If Luther were alive today, would he be Catholic?

[LutheranScholar]

Yes, I really enjoy (civil) discussion with people from different faiths - it can be very illuminating, but sadly I think too often CAF deteriorates into eye for an eye - even when nothing has happened to the first eye, if you catch my drift…but again there are plenty of good interesting posts as well among the briars and thorns. (on a good thread anyway)

As for Luther and the Jews, yes, the first time I read any of that I think my hair actually stood on end. Wow. Wow. Wow. I do tend to go too easy on ole Luther. I know it. I guess I am just trying to restore a happy medium, what with the nonstop bashing going all around on these threads. So much of Luther’s work is very inspiring and I read him (selectively - about a third of his work) right when I was realizing I was a Christian from atheism, coming back to the Church, so it really made an impact in a positive way. I got over the Jewish stuff - the Lutherans have completely disowned it on record and also much of the 16th century Christian culture in Europe talked like that about Jews. (Shakespeare’s Shylock for example) Anti-Semitism unfortunately has a prominent, extensive history in Europe. Almost a sort of cultural norm. I think Luther is just very intense and articulate in his writing so it really knocks you out when he starts in on the Jewish people - plus we look through the WWII / Nazis lens at it today. Last point, Catholics have smeared Luther in a lot of unfair ways too, no doubt. Horrible stuff. Mentally ill, etc. We both have our share of uncharitable attacks in this dispute - that was kind of my main point. I think it is more productive if we see each other primarily as fellow Christians in a pretty anti Christian world these days, same creed, same doctrine, shared history, Augustinian heritage. Best use of our time. My sense from your post is you agree with that.

You’re quite correct, I do agree with that assertion. :tiphat: Here’s to more posts of dialogue and mutual edification!

 

[Don_Ruggero]

Yes, I really enjoy (civil) discussion with people from different faiths - it can be very illuminating, but sadly I think too often CAF deteriorates into eye for an eye - even when nothing has happened to the first eye, if you catch my drift…but again there are plenty of good interesting posts as well among the briars and thorns. (on a good thread anyway)

As for Luther and the Jews, yes, the first time I read any of that I think my hair actually stood on end. Wow. Wow. Wow. I do tend to go too easy on ole Luther. I know it. I guess I am just trying to restore a happy medium, what with the nonstop bashing going all around on these threads. So much of Luther’s work is very inspiring and I read him (selectively - about a third of his work) right when I was realizing I was a Christian from atheism, coming back to the Church, so it really made an impact in a positive way. I got over the Jewish stuff - the Lutherans have completely disowned it on record and also much of the 16th century Christian culture in Europe talked like that about Jews. (Shakespeare’s Shylock for example) Anti-Semitism unfortunately has a prominent, extensive history in Europe. Almost a sort of cultural norm. I think Luther is just very intense and articulate in his writing so it really knocks you out when he starts in on the Jewish people - plus we look through the WWII / Nazis lens at it today. Last point, Catholics have smeared Luther in a lot of unfair ways too, no doubt. Horrible stuff. Mentally ill, etc. We both have our share of uncharitable attacks in this dispute - that was kind of my main point. I think it is more productive if we see each other primarily as fellow Christians in a pretty anti Christian world these days, same creed, same doctrine, shared history, Augustinian heritage. Best use of our time. My sense from your post is you agree with that.

There was much to say in my lectures about Catholic antisemitism right up to that truly revolutionary moment of Nostra Aetate and its aftermath.

One of my favorite passage of From Conflict to Communion is from Paragraph 233, which speaks well to the problem on both sides.
*In the sixteenth century, Catholics and Lutherans frequently not only misunderstood but also exaggerated and caricatured their opponents in order to make them look ridiculous. They repeatedly violated the eighth commandment, which prohibits bearing false witness against one’s neighbor. Even if the opponents were sometimes intellectually fair to one another, their willingness to hear the other and to take his concerns seriously was insufficient. The controversialists wanted to refute and overcome their opponents, often deliberately exacerbating conflicts rather than seeking solutions by looking for what they held in common. Prejudices and misunderstandings played a great role in the characterization of the other side. Oppositions were constructed and handed down to the next generation. Here both sides have every reason to regret and lament the way in which they conducted their debates. Both Lutherans and Catholics bear the guilt that needs to be openly confessed in the remembrance of the events of 500 years ago. *
As for your latter point, it is well addressed by Paragraph 238
Catholics and Lutherans realize that they and the communities in which they live out their faith belong to the one body of Christ. The awareness is dawning on Lutherans and Catholics that the struggle of the sixteenth century is over. The reasons for mutually condemning each other’s faith have fallen by the wayside.

 

[Peter_J]

We are better off loving the Lord our God with all our minds, hearts and strength and loving our neighbors as ourselves than spewing bile at people who ( at heart) are fellow believers.

Ah yes, the great sport of bile-spewing.

I’m forever wondering if humanity would be better off without this whole internet thing. (Side note: you may or may not have heard the answer I always give about why I participate on a Catholic forum and not a Lutheran one, namely that I *would *participate on a Lutheran forum instead if I found one that was better.)

 

[FollowChrist34]

There was much to say in my lectures about Catholic antisemitism right up to that truly revolutionary moment of Nostra Aetate and its aftermath.

One of my favorite passage of From Conflict to Communion is from Paragraph 233, which speaks well to the problem on both sides.
*In the sixteenth century, Catholics and Lutherans frequently not only misunderstood but also exaggerated and caricatured their opponents in order to make them look ridiculous. They repeatedly violated the eighth commandment, which prohibits bearing false witness against one’s neighbor. Even if the opponents were sometimes intellectually fair to one another, their willingness to hear the other and to take his concerns seriously was insufficient. The controversialists wanted to refute and overcome their opponents, often deliberately exacerbating conflicts rather than seeking solutions by looking for what they held in common. Prejudices and misunderstandings played a great role in the characterization of the other side. Oppositions were constructed and handed down to the next generation. Here both sides have every reason to regret and lament the way in which they conducted their debates. Both Lutherans and Catholics bear the guilt that needs to be openly confessed in the remembrance of the events of 500 years ago. *
As for your latter point, it is well addressed by Paragraph 238
Catholics and Lutherans realize that they and the communities in which they live out their faith belong to the one body of Christ. The awareness is dawning on Lutherans and Catholics that the struggle of the sixteenth century is over. The reasons for mutually condemning each other’s faith have fallen by the wayside.

Agreed on Catholic anti-Semitism - now that I think about it my phrase “16th century Christian culture” would include Catholicism to a fairly large degree, alongside the Protestants.

Proposed edit to Paragraph 238

Catholics and Lutherans realize that they and the communities in which they live out their faith belong to the one body of Christ. The awareness is dawning on Lutherans and Catholics that the struggle of the sixteenth century is over, with the possible exception of the burgeoning lay Internet Apologist/Polemicist Community, with fervent representatives from all Christian denominations, for whom the conflicts of the 16th century constitute a veritable bottomless goldmine of venom. The reasons for mutually condemning each other’s faith have fallen by the wayside.

 

[LutheranScholar]

Agreed on Catholic anti-Semitism - now that I think about it my phrase “16th century Christian culture” would include Catholicism to a fairly large degree, alongside the Protestants.

Proposed edit to Paragraph 238

Catholics and Lutherans realize that they and the communities in which they live out their faith belong to the one body of Christ. The awareness is dawning on Lutherans and Catholics that the struggle of the sixteenth century is over, with the possible exception of the burgeoning lay Internet Apologist/Polemicist Community, with fervent representatives from all Christian denominations, **for whom the conflicts of the 16th century constitute a veritable bottomless goldmine of venom. **The reasons for mutually condemning each other’s faith have fallen by the wayside.

Being fervent in one’s beliefs is indeed one thing, but perhaps expressing that devotion through mutual condemnations of others is something else entirely. I am reminded of my Confirmation Verse, John 15:5, where Jesus is giving his farewell sermon: " I am the vine; you are the branches. Whoever abides in me and I in him, he it is that bears much fruit, for apart from me you can do nothing" ( John 15:5). Only in Jesus can we get anything done, for without Him, we truly are lost souls intent on biting at one another, which reminds me of the admonition of St. Paul: " But if you bite and devour one another, watch out that you are not consumed by one another" ( Galatians 5:15).

All judgment has been given to the Son by the Father and only the Holy Spirit can truly regenerate our hearts so that we can follow the Law and be revitalized and encouraged by the Gospel.

 

[FollowChrist34]

Indeed. Those so politely called polemicists here would be denounced as** trolls** on other forums. Being fervent in one’s beliefs is indeed one thing, but perhaps expressing that devotion through mutual condemnations of others is something else entirely. I am reminded of my Confirmation Verse, John 15:5, where Jesus is giving his farewell sermon: " I am the vine; you are the branches. Whoever abides in me and I in him, he it is that bears much fruit, for apart from me you can do nothing" ( John 15:5). Only in Jesus can we get anything done, for without Him, we truly are lost souls intent on biting at one another, which reminds me of the admonition of St. Paul: " But if you bite and devour one another, watch out that you are not consumed by one another" ( Galatians 5:15).

All judgment has been given to the Son by the Father and only the Holy Spirit can truly regenerate our hearts so that we can follow the Law and be revitalized and encouraged by the Gospel.

I do agree with you totally here. I have pointed out many times the blackness of heart that comes with much of the “polemicism.” (primarily from the home team but also sometimes the visitors…) We all know from our Bible what happens to those whose hearts are stone…it’s not pretty and very hot. I don’t care who your opponent is. I can handle passion, even bursts of anger, but sometimes I swear that it is just venom - absolutely no desire to connect, see or reach the other person as a fellow Christian at all. Scary stuff. We have all been victims of it. I hope to God I have never done it to anyone - certainly was not intentional.

 

[LutheranScholar]

I do agree with you totally here. I have pointed out many times the blackness of heart that comes with much of the “polemicism.” (primarily from the home team but also sometimes the visitors…) We all know from our Bible what happens to those whose hearts are stone…it’s not pretty and very hot. I don’t care who your opponent is. I can handle passion, even bursts of anger, but sometimes I swear that it is just venom - absolutely no desire to connect, see or reach the other person as a fellow Christian at all. Scary stuff. We have all been victims of it. I hope to God I have never done it to anyone - certainly was not intentional.

Well, as my minister said to me after I’d gone through a list of my sins during the Rite of Confession and Absolution last week, " it sounds to me like you’re just as human as anybody else, maybe indulging in unnecessary guilt." Not to minimize it, but usually, the first reaction is the human, sinful reaction. Then we have, " forgive me my trespasses, as I forgive those who trespass against me." It’s hard to tell the heart of somebody on another keyboard. All we have are the words, not the tone, or the facial expressions of the person using the words. Yeah, I’m aware that the impenitent and stone- hearted are destined for the black flames of Hell,.as we all are apart from God’s grace and forgiveness. Thank you for helping me to put the brakes on my own " polemic."

 

[FollowChrist34]

Well, as my minister said to me after I’d gone through a list of my sins during the Rite of Confession and Absolution last week, " it sounds to me like you’re just as human as anybody else, maybe indulging in unnecessary guilt." Not to minimize it, but usually, the first reaction is the human, sinful reaction. Then we have, " forgive me my trespasses, as I forgive those who trespass against me." It’s hard to tell the heart of somebody on another keyboard. All we have are the words, not the tone, or the facial expressions of the person using the words. Yeah, I’m aware that the impenitent and stone- hearted are destined for the black flames of Hell,.as we all are apart from God’s grace and forgiveness. Thank you for helping me to put the brakes on my own " polemic."

Please don’t take this the wrong way - it is meant as a compliment - but you sound more Catholic than me sometimes, a good one I mean. And thank you for pointing out that we should not try and know others’ hearts from posts. Touché. I need to remember that.

 

[Don_Ruggero]

Agreed on Catholic anti-Semitism - now that I think about it my phrase “16th century Christian culture” would include Catholicism to a fairly large degree, alongside the Protestants.

Proposed edit to Paragraph 238

Catholics and Lutherans realize that they and the communities in which they live out their faith belong to the one body of Christ. The awareness is dawning on Lutherans and Catholics that the struggle of the sixteenth century is over, with the possible exception of the burgeoning lay Internet Apologist/Polemicist Community, with fervent representatives from all Christian denominations, for whom the conflicts of the 16th century constitute a veritable bottomless goldmine of venom. The reasons for mutually condemning each other’s faith have fallen by the wayside.

As a theologian, I have to say I have been frankly disturbed by the contributions of various posters on this Catholic Answers Forum who say that they are Catholic but who, in point of fact, take attitudes and positions diametrically opposed to the orientations given by the Holy See…from Unitatis Redintegratio to the most recent pronouncements of PCPCU. It is not a service to the Church or the Holy See to misrepresent its thought.

Both sides of the table, thankfully, have confronted the horrors of the antisemitism that history plainly demonstrates. That is beyond the scope of From Conflict to Communion. The latter document does address the errors of the past…the sins against unity, to use the document’s terminology:

*Catholic confession of sins against unity

1. Already in his message to the imperial diet in Nuremberg on 25 November 1522, Pope Hadrian VI complained of abuses and trespasses, sins and errors insofar as church authorities had committed them. Much later, during the last century, Pope Paul VI, in his opening speech at the second session of the Second Vatican Council, asked pardon from God and the divided “brethren” of the East. This gesture of the pope found expression in the Council itself, above all in the Decree on Ecumenism and in the Declaration on Relationship of the Church to Non-Christian Religions (Nostra Aetate)
2. In a Lenten sermon, “Day of Pardon,” Pope John Paul II similarly acknowledged guilt and offered prayers for forgiveness as part of the observance of the 2000 Holy Year. He was the first not simply to repeat the regret of his predecessors Paul VI and the council fathers regarding the painful memories, but actually to do something about it. He also related the request for forgiveness to the office of bishop of Rome. In his encyclical Ut Unum Sint, he alludes to his visit to the World Council of Churches in Geneva on 12 June 1984, admitting, “the Catholic conviction that in the ministry of the bishop of Rome she has preserved in fidelity to the Apostolic Tradition and faith of the Fathers, the visible sign and guarantor of unity constitutes a difficulty for most other Christians, whose memory is marked by certain painful recollections.” He then added, “As far as we are responsible for these, I join with my predecessor Paul VI in asking forgiveness.”

Lutheran confession of sins against unity

1. At its fifth Assembly in Evian in 1970, the Lutheran World Federation declared in response to a deeply moving presentation by Jan Cardinal Willebrands “that we as Lutheran Christians and congregations [are] prepared to acknowledge that the judgment of the Reformers upon the Roman Catholic Church and its theology was not entirely free of polemical distortions, which in part have been perpetuated to the present day. We are truly sorry for the offense and misunderstanding which these polemic elements have caused our Roman Catholic brethren. We remember with gratitude the statement of Pope Paul VI to the Second Vatican Council in which he communicates his plea for forgiveness for any offense caused by the Roman Catholic Church. As we together with all Christians pray for forgiveness in the prayer our Lord has taught us, let us strive for clear, honest, and charitable language in all our conversations.”
2. Lutherans also confessed their wrongdoings with respect to other Christian traditions. At its eleventh Assembly in Stuttgart in 2010, the Lutheran World Federation declared that Lutherans “are filled with a deep sense of regret and pain over the persecution of Anabaptists by Lutheran authorities and especially over the fact that Lutheran reformers theologically supported this persecution. Thus, the Lutheran World Federation… wishes to express publicly its deep regret and sorrow. Trusting in God who in Jesus Christ was reconciling the world to himself, we ask for forgiveness—from God and from our Mennonite sisters and brothers—for the harm that our forbears in the sixteenth century committed to Anabaptists, for forgetting or ignoring this persecution in the intervening centuries, and for all inappropriate, misleading and hurtful portraits of Anabaptists and Mennonites made by Lutheran authors, in both popular and scholarly forms, to the present day.”*

 

[LutheranScholar]

Please don’t take this the wrong way - it is meant as a compliment - but you sound more Catholic than me sometimes, a good one I mean. And thank you for pointing out that we should not try and know others’ hearts from posts. Touché. I need to remember that.

:tiphat: Thank you, sir! I’m just one more Evangelical Lutheran Christian trying to use the Means of Grace to strengthen my own faith ( and generally falling flat on my face), but the Lord is patient and I just pray that patience wins out. Your tone to date has been far more Christian than my own and for that, I definitely salute you.

 

[Peter_J]

As a theologian, I have to say I have been frankly disturbed by the contributions of various posters on this Catholic Answers Forum who say that they are Catholic but who, in point of fact, take attitudes and positions diametrically opposed to the orientations given by the Holy See…from Unitatis Redintegratio to the most recent pronouncements of PCPCU. It is not a service to the Church or the Holy See to misrepresent its thought.

Both sides of the table, thankfully, have confronted the horrors of the antisemitism that history plainly demonstrates. That is beyond the scope of From Conflict to Communion. The latter document does address the errors of the past…the sins against unity, to use the document’s terminology:

*Catholic confession of sins against unity

1. Already in his message to the imperial diet in Nuremberg on 25 November 1522, Pope Hadrian VI complained of abuses and trespasses, sins and errors insofar as church authorities had committed them. Much later, during the last century, Pope Paul VI, in his opening speech at the second session of the Second Vatican Council, asked pardon from God and the divided “brethren” of the East. This gesture of the pope found expression in the Council itself, above all in the Decree on Ecumenism and in the Declaration on Relationship of the Church to Non-Christian Religions (Nostra Aetate)
2. In a Lenten sermon, “Day of Pardon,” Pope John Paul II similarly acknowledged guilt and offered prayers for forgiveness as part of the observance of the 2000 Holy Year. He was the first not simply to repeat the regret of his predecessors Paul VI and the council fathers regarding the painful memories, but actually to do something about it. He also related the request for forgiveness to the office of bishop of Rome. In his encyclical Ut Unum Sint, he alludes to his visit to the World Council of Churches in Geneva on 12 June 1984, admitting, “the Catholic conviction that in the ministry of the bishop of Rome she has preserved in fidelity to the Apostolic Tradition and faith of the Fathers, the visible sign and guarantor of unity constitutes a difficulty for most other Christians, whose memory is marked by certain painful recollections.” He then added, “As far as we are responsible for these, I join with my predecessor Paul VI in asking forgiveness.”

Lutheran confession of sins against unity

1. At its fifth Assembly in Evian in 1970, the Lutheran World Federation declared in response to a deeply moving presentation by Jan Cardinal Willebrands “that we as Lutheran Christians and congregations [are] prepared to acknowledge that the judgment of the Reformers upon the Roman Catholic Church and its theology was not entirely free of polemical distortions, which in part have been perpetuated to the present day. We are truly sorry for the offense and misunderstanding which these polemic elements have caused our Roman Catholic brethren. We remember with gratitude the statement of Pope Paul VI to the Second Vatican Council in which he communicates his plea for forgiveness for any offense caused by the Roman Catholic Church. As we together with all Christians pray for forgiveness in the prayer our Lord has taught us, let us strive for clear, honest, and charitable language in all our conversations.”
2. Lutherans also confessed their wrongdoings with respect to other Christian traditions. At its eleventh Assembly in Stuttgart in 2010, the Lutheran World Federation declared that Lutherans “are filled with a deep sense of regret and pain over the persecution of Anabaptists by Lutheran authorities and especially over the fact that Lutheran reformers theologically supported this persecution. Thus, the Lutheran World Federation… wishes to express publicly its deep regret and sorrow. Trusting in God who in Jesus Christ was reconciling the world to himself, we ask for forgiveness—from God and from our Mennonite sisters and brothers—for the harm that our forbears in the sixteenth century committed to Anabaptists, for forgetting or ignoring this persecution in the intervening centuries, and for all inappropriate, misleading and hurtful portraits of Anabaptists and Mennonites made by Lutheran authors, in both popular and scholarly forms, to the present day.”*

That is a great passage.

As far as Catholic and Lutheran discussion forums, I’ve been a long time participant on the former but scarcely on the latter. But I’m going to try, for a change, splitting my time equally between them.

 

[JustaServant]

As a theologian, I have to say I have been frankly disturbed by the contributions of various posters on this Catholic Answers Forum who say that they are Catholic but who, in point of fact, take attitudes and positions diametrically opposed to the orientations given by the Holy See…from Unitatis Redintegratio to the most recent pronouncements of PCPCU. It is not a service to the Church or the Holy See to misrepresent its thought.

I understand your frustration Father.
On CAF we all seem to engage in the game whack-a-mole.
Or is that whack-a-Trad?

 

[LutheranScholar]

While my church is not affiliated with the Lutheran World Federation, we are affiliated with the International Lutheran Council, which is a worldwide association of Confessional Lutheran Church bodies and we also have been holding dialogue with the Pontifical Council for Promoting Christian Unity as can be seen in this copy/ paste of the ILC blog portion of its website: ilc-online.org/blog/:

Second Meeting of the ILC-PCPCU Dialogue Group
Posted on May 12, 2016 by Mathew Block

GERMANY – On May 6-7, 2016 the Dialogue Group of the International Lutheran Council (ILC) and the Pontifical Council for Promoting Christian Unity (PCPCU) met for the second time. The venue was the Augustinian Monastery at Erfurt, Germany. Delegates on the Roman Catholic side were Dr. Josef Freitag (Erfurt, Germany) Dr. Grant Kaplan (Mainz, Germany/St. Louis, USA), Dr. Burkhard Neumann (Paderborn, Germany) and Fr. Dr. Augustinus Sander (Maria Laach, Germany). Delegates on the Lutheran side were Rev. Dr. Albert Collver III (St. Louis, USA), Dr. Werner Klän (Oberursel, Germany) Dr. John Stephenson (St. Catharines, Canada), Dr. Roland Ziegler (Ft. Wayne, USA). Unable to attend the meeting were Lutheran delegate Dr. Gerson Linden (Sao Leopoldo, Brasil) and Roman Catholic delegate Dr. Wolfgang Thoenissen (Paderborn, Germany).

As agreed upon at the first meeting, held in Oberursel, Germany in October 2015, the chief topic was the Sacrifice of the Mass. Presentations were given on Articles 24 of the Augsburg confession and its Apology by Dr. Neumann from a Roman-Catholic perspective, and by Rev. Dr. Collver from a Lutheran perspective. It was noted that the terminology on sacrifice was used in a complex manner already in the 16th century, and ambiguously at times as well. Additionally, changes in the understanding of what “sacrifice” means, occurred—especially in the Roman-Catholic camp—before the Second Vatican Council and beyond. The Dialogue Group also discussed issues like “opus operatum,” commemoration and representation of Christ’s sacrifice on the Cross, faith and the receiving of the sacramental gift, the Eucharistic Prayer, and the connection between the celebration of the Lord’s Supper with the whole of the liturgy.

For the next meeting, the Dialogue Group established working groups to address: a) how Lutheran liturgies addressed the concept of sacrifice and the sacrifice (of the Mass) from a Roman Catholic perspective,and how the concept has developed in Roman Catholic liturgies since the 16th century as seen from a Lutheran perspective, b) an evaluation of Lutheran-Roman Catholic dialogue on the theme of the Eucharist and the theology of the Lord’s Supper over the last half century, and c) a historical survey of developments and changes in the interpretation of the sacrificial dimension of the Lord’s Supper that affect how each side understands its own confession and that of its dialogue partner.

———————

Posted in FeaturedCATHOLIC CONFESSIONAL LUTHERAN DIALOGUE EUCHARIST HOLY COMMUNION ILC INTERNATIONAL LUTHERAN COUNCIL LORD’S SUPPER LUTHERAN MASS PCPCU PONTIFICAL COUNCIL FOR PROMOTING CHRISTIAN UNITY ROMAN CATHOLIC SACRIFICELeave a comment

 

[FollowChrist34]

As a theologian, I have to say I have been frankly disturbed by the contributions of various posters on this Catholic Answers Forum who say that they are Catholic but who, in point of fact, take attitudes and positions diametrically opposed to the orientations given by the Holy See…from Unitatis Redintegratio to the most recent pronouncements of PCPCU. It is not a service to the Church or the Holy See to misrepresent its thought.

Both sides of the table, thankfully, have confronted the horrors of the antisemitism that history plainly demonstrates. That is beyond the scope of From Conflict to Communion. The latter document does address the errors of the past…the sins against unity, to use the document’s terminology:

*Catholic confession of sins against unity

1. Already in his message to the imperial diet in Nuremberg on 25 November 1522, Pope Hadrian VI complained of abuses and trespasses, sins and errors insofar as church authorities had committed them. Much later, during the last century, Pope Paul VI, in his opening speech at the second session of the Second Vatican Council, asked pardon from God and the divided “brethren” of the East. This gesture of the pope found expression in the Council itself, above all in the Decree on Ecumenism and in the Declaration on Relationship of the Church to Non-Christian Religions (Nostra Aetate)
2. In a Lenten sermon, “Day of Pardon,” Pope John Paul II similarly acknowledged guilt and offered prayers for forgiveness as part of the observance of the 2000 Holy Year. He was the first not simply to repeat the regret of his predecessors Paul VI and the council fathers regarding the painful memories, but actually to do something about it. He also related the request for forgiveness to the office of bishop of Rome. In his encyclical Ut Unum Sint, he alludes to his visit to the World Council of Churches in Geneva on 12 June 1984, admitting, “the Catholic conviction that in the ministry of the bishop of Rome she has preserved in fidelity to the Apostolic Tradition and faith of the Fathers, the visible sign and guarantor of unity constitutes a difficulty for most other Christians, whose memory is marked by certain painful recollections.” He then added, “As far as we are responsible for these, I join with my predecessor Paul VI in asking forgiveness.”

Lutheran confession of sins against unity

1. At its fifth Assembly in Evian in 1970, the Lutheran World Federation declared in response to a deeply moving presentation by Jan Cardinal Willebrands “that we as Lutheran Christians and congregations [are] prepared to acknowledge that the judgment of the Reformers upon the Roman Catholic Church and its theology was not entirely free of polemical distortions, which in part have been perpetuated to the present day. We are truly sorry for the offense and misunderstanding which these polemic elements have caused our Roman Catholic brethren. We remember with gratitude the statement of Pope Paul VI to the Second Vatican Council in which he communicates his plea for forgiveness for any offense caused by the Roman Catholic Church. As we together with all Christians pray for forgiveness in the prayer our Lord has taught us, let us strive for clear, honest, and charitable language in all our conversations.”
2. Lutherans also confessed their wrongdoings with respect to other Christian traditions. At its eleventh Assembly in Stuttgart in 2010, the Lutheran World Federation declared that Lutherans “are filled with a deep sense of regret and pain over the persecution of Anabaptists by Lutheran authorities and especially over the fact that Lutheran reformers theologically supported this persecution. Thus, the Lutheran World Federation… wishes to express publicly its deep regret and sorrow. Trusting in God who in Jesus Christ was reconciling the world to himself, we ask for forgiveness—from God and from our Mennonite sisters and brothers—for the harm that our forbears in the sixteenth century committed to Anabaptists, for forgetting or ignoring this persecution in the intervening centuries, and for all inappropriate, misleading and hurtful portraits of Anabaptists and Mennonites made by Lutheran authors, in both popular and scholarly forms, to the present day.”*

I could not agree more with this.

 

[FollowChrist34]

:tiphat: Thank you, sir! I’m just one more Evangelical Lutheran Christian trying to use the Means of Grace to strengthen my own faith ( and generally falling flat on my face), but the Lord is patient and I just pray that patience wins out. Your tone to date has been far more Christian than my own and for that, I definitely salute you.

Why thank you! (it’s ma’am for future reference…) I too appeal to the Lord’s patience on a pretty regular basis, probably should do so more.
:curtsey:

 

[LutheranScholar]

Why thank you! (it’s ma’am for future reference…) I too appeal to the Lord’s patience on a pretty regular basis, probably should do so more.
:curtsey:

Pardon me, ma’am, please. I can only point to my own inherent tendency to make assumptions for that faux pas. You’re quite welcome, although to my mind, I was only expressing an observation. May the Lord continue being infinitely patient with us poor, banished children of Eve, mourning and weeping in this vale of tears. We need that Patience.

 

[jcrichton]

As a theologian, I have to say I have been frankly disturbed by the contributions of various posters on this Catholic Answers Forum who say that they are Catholic but who, in point of fact, take attitudes and positions diametrically opposed to the orientations given by the Holy See…from Unitatis Redintegratio to the most recent pronouncements of PCPCU. It is not a service to the Church or the Holy See to misrepresent its thought.

Both sides of the table, thankfully, have confronted the horrors of the antisemitism that history plainly demonstrates. That is beyond the scope of From Conflict to Communion. The latter document does address the errors of the past…the sins against unity, to use the document’s terminology:

*Catholic confession of sins against unity

1. Already in his message to the imperial diet in Nuremberg on 25 November 1522, Pope Hadrian VI complained of abuses and trespasses, sins and errors insofar as church authorities had committed them. Much later, during the last century, Pope Paul VI, in his opening speech at the second session of the Second Vatican Council, asked pardon from God and the divided “brethren” of the East. This gesture of the pope found expression in the Council itself, above all in the Decree on Ecumenism and in the Declaration on Relationship of the Church to Non-Christian Religions (Nostra Aetate)
2. In a Lenten sermon, “Day of Pardon,” Pope John Paul II similarly acknowledged guilt and offered prayers for forgiveness as part of the observance of the 2000 Holy Year. He was the first not simply to repeat the regret of his predecessors Paul VI and the council fathers regarding the painful memories, but actually to do something about it. He also related the request for forgiveness to the office of bishop of Rome. In his encyclical Ut Unum Sint, he alludes to his visit to the World Council of Churches in Geneva on 12 June 1984, admitting, “the Catholic conviction that in the ministry of the bishop of Rome she has preserved in fidelity to the Apostolic Tradition and faith of the Fathers, the visible sign and guarantor of unity constitutes a difficulty for most other Christians, whose memory is marked by certain painful recollections.” He then added, “As far as we are responsible for these, I join with my predecessor Paul VI in asking forgiveness.”

Lutheran confession of sins against unity

1. At its fifth Assembly in Evian in 1970, the Lutheran World Federation declared in response to a deeply moving presentation by Jan Cardinal Willebrands “that we as Lutheran Christians and congregations [are] prepared to acknowledge that the judgment of the Reformers upon the Roman Catholic Church and its theology was not entirely free of polemical distortions, which in part have been perpetuated to the present day. We are truly sorry for the offense and misunderstanding which these polemic elements have caused our Roman Catholic brethren. We remember with gratitude the statement of Pope Paul VI to the Second Vatican Council in which he communicates his plea for forgiveness for any offense caused by the Roman Catholic Church. As we together with all Christians pray for forgiveness in the prayer our Lord has taught us, let us strive for clear, honest, and charitable language in all our conversations.”
2. Lutherans also confessed their wrongdoings with respect to other Christian traditions. At its eleventh Assembly in Stuttgart in 2010, the Lutheran World Federation declared that Lutherans “are filled with a deep sense of regret and pain over the persecution of Anabaptists by Lutheran authorities and especially over the fact that Lutheran reformers theologically supported this persecution. Thus, the Lutheran World Federation… wishes to express publicly its deep regret and sorrow. Trusting in God who in Jesus Christ was reconciling the world to himself, we ask for forgiveness—from God and from our Mennonite sisters and brothers—”*

Hi, Father!
I don’t mean to be disrespectful, but have you considered that it is because of historical blame and oppression that these issues are still fervent in the mind and heart of many?

These issues will not go away just by wishing them so or by citing records (which, I suspect are not red by the masses, I myself included). So while it does seems that we are in a battle… these battles, I believe, are necessary to bring the Truth to bear beyond the volumes of recorded data and into the heart and mind of every Christian.

When I was a child (about 6 years old) I came out of the Sunday Mass thinking that I needed to hate Jews–they had murder Christ, my Lord and Savior… no one taught me that… I picked it up from the Reading of the day; while that lasted only a few hours (though I clearly remember having stated that I hated the Jews and spitting on the ground), the Holy Spirit broadened my understanding and I saw the Crucifixion as a necessary evil… and if Jesus could forgive those who acted against Him, why couldn’t I?

…now, imagine if some around me would have had anti-Semitic feelings and would have gotten hold of me when I was going through my episode? I could have had been immersed in that hatred all of my life… I believe that this is the issue that we face when good Faith relations (Christian ecumenism) does not trickle to the bottom.

Years of distrust, deception, oppression and hatred, (actual and perceived), fueled by erroneous personal conviction will not be undone until these accounts (claims and accusations) are brought to light; man is quick to judge and exceedingly proficient in not letting go of all things psyche.

Perhaps if more people with better mind/understanding would engage the hordes (of which I can be an active member), offering both civility and factual historical accounts these issues would dissolve and Christian Unity would cease being a dreamquest!

Maran atha!

Angel

 

[LutheranScholar]

Obviously, practices, culture, traditions, and society at large have changed since the 16th century. So on a visible level, the church of Luther’s youth may not be fully apparent today, since naturally change occurs on a variety of levels in the church. The Catholic Church has never looked the same in every century. But on the level of doctrine and even hierarchy, would Luther still be Catholic if he were alive today? Considering the clarifications of the church’s position on justification, for example. “Faith alone” if understood as the Catholic “formed faith” (the virtue of faith paired with hope and charity) is not necessarily theologically wrong, as has been pointed out in several ways.

Thoughts?

Would Luther see issues in the church today (that he also pointed out in the 1500s) that would cause him to ultimately break union an form his own church, for example?

The church in every age is not without sinners and scandals. But the church at Rome today is not as… scandalous as it was in Luther’s time. Just a variety of considerations…

Well, honestly, if he didn’t have to deal with a pill like Johann Tetzel, or the likes of Leo X, I honestly don’t see why he wouldn’t be a Catholic today. Perhaps if his scrupulosity were addressed by the psychological help available today, he wouldn’t have been obsessively running to Confession. Perhaps the reforms he so ardently desired would have already been implemented by a Catholic Church disengaged from politics and his piety would have been like that of my other hero, St. Francis of Assisi, where he would have kept his focus on the Law and Gospel, but he would have been more involved with the villagers of Saxony and taught the faith in a more personal, " man to God with Jesus at the Center" way.

 

[jcrichton]

Well, honestly, if he didn’t have to deal with a pill like Johann Tetzel, or the likes of Leo X, I honestly don’t see why he wouldn’t be a Catholic today. Perhaps if his scrupulosity were addressed by the psychological help available today, he wouldn’t have been obsessively running to Confession. Perhaps the reforms he so ardently desired would have already been implemented by a Catholic Church disengaged from politics and his piety would have been like that of my other hero, St. Francis of Assisi, where he would have kept his focus on the Law and Gospel, but he would have been more involved with the villagers of Saxony and taught the faith in a more personal, " man to God with Jesus at the Center" way.

…problem is that we are distinct… just as we are part of our demographic and environment, we are part of our personal convictions… where one person sees a bunny rabbit, another person sees a butterfly (Rorschach); when we enter the spiritual realm… well, now we are looking into a man looking into himself while searching for God…

While both St. Francis and Luther were, in my estimation, Guided by the Holy Spirit to arrest issues within the Church, the Mystical Body of God, they both responded from their convictions and with whatever weaknesses or strengths, they acted or got carried away in their determination to Follow God–again from my estimation, St. Francis remained humble in his efforts to enable the Holy Spirit to work through him (even if he took humility to an extreme); while Luther allowed both his ego and the rebellious voices around him to fuel his piety.

Both these men took different paths to ushering change in the Church; St. Francis saw obedience to Scriptures as his higher gain:

1 Let everyone be subject to the governing authorities, for there is no authority except that which God has established. The authorities that exist have been established by God. 2 Consequently, whoever rebels against the authority is rebelling against what God has instituted, and those who do so will bring judgment on themselves. 3 For rulers hold no terror for those who do right, but for those who do wrong. Do you want to be free from fear of the one in authority? Then do what is right and you will be commended. 4 For the one in authority is God’s servant for your good. (Romans 13:1:4)

Maran atha!

Angel

 

[LutheranScholar]

…problem is that we are distinct… just as we are part of our demographic and environment, we are part of our personal convictions… where one person sees a bunny rabbit, another person sees a butterfly (Rorschach); when we enter the spiritual realm… well, now we are looking into a man looking into himself while searching for God…

While both St. Francis and Luther were, in my estimation, Guided by the Holy Spirit to arrest issues within the Church, the Mystical Body of God, they both responded from their convictions and with whatever weaknesses or strengths, they acted or got carried away in their determination to Follow God–again from my estimation, St. Francis remained humble in his efforts to enable the Holy Spirit to work through him (even if he took humility to an extreme); while Luther allowed both his ego and the rebellious voices around him to fuel his piety.

Both these men took different paths to ushering change in the Church; St. Francis saw obedience to Scriptures as his higher gain:

Maran atha!

Angel

That’s very true. Nobody’s an island, but they have their families, old memories, friends of similar backgrounds and experiences and their own lives as well as their faith journeys and those who accompany them on those journeys to draw their impressions from. Just imagine what reading and studying Romans chapter five would have done for somebody whom one could almost call fastidious in his faith such as Martin Luther!

*Peace with God Through Faith

5 Therefore, since we have been justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ. 2 Through him we have also obtained access by faith into this grace in which we stand, and we rejoice in hope of the glory of God. 3 Not only that, but we rejoice in our sufferings, knowing that suffering produces endurance, 4 and endurance produces character, and character produces hope, 5 and hope does not put us to shame, because God’s love has been poured into our hearts through the Holy Spirit who has been given to us.
6 For while we were still weak, at the right time Christ died for the ungodly. 7 For one will scarcely die for a righteous person—though perhaps for a good person one would dare even to die—8 but God shows his love for us in that while we were still sinners, Christ died for us. 9 Since, therefore, we have now been justified by his blood, much more shall we be saved by him from the wrath of God. 10 For if while we were enemies we were reconciled to God by the death of his Son, much more, now that we are reconciled, shall we be saved by his life. 11 More than that, we also rejoice in God through our Lord Jesus Christ, through whom we have now received reconciliation.
Death in Adam, Life in Christ

12 Therefore, just as sin came into the world through one man, and death through sin, and so death spread to all men because wall sinned—13 for sin indeed was in the world before the law was given, but sin is not counted where there is no law. 14 Yet death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over those whose sinning was not like the transgression of Adam, who was a type of the one who was to come.
15 But the free gift is not like the trespass. For if many died through one man’s trespass, much more have the grace of God and the free gift by the grace of that one man Jesus Christ abounded for many. 16 And the free gift is not like the result of that one man’s sin. For the judgment following one trespass brought condemnation, but the free gift following many trespasses brought justification. 17 For if, because of one man’s trespass, death reigned through that one man, much more will those who receive the abundance of grace and the free gift of righteousness reign in life through the one man Jesus Christ.
18 Therefore, as one trespass led to condemnation for all men, so one act of righteousness leads to justification and life for fall men. 19 For as by the one man’s disobedience the many were made sinners, so by the one man’s obedience the many will be made righteous. 20 Now the law came in to increase the trespass, but where sin increased, grace abounded all the more, 21 so that, as sin reigned in death, grace also might reign through righteousness leading to eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.*

That had to be a powerful revelation to him and it set the tone for the dichotomy of Law and Gospel that he was to later refine in his preaching and writings. A powerful message, indeed. Without doubt, St. Francis and Martin Luther were polar opposites on the pride/ humility spectrum and while Luther struggled with that in his prayers, God seems to have given St. Francis a singular grace in identifying with the poorer people after that episode where he embraced the leper and clothed him, or after he lay in muck after being so scornfully dismissed by the Pope.