If Luther were alive today, would he be Catholic?

[GKC]

Take it from an old guy: It’s prudent to attempt to look up the context (including historical context) of something before citing it. It’s not always possible, but it’s a good habit to get into.

May your words be engraven in stone and highlighted in gilt.

 

[TertiumQuid]

Hi!
I’ve just followed the link to this:I do not doubt your findings but it seems that the quote comes from a different reference (Trishreden, Weimer Edition, Vol. 2, Pg. 107.)

The quote I said was mis-documented was in your post here: "It does not matter how Christ behaved – what He taught is all that matters”[59] . The link you originally used documents this quote as:

[59] Erlangen Vol. 29, Pg. 126

This new link your posting uses the same documentation:

(ref. Erlangen Vol. 29, Pg. 126).

The reason why this other link you’re citing is wrong also is because it plagiarized “Luther, Exposing the Myth.”

Be careful if you try the link, the opening page on the site goes right into an attack on Luther’s character and religiosity.

Yes, I know about this link as well. In the words of Monty Python: “Run away!”

Do you know if the Trishreden, Weimer Ed can be found, in English, on-line?

There are nineteenth century partial English translations available on-line. The best partial English translation can be found in Luther’s Works vol. 54. In terms of reading Luther, wouldn’t it be better to actually read something Luther actually wrote than read something he’s purported to have said?

Edited to add: The source is not “Trishreden,” but rather, Tischreden. This is another error perpetuated by the links you’re utilizing.

 

[jcrichton]

Sure.The comment was not serious. It was meant to point out is that there are times in which Luther is presented in forums like this as worse than he actually was (and on the flip-side, there are forums that present him as better than he was).

Early on this discussion you quoted and linked to an article entitled, “The Real Martin Luther Exposed.” It’s actually a version of an article originally entitled, “Luther, Exposing the Myth.” Not only is that article fraught with error, it presents Luther as worse than he actually was. I suspect you cited the article without knowing of it’s poor research, incorrect documentation, bogus use of context, and general slander towards a historical person.

I’ve gone over all the quotes presented in “Luther, Exposing the Myth.” I’ve found all the contexts (except one), and, more often than not, there is significant historical error being presented. The goal of going through particular quotes is not to defend Luther as a Protestant saint. I see the study of any person in church history as an exercise in the love of God and neighbor. How do I love my neighbor in the study of church history? There probably are many ways, but the one that applies here is in my words. If I bear false witness against my neighbor, even if he’s been dead for hundreds of years, I am not loving him. I say let the people in church history be exactly who they were, warts and all. Luther certainly had warts and sins, but he did not “kick the cat” as well on the way to posting the 95 Theses. That is, he is not as bad as many portray him to be.

Thanks!

My concern was that you might be intimating that Catholics pile on fabrication upon fabrication.

I concur with you that we should not bear false witness against anyone, even if they are long dead… yet, that’s a task that runs quite imperfectly throughout man’s machinations… I once experienced an issue with a local church where as a defense it was stated that even if the perpetrator did commit everything that he was accused of (even more) they should take into consideration his past contribution to the church–needless to say another break up of the Body of Christ as both supporters and non-supporters took sides… this remains a pertinent issue–that is my concern with deciphering Luther’s convictions and teachings.

The Church has been portrayed as the anti-Christ by Protestantism (never follow the variant demographics–the who’s who), the whore of Babylon, the Pope the anti-Christ, Catholics as non-Christians/non-patriotic, etc.; still, this does not cause me to place Luther in a bad light; yet, the fact remains, his revolt became the catalyst for the myriads of splinters in the Body… seeking out the truth about him might help to stop the cascade–in fact, might even revert some of the schisms.

Maran atha!

Angel

 

[jcrichton]

Take it from an old guy: It’s prudent to attempt to look up the context (including historical context) of something before citing it. It’s not always possible, but it’s a good habit to get into.

Luther didn’t write it. It’s said to be a recollection of what he is purported to have said. There is nothing heretical in what Luther is purported to have said in the quote you used. It’s actually a good observation. Consider the entire sentence:

“I myself must confess, that I can put more trust in my wife, and in every one of my friends, than in Christ: when as, notwithstanding, I well know, that none among them all would do and suffer for me that which he suffered, namely, to be crucified and slain for me.”

Where is even the hint of error here?** It’s a solid point**: The human condition is such that it will at times place more trust in temporal things than in God himself. There should be no debate over this.

non-sequitur

Romans 7:21-23.

Typo aside, non-sequitur.

The problem I have with your problem is that the statement purported to have been uttered by Luther was meant to encourage people to place their trust in Christ rather than elsewhere. What you see as a detrimental statement, I see as a pithy observation of human frailty and the need for people to trust entirely in Christ rather than others.

I guess it does go to interpretation… St. Paul admits that he, as we all are, is a sinner and that the flesh battles the Spirit not from without but from within–hardly a presentation of human reliance on human.

Again, had St. Paul stated or had been purported to have stated that he relies on his ability rather than Christ while knowing that it is Christ who died for him I would still hold my comment as a correct observation.

If it is proven that Luther did not make this or that statement, then we can dismiss it; to simply point to it as a teaching form… wow!

Maran atha!

Angel

PS: water is wet therefore I’m dry; that would be non-sequitur–not only that but quite erroneous as the human body is made up of fluid and we breath and perspire fluid 24/7!

 

[LutheranScholar]

Your claim is flawed because you do not accept Scripture as your basis for Belief–if you did you would not abrogate against the only Church Founded by Christ.

I do use Scriptures and I haven’t abrogated against the Church founded by Christ. Had I done that, I’d still be Roman Catholic, but as it is, I’m a member of the Church established by Christ in 33 A.D. and joyfully waiting for Him to come again.

You use terms of hatred–how are you accepting Jesus at His Command that the Church be One and that His Believers/Disciples demonstrate to the world that they are His Disciples and that He Came to the world? …need a hint? Love:

The Church is One, Holy, Christian and Apostolic. Indeed, God is love and those who claim to love God and hate their brothers lie and are still in darkness. Guess what: it wasn’t a Protestant who started this thread.

Your understanding of Scriptures is based on your own interpretation, the interpretation of your organization, and the flawed interpretation of those who rebelled against Christ’s Founded Church.

They stayed with Christ’s Founded Church. The ranting of somebody who used his position like a businessman is in no position to dictate who is and who is not a part of Christ’s Church: that is for Christ to decide, not a disgruntled cleric who tried to lure Luther to Rome so he could be murdered.

The Jehovah Witnesses, as you, claim the same authority and doctrine; self-election and representation: you have removed the authority of one Pope in order to conceive the authority of hundreds of thousands of popes… each one of you are the law and the inerrant definer of “what God’s Word really mean.” Does that not strike a commonsense nerve in your body?

" Hundreds of thousands of popes." Do you have any idea how ridiculous that sounds? We have One Head, even Christ Himself.

If you obey Scriptures, you would humbly secure your obedience to the Authority of the one Church that Christ Founded. You would seek to built Christ’s Mystical Body instead of continue an obstinate rebellious stance.

I *do *build Christ’s Mystical Body and far more effectively as a Lutheran who also serves the Church and God’s People in more ways than sitting on a pew every Sunday and HDO and going to Confession once a month as I used to do as a Catholic. I serve on the Church Council, I serve as a lector and I usher for my current parish. I notice that Lutherans are a bit more about service and a bit less about wheedling more money from the parishioners or dictating to them how they shall dress when they go to church. We also don’t have to deal with some infant’s endless screaming during Liturgy or standing in the back during a midnight Mass.

Maran atha!

Angel

 

[Hatikvah]

Oh no, * another* Luther thread!

As LutheranScholar implied, we always have the Church, no adjectives. The Church, which is the Communion of Saints, founded at Pentecost in 33 AD (10 days after the Lord’s resurrection, for reference).

Romans 8:38-39 clearly teaches us that nothing will separate us from the love of Christ; besides, there are no divisions in our identity in Christ (Galatians 3:28).

 

[MaryT777]

I do use Scriptures and I haven’t abrogated against the Church founded by Christ. Had I done that, I’d still be Roman Catholic, but as it is, I’m a member of the Church established by Christ in 33 A.D. and joyfully waiting for Him to come again.

The Church is One, Holy, Christian and Apostolic. Indeed, God is love and those who claim to love God and hate their brothers lie and are still in darkness. Guess what: it wasn’t a Protestant who started this thread.

They stayed with Christ’s Founded Church. The ranting of somebody who used his position like a businessman is in no position to dictate who is and who is not a part of Christ’s Church: that is for Christ to decide, not a disgruntled cleric who tried to lure Luther to Rome so he could be murdered.

" Hundreds of thousands of popes." Do you have any idea how ridiculous that sounds? We have One Head, even Christ Himself.

I *do *build Christ’s Mystical Body and far more effectively as a Lutheran who also serves the Church and God’s People in more ways than sitting on a pew every Sunday and HDO and going to Confession once a month as I used to do as a Catholic. I serve on the Church Council, I serve as a lector and I usher for my current parish. I notice that Lutherans are a bit more about service and a bit less about wheedling more money from the parishioners or dictating to them how they shall dress when they go to church. We also don’t have to deal with some infant’s endless screaming during Liturgy or standing in the back during a midnight Mass.

The last sentence is unnecessarily rude. I have attended LCMS liturgies for two years in the past and let me tell you the flip side of that coin is,against the 8th commandment. That is unfair and you know it.

 

[Hatikvah]

We also don’t have to deal with some infant’s endless screaming during Liturgy or standing in the back during a midnight Mass.

Lutheran babies don’t cry? Or is it, rather, that they go to childcare while in church?

 

[rcwitness]

I do use Scriptures and I haven’t abrogated against the Church founded by Christ.** Had I done that, I’d still be Roman Catholic**, but as it is, I’m a member of the Church established by Christ in 33 A.D. and joyfully waiting for Him to come again.

It makes no difference to me how you think you would behave if you were a practicing Catholic. But you are obviously very jaded. Jesus established one Church, and this Church gathers in local communities all over the face of the earth. There are degrees as to how “healthy” our relationship with the body is. Love knits us together, and we able to do this because we have the Spirit of His Son, "provided we suffer with His Son". Those who do not suffer with Him are not walking with Him. How can one who does not suffer with Him be justified in Him? He may have received the Word, and even been sanctified by Baptism, but when the trials and hardships of this world press we better have faith with works, or faith is rejected.

The Church is One, Holy, Christian and Apostolic. Indeed, God is love and those who claim to love God and hate their brothers lie and are still in darkness. Guess what: it wasn’t a Protestant who started this thread.

… who is hating?

I *do *build Christ’s Mystical Body and far more effectively as a Lutheran who also serves the Church and God’s People in more ways than sitting on a pew every Sunday and HDO and going to Confession once a month as I used to do as a Catholic. I serve on the Church Council, I serve as a lector and I usher for my current parish. I notice that Lutherans are a bit more about service and a bit less about wheedling more money from the parishioners or dictating to them how they shall dress when they go to church. We also don’t have to deal with some infant’s endless screaming during Liturgy or standing in the back during a midnight Mass.

I honestly have not experienced these behaviors you claim to have witnessed in a Catholic parish, but they are examples of trials that we are to bear on ourselves, just as our Lord did. He St Paul never told his flock to go to another Communion when faced with bad behavior. We are not called to go where there are less problems, so that you can enjoy positions of honor, such as lector, without admonishing the sinners around you with grace and charity.

I am getting the impression you are here to vent and belittle the Catholic faith. I would encourage you to fellowship with more respect and present your points without insulting. I would like to see you here for a long time.

 

[Peter_J]

Originally Posted by pablope

Jesus prayed that all who believed in Him would be ONE. Luther did the exact opposite.

.

If the pope hadn’t decided to go to war with Luther and his disciples instead of convening a council at Mantua as had been agreed, that rupture may never have even happened. Blame Pope Leo X, not Luther. We do.

NOt sure I understand this.
Jesus prayed that all who believed in Him would be ONE, but what exactly did Luther pray?

 

[MaryT777]

It makes no difference to me how you think you would behave if you were a practicing Catholic. But you are obviously very jaded. Jesus established one Church, and this Church gathers in local communities all over the face of the earth. There are degrees as to how “healthy” our relationship with the body is. Love knits us together, and we able to do this because we have the Spirit of His Son, "provided we suffer with His Son. Those who do not suffer with Him are not walking with Him. How can one who does not suffer with Him be justified in Him? He may have received the Word, and even been sanctified by Baptism, but when the trials and hardships of this world press we faith better not be without works, or faith is rejected.

… who is hating?

I honestly have not experienced these behaviors you claim to have witnessed in a Catholic parish, but they are examples of trials that we are to bear on ourselves, just as our Lord did. He St Paul never told his flock to go to another Communion when faced with bad behavior. We are not called to go where there are less problems, so that you can enjoy positions of honor, such as lector, without admonishing the sinners around you with grace and charity.

I am getting the impression you are here to vent and belittle the Catholic faith. I would encourage you to fellowship with more respect and present your points without insulting. I would like to see you here for a long time.

Well said.

 

[Hatikvah]

NOt sure I understand this.
Jesus prayed that all who believed in Him would be ONE, but what exactly did Luther pray?

He’s referring to the idea that Luther divided the Church. A prayer is an action, and so is division, so that makes sense.

 

[Peter_J]

Oh no, * another* Luther thread!

You’re only supposed to say that about the bad ones.

 

[Hatikvah]

You’re only supposed to say that about the bad ones.

Really? I just assumed! Maybe I’ve seen too many Luther threads… :hypno:

 

[FollowChrist34]

I know. I’ve always wondered how Luther would’ve reacted if he could see the ELCA and other liberal Lutheran bodies today.

:banghead:

Couple steps down from the “fanatics” would be my guess. If pressed to choose 2016 RCC or ELCA, he would prefer drinking blood with the Pope…no doubt in my mind. It is helpful to breakdown Luther’s work by chronology with respect to the birth of Protestantism and how he viewed Catholicism. Late Luther is very different from middle or early Luther. In terms of perspective I mean. I think it is safe to say he wanted a middle “reformed Catholic Church” ground (the one original Church) - in the end he objected to the corrupt excesses of the Catholicism of his day and much, really most, of what was emerging as new forms of Protestantism (beyond Lutheranism, a term he really disliked), again, this is even in his day… let alone ours. Luther is big on the centrality of the Word, established, mainstream, revealed creed and doctrine - same as ours today.

 

[jtpearson]

Demographically Luther born in Germany today would have around a 60% probability of being Christian. If he was Christian there’s around a 30% probability he’d be Catholic but of course would more likely be some flavor of Lutheran.

My point is that one’s specific doctrinal convictions are not even close to the final determinant of our specific confessional loyalty. Luther himself couldn’t bring all the Christian denominations back who trace their original break with Rome to his life and thought. Laity in any ecclesial community have a lot of reasons for belonging to their specific denomination that just don’t have anything to do with doctrinal issues (it’s how they were raised, services are close to home, great kids programs, etc. …).

That’s why, in my view, he should have ultimately preferred martyrdom to cession. In failing to do so he layed the historical framework for a severely compromised Chritian witness that is still with us today: the material disunity of Christ’s Church.

 

[rcwitness]

Demographically Luther born in Germany today would have around a 60% probability of being Christian. If he was Christian there’s around a 30% probability he’d be Catholic but of course would more likely be some flavor of Lutheran.

My point is that one’s specific doctrinal convictions are not even close to the final determinant of our specific confessional loyalty. Luther himself couldn’t bring all the Christian denominations back who trace their original break with Rome to his life and thought. Laity in any ecclesial community have a lot of reasons for belonging to their specific denomination that just don’t have anything to do with doctrinal issues (it’s how they were raised, services are close to home, great kids programs, etc. …).

That’s why, in my view, he should have ultimately preferred martyrdom to cession. In failing to do so he layed the historical framework for a severely compromised Chritian witness that is still with us today: the material disunity of Christ’s Church.

Very interesting post and perspective! Welcome to the forum!

 

[Peter_J]

Really? I just assumed! Maybe I’ve seen too many Luther threads… :hypno:

Heh. TBH I’ve been following this conversation but having trouble seeing the positive value of it – but I say that more as a gut reaction than a logical deduction.

 

[steido01]

MaryT777:
The last sentence is unnecessarily rude. I have attended LCMS liturgies for two years in the past and let me tell you the flip side of that coin is,against the 8th commandment. That is unfair and you know it.

I agree. And I like it when my babies scream in service. My oldest screeched louder than she ever had before/since immediately following a reading of Psalm 51:5. Needless to say, she reinforced the Law in that sermon.

 

[rcwitness]

I agree. And I like it when my babies scream in service. My oldest screeched louder than she ever had before/since immediately following a reading of Psalm 51:5. Needless to say, she reinforced the Law in that sermon.

Was she looking at mommy with that scream?