M
MichaelP3
Guest
True
Even though I am more of a spectator here, I just want to say you seemed very sincere throughout the whole thread rcwitness.
- Status
Even though I am more of a spectator here, I just want to say you seemed very sincere throughout the whole thread rcwitness.
P
Peter_J
Guest
I’m more into CAF’s “ignore list” feature myself (as you may have heard me say elsewhere) but you’re entitled to your approach too.
R
rcwitness
Guest
Thanks. I am aware that there needs to be proper admonishing for attitudes and accusations which which are opposed to the efforts made by the Church hierarchy’s dialogue with non-Catholic communities.
But we, as laity, are also challenged to account for the faith we have, and are even called to by that same hierarchy. So it’s right and good that we share our convictions and reasons for the beliefs we accept in our hearts. I’m not in the business of repromanding or using big authority to make silly threats about other’s positions and interpretations. But I will certainly offer a response to accusations that something we call Apostolic is actually anti-Christ.
To tell you the truth, I see the real concern over some of these things. I even see the real concern with the sect which calls St Paul a false Apostle! They make some very challenging points!
It’s not always so easy to disect these theories and interpretations. That’s why I try to express what is my personal conviction and thoughtful understanding.
I don’t demonize Martin and appreciate when others don’t demonize my leaders.
L
LutheranScholar
Guest
It’s a pretty effective tool to reduce blood pressure, encourage peace of mind and to smooth out your day. Yeah, the quote was funny, at that.
R
rcwitness
Guest
These Luther(an) threads do stir the pot though, don’t they?
It’s interesting. What was the extent and relationship with Luther and the Orthodox Church? Why did he not move into that communion? If Luther’s gripe was Papacy, it would seem likely to remain in a valid communion with them, who shares his sentiments/belief.
I think we have much more of a relationship with Lutherans because of the historical union we had with Luther, than Orthodox do with Lutherans. But doctrinal wouldn’t Lutherans be closer to Orthodox than with us?
It’s interesting. What was the extent and relationship with Luther and the Orthodox Church? Why did he not move into that communion? If Luther’s gripe was Papacy, it would seem likely to remain in a valid communion with them, who shares his sentiments/belief.
I think we have much more of a relationship with Lutherans because of the historical union we had with Luther, than Orthodox do with Lutherans. But doctrinal wouldn’t Lutherans be closer to Orthodox than with us?
L
Lenten_ashes
Guest
Well, didn’t he make remarks that he cant rely on councils and Church Fathers because they are contradicting each other? (paraphrase) EO’s claim to be the Church of the councils and they do rely on certain ECF’s for their liturgy and teachings (like John Chrysostom) So i understand why his initial reaction was to break free and go in his own direction. However, I think he likely re-evaluated his position later in his life and probably wished he did just consider the Eastern Churches. I know he was not pleased by all the division in the reformation and didn’t even want his own name attributed to any churches. Some people make him out to be the devil but i disagree with them. I think he just did what he thought was right at that time.
Both opposed papal authority, so I would say yes.
J
jcrichton
Guest
Hi, Peter!As a long-time participants on web discussion forums, I sometimes think that every one of us should put something like that in our signatures.
…I think that too many times we misread/misunderstand the thought of others (in our mind, our ideas are crystal clear because, as we are Created in the Image and Likeness of God, we have full knowledge of the origin of our thoughts–unfortunately, they don’t always translate to the word/text when we attempt to convey them to others); yet, often enough, instead of asking for clarification we strike at the jugular… it’s as if we completely forget Christ’s Command not to judge… so, instead of getting defensive we should attempt to reopen the dialogue (as I often try–though not ceding the point but rather asking for a chance to requalify the issue).
I find that levity helps–at least, it helps me!
Maran atha!
Angel
S
steido01
Guest
Lutheran Scholar highlighted the relevant portions of the Confessions, but I’d just like to add what that means practically. It means that when a Lutheran sins publicly, and publicly refuses to confess, they cannot commune. If Nancy Pelosi were LCMS, she would not be permitted to commune.
M
MaryT777
Guest
S
steido01
Guest
Distance, travel times, communication, and cultural differences were the practical barriers. The Tubingen Lutherans did reach out the the Orthodox (after Luther’s death). There was some dialogue on the Lutheran Augsburg Confession, but the Ecumenical Patriarch was preoccupied in local politics and didn’t want to get involved with 'schizmatic Rome’s issues. Dialogue came to a general standstill. It ended with the Patriarch essentially agreeing with the Lutherans on some things, but asking questions about others (he was especially concerned about the Flioque and the number of sacraments - Lutherans did not number them and left it too open-ended for him). He told them not to talk to contact him about theological things again, but only to write as a friend. Modern talks have been more fruitful.
The thing to keep in mind is that the Orthodox way of understanding ‘theosis’ is not entirely congruent with the ‘justification’ model that grew up in the West. Rome and Wittenberg ‘evolved’ one way, the East another. Lutheranism exists somewhere in the gray area between the two, but its closest sibling in common theological terms and thinking is Catholicism. (Well, probably some bits of Anglicanism and then Catholicsm… but you get what I mean.)
B
benjohnson
Guest
At our church we have an older rite that pronounces exactly that: During to corporate confession and abolition, our pastor will remind us that sins that are not confessed are retained by us.
It’s a very sobering rite.
M
MaryT777
Guest
B
benjohnson
Guest
I’d love to but I can’t seem to find any online resource - my hunch is that such things aren’t digitized.
M
MaryT777
Guest
P
Peter_J
Guest
And we appreciate his non-meddlesome approach (in retrospect anyhow – I know not whether Rome actually expressed any appreciation at the time).
G
gcnuss
Guest
The Service Book and Hymnal, in use in some Lutheran synods from 1958 through the late '80s , had an order for public confession in which the pronouncement of absolution was as follows: “Almighty God, our heavenly Father, hath had mercy upon us, and for the sake of the sufferings, death, and resurrection of his dear Son, Jesus Christ our Lord, forgiveth us all our sins. As a Minister of the Church of Christ, and by his authority, I therefore declare unto you who do truly repent and believe in him, the entire forgiveness of all your sins: In the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost.”
After this, the Minister may also say: “On the other hand, by the same authority, I declare unto the impenitent and unbelieving, that so long as they continue in their impenitence, God hath not forgiven their sins, and will assuredly visit their iniquities upon them, if they turn not from their evil ways, and come to true repentance and faith in Christ, ere the day of grace be ended.”
This, too, is sobering.
R
rcwitness
Guest
Thanks bro.
R
rcwitness
Guest
“meddlesome”? Sure, if that was the case.And we appreciate his non-meddlesome approach (in retrospect anyhow – I know not whether Rome actually expressed any appreciation at the time).
I, personally, would prefer (even expect) an honest and thoughtful judgment (answer/affirmation/admonishment) as opposed to what sounded like the cold shoulder…
B
benjohnson
Guest
I gave up and went to church to make a copy
J
JustaServant
Guest
If Luther were alive today, would he have his own reality show?
- Status