kids in line and to immerse them in fear. Nothing more to say than that.Janet S writes:
“Limbo? This is not a doctrine of the Church-- Pope Benedict wrote about this about a year ago.”
The concept, the reality, of Limbo was a well-used tool in Catholic instruction when I was a kid, in the late 50s and throughout the 60s, a tool to keep kids in line and to immerse them in fear. Pope Benedict wrote about this *about a year ago? *What was his take on the subject in 1963? It takes a lot of effort to unlearn these hateful things that the Church or its representatives cooked up to manipulate the masses.
If not Limbo, where are they, then? Did they just go on to Heaven? So wouldn’t an aborted “soul” bypass the troubles of living and effortlessly slide on in to God’s house? Where does Pope Benedict say they are?
Here is the document I am referring to in case you want to delve into the issue:. . . they provide strong grounds for hope that God will save infants when we have not been able to do for them what we would have wished to do, namely, to baptize them into the faith and life of the Church.
INTERNATIONAL THEOLOGICAL COMMISSION,
THE HOPE OF SALVATION FOR INFANTS
WHO DIE WITHOUT BEING BAPTISED*
vatican.va/roman_curia/congregations/cfaith/cti_documents/rc_con_cfaith_doc_20070419_un-baptised-infants_en.html
I have no doubt pro-lifers would and do adopt these children if the natural mothers don’t want to keep them. They already do a lot to help women with unwanted pregnancies. But that’s not my point. What I’m asking is how do you identify each fertilized, pre-implanted ovum and each woman who is so newly pregnant that she doesn’t even know it yet? That was beeliner’s point, that pro-lifers weren’t doing enough. But I’m asking what should pro-lifers be doing for these people that they’re not already doing?“What more do you suggest they do, especially since they have no way of identifying either the mothers or the embryos?”
Why would Pro-Lifers not be able to identify the mothers? If there’s no hands-on activity, I have to assume that parishioners are just pumping money into some charity system. If these women are experiencing unwanted pregnancies and carry to term instead of seeking an abortion, I suggest the Pro-Lifers adopt these children.
And let’s imagine pro-lifers did start a campaign to ensure that each fertilized ovum came to term, what then? Would that be enough to convince all pro-choicers to change their mind about when life begins? Or would they just find something else to criticize the pro-lifers about?
There is a difference between intentionally killing an innocent human life and unintentionally killing an innocent human life. Performing an abortion or administering an abortifacient is the intentional killing of an innocent human life and is intrinsically evil. On the other hand, if you were involved in an automobile accident that resulted in the killing of an unborn child, that would be unintentionally killing an innocent human life. This is an accident that resulted in the death of an innocent human life, but it is not intrinsically evil. From a moral standpoint, you have the same results, but different intention. That’s why I said you must consider the intention to determine the moral gravity of a given action. It is never permissible to intentionally kill an innocent human life.*“With Catholic morality, you have to consider the intention.” *
How can intention even enter into it when the dogma is totally cut and dried? You do as the Church tells you and you do not deviate one millimeter or you will suffer unspeakable consequences. This, apparently, gives you great comfort and joy, and that’s fine. But don’t try to pass off Catholic intent as anything but an oxymoron.
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marietta
Guest
Janet S:
So what of intentionally conceiving and unintentionally conceiving? Would God’s punishment for abortion be the same for the one as for the other?
You have nothing more to say on the subject of Limbo and the way it was taught? Nothing on the existence of an actual realm called Purgatory? Nothing on indulgences? Nothing on priestly pedophilia? These are troubling issues to me, and I find your dismissal of the question of Limbo typical of the average Catholic’s failure to admit to any character defects found within the Church in our lifetime. I am disappointed, not surprised.
“And let’s imagine pro-lifers did start a campaign to ensure that each fertilized ovum came to term, what then? Would that be enough to convince all pro-choicers to change their mind about when life begins? Or would they just find something else to criticize the pro-lifers about?”
My gripe with Pro-Life folks is that they are not satisfied concentrating on their own lives and families, that they are compelled to make the pregnancies of strangers theirs to manage, too. I’m grateful that when I entered PreTerm in D.C. before Roe v. Wade passed, there was no one on the sidewalk outside to harass me or wave placards in my face. I was a very young woman then, very fit, and very pugnacious. Somebody would’ve been hurt, and it wouldn’t have been me. I didn’t need assault on my record.
marietta
So what of intentionally conceiving and unintentionally conceiving? Would God’s punishment for abortion be the same for the one as for the other?
You have nothing more to say on the subject of Limbo and the way it was taught? Nothing on the existence of an actual realm called Purgatory? Nothing on indulgences? Nothing on priestly pedophilia? These are troubling issues to me, and I find your dismissal of the question of Limbo typical of the average Catholic’s failure to admit to any character defects found within the Church in our lifetime. I am disappointed, not surprised.
“And let’s imagine pro-lifers did start a campaign to ensure that each fertilized ovum came to term, what then? Would that be enough to convince all pro-choicers to change their mind about when life begins? Or would they just find something else to criticize the pro-lifers about?”
My gripe with Pro-Life folks is that they are not satisfied concentrating on their own lives and families, that they are compelled to make the pregnancies of strangers theirs to manage, too. I’m grateful that when I entered PreTerm in D.C. before Roe v. Wade passed, there was no one on the sidewalk outside to harass me or wave placards in my face. I was a very young woman then, very fit, and very pugnacious. Somebody would’ve been hurt, and it wouldn’t have been me. I didn’t need assault on my record.
marietta
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mlchance
Guest
Planned Parenthood distributing substandard condoms is old news, easily verifiable with a simple search. For example.Where in the world does this come from?? And the claim of “substandard condoms” - how would you know the quality of the product? Got a brand name or any way to substantiate your claim?
Planned Parenthood being founded in part to decrease the number of African-Americans is also common knowledge. It was one of Margaret Sanger’s stated goals. Today, about 1/3 of all African-American babies are killed in the womb.
– Mark L. Chance.
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Br.Rich_SFO
Guest
Most likely because they know that they will create a false sense of security and most likely result in a pregnancy and an abortion at some point.EstesBob quoted this on another thread. I thought it needed to be posted on a thread of its own!
Heard a great line today…
If life does not begin at conception why does Planned Parenthood hand out so many condoms?
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estesbob
Guest
I heard a talk one time by a lady who used to run five abortion clinics in Dallas. She said she was often invited to high schools to talk about safe sex and she looked upon as effective marketing. I can’t remember the statistics she gave but she had calculated that for each talk she would get X. number of abortionsMost likely because they know that they will create a false sense of security and most likely result in a pregnancy and an abortion at some point.
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marietta
Guest
mlchance:
" . . . all condoms [passed out by Planned Parenthood] including the ones tested by Consumer Reports are FDA approved."
Why not take it up the blame chain?
The link you gave regarding African Americans and their disproportionate number of abortions took me to BlackGenocide.org, which took me to pregnancycenters.org, which gave me very responsible information regarding abortion: the procedure itself at various stages of gestation, the possible risks, information regarding fetal development, and these two gems:
*"Your needs are important to us. Our trained consultants are available 24/7 to listen to your concerns and to answer your questions about pregnancy, abortion and related issues. Our consultants will connect you to nearby pregnancy centers that offer the following services:
Free pregnancy tests and pregnancy information
*Abortion and Morning After Pill information, including procedures and risks **
Medical services, including STD tests, early ultrasounds and pregnancy confirmation
Confidential pregnancy options"
and:
"You have the legal right to choose the outcome of your pregnancy."
Is this actually where you wanted to take us, on a journey to ImpartialVille? That’s rather unlike you.
estesbob:
I heard a speaker one time recounting how for years his uncle was the Chief of Police in Yuma, and because this young man was so connected to law enforcement he was able to avoid lock-up on 37 separate incidents of driving while intoxicated. The way he told the story was hilarious, and full of poignant impact. But who’s to say he didn’t color the events a little to make his point?
I don’t believe everything I hear or read.
marietta
" . . . all condoms [passed out by Planned Parenthood] including the ones tested by Consumer Reports are FDA approved."
Why not take it up the blame chain?
The link you gave regarding African Americans and their disproportionate number of abortions took me to BlackGenocide.org, which took me to pregnancycenters.org, which gave me very responsible information regarding abortion: the procedure itself at various stages of gestation, the possible risks, information regarding fetal development, and these two gems:
*"Your needs are important to us. Our trained consultants are available 24/7 to listen to your concerns and to answer your questions about pregnancy, abortion and related issues. Our consultants will connect you to nearby pregnancy centers that offer the following services:
Free pregnancy tests and pregnancy information
*Abortion and Morning After Pill information, including procedures and risks **
Medical services, including STD tests, early ultrasounds and pregnancy confirmation
Confidential pregnancy options"
and:
"You have the legal right to choose the outcome of your pregnancy."
Is this actually where you wanted to take us, on a journey to ImpartialVille? That’s rather unlike you.
estesbob:
I heard a speaker one time recounting how for years his uncle was the Chief of Police in Yuma, and because this young man was so connected to law enforcement he was able to avoid lock-up on 37 separate incidents of driving while intoxicated. The way he told the story was hilarious, and full of poignant impact. But who’s to say he didn’t color the events a little to make his point?
I don’t believe everything I hear or read.
marietta
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Janet_S
Guest
What is God’s punishment? I can’t comment on that. Of course, He is merciful towards those who repent, so one sin doesn’t necessarily damn someone to hell. We believe in the forgiveness of sins which you probably remember from the Creed. But as far as Church teaching goes, it is never acceptable to kill an innocent human life no matter what the circumstances of his or her conception.So what of intentionally conceiving and unintentionally conceiving? Would God’s punishment for abortion be the same for the one as for the other?
You have nothing more to say on the subject of Limbo and the way it was taught? Nothing on the existence of an actual realm called Purgatory? Nothing on indulgences? Nothing on priestly pedophilia? These are troubling issues to me, and I find your dismissal of the question of Limbo typical of the average Catholic’s failure to admit to any character defects found within the Church in our lifetime. I am disappointed, not surprised.
I don’t remember being threatened with Limbo when I was in Catholic school. If that was your experience, I believe you. I have nothing more to say than that. You asked what the Pope said recently, and I gave you the link to the article. We weren’t discussing Purgatory, indulgences, or pedophilia, so I’m not sure what I was supposed to say about them.
marietta;4134184:
Pro-lifers are there because they realize abortion is a desperate act, and they care about the pregnant woman and the child she is carrying. If you saw someone attempting to jump off a bridge, would you try to stop them or mind your own business and look the other way?My gripe with Pro-Life folks is that they are not satisfied concentrating on their own lives and families, that they are compelled to make the pregnancies of strangers theirs to manage, too. I’m grateful that when I entered PreTerm in D.C. before Roe v. Wade passed, there was no one on the sidewalk outside to harass me or wave placards in my face. I was a very young woman then, very fit, and very pugnacious. Somebody would’ve been hurt, and it wouldn’t have been me. I didn’t need assault on my record.
marietta
But, I’ve heard this argument before, so I’m not surprised, And the same thing was said about slavery when it was legal “Those who oppose slavery are free to refrain from it. They have no right to impose their personal religious morality on society through legislation or a constitutional amendment.”
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Chris_LaRock
Guest
Simple.Interesting quote. Along the lines of the current topic “If life does not begin at conception…” I had posted a thread titled “Pro-Choice folks, do you believe that women are ignorant” last week which of course as I had expected, received almost no feedback. forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?t=264193
I believe that in both cases the truth is either to hard to admit or the pro-abortion forces are ashamed to reveal that they disrepect women to the degree that they view them as cattle to farmed as their gold mine. Pregnant women equals money from abortion. Get lots of women pregnant and herd them into their clinics.
If you can dehumanize your intended victim, then you can justify killing them. This idea is what brought us the holocaust.
I wonder…do abortionists get angry when they see a woman who gives birth to her child?
“#%@!!!, another one got away!”
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mapleoak
Guest
Basically any that are born are held in disdain by abortionists since they represent lost profits. Just think, a “doctor” at planned parenthood would have killed you or me without even a flinch if they had the opportunity.I wonder…do abortionists get angry when they see a woman who gives birth to her child?
“#%@!!!, another one got away!”
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mapleoak
Guest
What is responsible information regarding murder? Point the gun away from you when you shoot lest you get shot?…which gave me very responsible information regarding abortion:
Hiding of course the possible (very likely) risk of a living human being getting put to death.the procedure itself at various stages of gestation, the possible risks,
Note that their consultants are not trained to listen to your concerns, but to use whatever influence, persuasion, and coersion in their power to convince you to murder your child.information regarding fetal development, and these two gems:
*"Your needs are important to us. Our trained consultants are available 24/7 to listen to your concerns and to answer your questions about pregnancy, abortion and related issues. Our consultants will connect you to nearby pregnancy centers that offer the following services: *
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marietta
Guest
And you can confirm this? By what means?Note that their consultants are not trained to listen to your concerns, but to use whatever influence, persuasion, and coersion in their power to convince you to murder your child.
marietta
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beeliner
Guest
- Life does begin at conception. That is an objective fact, not a religious belief.
- From where did you get this information, that 50% of all fertilized eggs fail to implant? It may be true, but how in the world did you find this out?
- Limbo? This is not a doctrine of the Church-- Pope Benedict wrote about this about a year ago. But if 50% of all fertilized eggs fail to implant, yes, they do have souls, so they are somewhere. And your point is? That heaven, hell, and purgatory hold only a finite number of souls?
- I understand the point of your post is to show how hypocritical pro life people are because they aren’t doing enough to ensure that every fertilized egg implants in the uterus and comes to full term. Pro-life people do assist pregnant women in getting prenatal care. What more do you suggest they do, especially since they have no way of identifying either the mothers or the embryos?
- Of course, not all embryos will implant. That is nature. But I’m not sure how one uses the statement of “many embryos die before they are implanted” to justify the statement of “since many embryos die, naturally, before implantation, then it’s morally permissible to prevent an embryo from implantation.”
- Isn’t that the same as saying “since people die every day, naturally, it is morally permissible to assist a dying person along by euthanasia.”
- Uh, no dear, that is nothing more than a figure of speech. To say that life begins at conception implies that what existed before conception - an egg and a sperm - was not living. That is, of course, ridiculous. I don’t of anyone who believes that.
It seems to me, though, that some people try to IMPLY with that statement that PERSONHOOD begins at conception, that a fertilized egg, even before implantation, is a person. That is equally ridiculous. It has none of the attributes of personhood whatever.
- You’ve lost me here. You think that such statistics are kept secret?
- You miss the point. Why would God instill immortal souls in billions of fertilized eggs which would never even implant? One does not second-guess God of course; still, it just doesn’t seem logical.
Regarding Limbo, I still maintain, Church teaching aside, that it’s a lot of fun at a party. How low can you go?
- Actually, another poster made that point, tongue in cheek. The point was to note the inconsistancy of Church teaching in this area. Another inconsistancy: Anybody ever heard of the Church celebrating a requiem Mass or conducting funeral and burial services for a miscarriage? I certainly haven’t. Why would that ‘child’ not be entitled to the same consideration as one who dies during or after birth?
- I never made such a statement.
- I don’t know if it’s ‘the same’, but many people believe that. I don’t - I’d rather atone for my sins by suffering here, in the world that I know, than in the next.
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mapleoak
Guest
It is a scientific fact that neither an egg nor a sperm is a human being. It is also a scientific fact that a fertilized egg is a human being from the moment of conception.
- Uh, no dear, that is nothing more than a figure of speech. To say that life begins at conception implies that what existed before conception - an egg and a sperm - was not living. That is, of course, ridiculous. I don’t of anyone who believes that.
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Chris_LaRock
Guest
I think the debate over life beginning at conception is a red herring. Abortions aren’t done at the moment of conception, but several weeks afterwards when a heartbeat can be detected.It is a scientific fact that neither an egg nor a sperm is a human being. It is also a scientific fact that a fertilized egg is a human being from the moment of conception.
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fix
Guest
During the course of the discussion, Doerflinger’s Harvard faculty interlocutor drew a timeline of human biological development on the blackboard: conception, implantation, brain waves, viability, birth and so forth. His challenge to Doerflinger was to defend, in a nonarbitrary way and without reference to religious principles, the notion that society should recognize moral value and legal rights at any particular point along that line. If here, why here? If there, why there? After the class, as the conversation continued with a few students and the professor, Doerflinger took a piece of chalk and extended the timeline to the end of the blackboard, where he wrote “Tenure.” The students laughed, and got the message. The only point along that continuum that wouldn’t be arbitrary was the starting point—conception…
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mapleoak
Guest
Most everything in the pro-abortionist arsenal is red herring to shift and divert the argument away from abortion is the brutal slaughter of innocent human beings.I think the debate over life beginning at conception is a red herring. Abortions aren’t done at the moment of conception, but several weeks afterwards when a heartbeat can be detected.
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