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estesbob
Guest
A child you believe enslaved you and that you had every right to chop into little pieces before she was born. Why don’t you tell her that so she can be as enlightened as you.
If life does not begin at conception why does Planned Parenthood hand out so many condoms?
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estesbob
Guest
What a silly thing to say. Obviously her daughter wasn’t practicing abstinence.
It’s funny how when it was revealed John Edwards had a illegitimate child no one started criticizing him for preaching safe sex and contraception. After all here is a man who knew everything there was to know about birth control and and thought that it should be taught in our schools from sixth grade up. Guess he could use some abstinence education, couldn’t he
So you think she should get an abortion ? Bet that would increase Governor Palin’s Palen’s popularity with the Democratic Party.
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sodak
Guest
Agreed. Including your posts.
Be very glad indeed that you’ve never run into me, or many of the people that I know in these organizations. Don’t mistake kindness for weakness.
I agree that the majority of your posts are knee-jerk with very little thought.
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a_cermak
Guest
I’ve acted as escort twice for women getting abortions. In one case the protesters were rude and tried to physically intervene. Knowing the law, we simply kept walking and made sure we didn’t touch any of them. By law, here in IL, they can’t actually impede access to a clinic. Some were rude, and called her names and I remember wondering, do they really think this will change her mind.
The second time the ladies were nicer and better organized and behaved. There was no name calling or unkindness. I certainly thought that would have been a more effective tactic if the lady I was with wasn’t sure of her choice.
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a_cermak
Guest
You apparently have no ability or interest in reading what I wrote. I stated that because my child was wanted and therefore, my pregnancy was voluntary, I was never enslaved.
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Chris_LaRock
Guest
Why should a child have to die for the sake of somebody elses “reproductive Rights”? How is this principal consistant with human rights or civilized people?
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Chris_LaRock
Guest
I’m sorry, but that makes you an acsessory to murder. Murder is strictly prohibited by the Torrah.
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estesbob
Guest
I read what you said. How do you think your daughter would feel if you sat her down and told her you believe you had the right to chop her into little peices before she was born? How does you daughter have a right to life and other unborn children do not? Does the right to life flow from a Mother or from God?
I think it is horryfiying when one takes the attitude that “I wont kill my child but I support the right of women who feel enslaved to kill theirs” It is beyond me how anyone who feels such a strong love for he child is so dismissive of the right to life of other children, Reminds me of the Mistress of the Plantation doteing on her children while the slave children starved.
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estesbob
Guest
When I wokred in a slaughter house we had a goat that would lead the lambs into the slaughter pen. It was called a Judas goat.
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marietta
Guest
Chris LaRock:
“Halacha (Jewish law) does define when a fetus becomes a nefesh (person). ‘…a baby…becomes a full-fledged human being when the head emerges from the womb. Before then, the fetus is considered a "partial life.’”’ In the case of a ‘feet-first’ delivery, it happens when most of the fetal body is outside the mother’s body.
"Jewish beliefs and practice not neatly match either the ‘pro-life’ nor the ‘pro-choice’ points of view. The general principles of modern-day Judaism are that:
The fetus has great value because it is potentially a human life. It gains ‘full human status at birth only.’
Abortions are not permitted on the grounds of genetic imperfections of the fetus.
Abortions are permitted to save the mother’s life or health.
With the exception of some Orthodox authorities, Judaism supports abortion access for women.
‘…each case must be decided individually by a rabbi well-versed in Jewish law."’"
“Historical Christianity has considered ‘ensoulment,’ the point at which the soul enters the body) as the time when abortions should normally be prohibited. Belief about the timing of this event has varied from the instant of fertilization of the ovum, to 90 days after conception, or later. There has been no consensus among historical Jewish sources about when ensoulment happens. It is regarded as ‘one of the “secrets of God”’ that will be revealed only when the Messiah comes.”
"Abortion-related passages in the Hebrew Scriptures & Talmud:
The Babylonian Talmud Yevamot 69b states that: ‘the embryo is considered to be mere water until the fortieth day.’ Afterwards, it is considered subhuman until it is born.
“Rashi, the great 12th century commentator on the Bible and Talmud, states clearly of the fetus ‘lav nefesh hu–it is not a person.’ The Talmud contains the expression ‘ubar yerech imo–the fetus is as the thigh of its mother,’ i.e., the fetus is deemed to be part and parcel of the pregnant woman’s body.” This is grounded in Exodus 21:22. That biblical passage outlines the Mosaic law in a case where a man is responsible for causing a woman’s miscarriage, which kills the fetus If the woman survives, then the perpetrator has to pay a fine to the woman’s husband. If the woman dies, then the perpetrator is also killed. This indicates that the fetus has value, but does not have the status of a person.
"The Torah contains no direct references to pregnancy termination, only to miscarriage following violent altercation."
"The Torah says little about the status or treatment of the embryo or fetus. Indeed, only one crucial Biblical law establishes a rule about the killing of an embryo or fetus. Specifically, Exodus 21:22-23 states:
“When men fight, and one of them pushes a pregnant woman and a miscarriage results, but no other damage (ason) ensues, the one responsible shall be fined according as the woman’s husband may exact from him, the payment to be based on reckoning. But if other damage (ason) ensues, the penalty shall be life for life, eye for eye, tooth for tooth, hand for hand, foot for foot, burn for burn, wound for wound, bruise for bruise.”
“In Judaism, views on abortion draw primarily upon the legal and ethical teachings of the Hebrew Bible, the Talmud, the case-by-case decisions of responsa, and other rabbinic literature. In the modern period, moreover, Jewish thinking on abortion has responded both to liberal understandings of personal autonomy as well as Christian opposition to abortion. Generally speaking, orthodox Jews oppose abortion, with few health-related exceptions, and reform and conservative Jews tend to allow greater latitude for abortion.”
—Wikipedia: Religion and Abortion
—Wikipedia: Judaism and Abortion
marietta
“Halacha (Jewish law) does define when a fetus becomes a nefesh (person). ‘…a baby…becomes a full-fledged human being when the head emerges from the womb. Before then, the fetus is considered a "partial life.’”’ In the case of a ‘feet-first’ delivery, it happens when most of the fetal body is outside the mother’s body.
"Jewish beliefs and practice not neatly match either the ‘pro-life’ nor the ‘pro-choice’ points of view. The general principles of modern-day Judaism are that:
The fetus has great value because it is potentially a human life. It gains ‘full human status at birth only.’
Abortions are not permitted on the grounds of genetic imperfections of the fetus.
Abortions are permitted to save the mother’s life or health.
With the exception of some Orthodox authorities, Judaism supports abortion access for women.
‘…each case must be decided individually by a rabbi well-versed in Jewish law."’"
“Historical Christianity has considered ‘ensoulment,’ the point at which the soul enters the body) as the time when abortions should normally be prohibited. Belief about the timing of this event has varied from the instant of fertilization of the ovum, to 90 days after conception, or later. There has been no consensus among historical Jewish sources about when ensoulment happens. It is regarded as ‘one of the “secrets of God”’ that will be revealed only when the Messiah comes.”
"Abortion-related passages in the Hebrew Scriptures & Talmud:
The Babylonian Talmud Yevamot 69b states that: ‘the embryo is considered to be mere water until the fortieth day.’ Afterwards, it is considered subhuman until it is born.
“Rashi, the great 12th century commentator on the Bible and Talmud, states clearly of the fetus ‘lav nefesh hu–it is not a person.’ The Talmud contains the expression ‘ubar yerech imo–the fetus is as the thigh of its mother,’ i.e., the fetus is deemed to be part and parcel of the pregnant woman’s body.” This is grounded in Exodus 21:22. That biblical passage outlines the Mosaic law in a case where a man is responsible for causing a woman’s miscarriage, which kills the fetus If the woman survives, then the perpetrator has to pay a fine to the woman’s husband. If the woman dies, then the perpetrator is also killed. This indicates that the fetus has value, but does not have the status of a person.
"The Torah contains no direct references to pregnancy termination, only to miscarriage following violent altercation."
"The Torah says little about the status or treatment of the embryo or fetus. Indeed, only one crucial Biblical law establishes a rule about the killing of an embryo or fetus. Specifically, Exodus 21:22-23 states:
“When men fight, and one of them pushes a pregnant woman and a miscarriage results, but no other damage (ason) ensues, the one responsible shall be fined according as the woman’s husband may exact from him, the payment to be based on reckoning. But if other damage (ason) ensues, the penalty shall be life for life, eye for eye, tooth for tooth, hand for hand, foot for foot, burn for burn, wound for wound, bruise for bruise.”
“In Judaism, views on abortion draw primarily upon the legal and ethical teachings of the Hebrew Bible, the Talmud, the case-by-case decisions of responsa, and other rabbinic literature. In the modern period, moreover, Jewish thinking on abortion has responded both to liberal understandings of personal autonomy as well as Christian opposition to abortion. Generally speaking, orthodox Jews oppose abortion, with few health-related exceptions, and reform and conservative Jews tend to allow greater latitude for abortion.”
—Wikipedia: Religion and Abortion
—Wikipedia: Judaism and Abortion
marietta
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marietta
Guest
estesbob:
Why is it that with you pro-life individuals, the two arguments you always fall back on are slavery and bank robbery?
marietta
Why is it that with you pro-life individuals, the two arguments you always fall back on are slavery and bank robbery?
marietta
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estesbob
Guest
Slavery was the greatest moral issue that faced this country in the first 100 or so years of our existence . Abortion is the greatest moral issue that faces our country today. The arguments that were used to justify slavery are the exact same arguments that are used today to jusify abortion. Both were held to be constitutional, both relied on demeaning human life. It took the lives of 600,000 Americans to end slavery-with abortion we are at 50 million and counting.
Just like slavery Abortion is the an abject evil that soils everyone it touches. A generation from now when this evil has been bought to an end people will look back and wonder how a supposedly civilized people could have been so evil. 100 years from now we will still be hanging our heads in shame and trying to erase this terrible blot on our history.
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mapleoak
Guest
Contraception is evil.
Murder is never necessary.
A woman’s body is not enslaved by pregnancy. Try again.
If one were to try to even begin to be closer to being accurate you would have it backwards. However neither is the child a slave to the mother.
That is why we need laws to protect the unborn from those who wish to kill them.
That is why we need laws to protect the unborn from those who wish to kill them, including protection from heathens. There are already laws to protect children and adults from people such as you (since you reject natural law) who see murder as wrong only because the law says so. We also need such laws to protect the unborn as well.
Why? Would abortion be wrong for some reason? I thought you reject natural law?
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marietta
Guest
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marietta
Guest
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mapleoak
Guest
Doesn’t matter. You should tell your child that at your very whim, you could have had her brutally dismembered and would have believed yourself to be fully justified in doing so. Further tell her she didn’t deserve to live, only that you in your goodness decided it would be nice to let her live. Even further, you can tell that at some arbitrary point you decided she was worthy to be considered a person and could no longer be killed excepting if you were to change your mind and revoke personhood from her.
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mapleoak
Guest
Because some people to something painted for them in black and white to be able to see clearly. Kind of like the color blind wearing red glasses.
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mapleoak
Guest
I got to tour a slaughter house on one of my many, many trips from the farm to the stockyard. Even got to operate the air slug!
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mlchance
Guest
In that case, no one has a right to life unless suffered to have one by someone else. So, while you cherish your child, it need not have been so, and you’d have been perfectly justified in killing her instead of birthing her. IOW, you’ve made the right to life absolutely contingent of the will of a supreme other, who can choose to acknowledge this right or not as seen fit.
One would think that a Jewish person would be among the first to see the awfulness of such a viewpoint.
– Mark L. Chance.
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mapleoak
Guest
Repost of post #145:
Note also the Church always maintained that abortion at any stage is a gravely disordered action. Further note that the Church has never stated that a human being does not have a soul from the moment of conception.
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