If Luther were alive today, would he be Catholic?

[LutheranScholar]

Unnecessarily rude. Really. Comparing my church with the Jehovah’s Witnesses was, of course, the height of civility and courtesy. Demeaning my faith, telling me what my motives are and saying what I do and do not believe is, of course, the fairest way to go about talking to me. Never mind. I came here for dialogue and I find people hurling obsolete polemic at me and my church. Yes, we do have Sunday School classes and nurseries that remain as options for those who would prefer their little ones to be looked after while they attend worship. Forget it. I see what this is and it’s devolved into an attack on my church ( where I shall join my brothers and sisters in Christ tomorrow and partake of the Body and Blood of my Savior, Jesus Christ). I will include you all in my prayers. The Peace of Christ be with you all.

 

[rcwitness]

I will include you all in my prayers. The Peace of Christ be with you all.

I would sincerely love that! Pray for the grace for me to be a good husband and father.

And I hope I will pray for your needs as well.
His peace be with you also…
Michael.

 

[JB_Brother_4446]

Unnecessarily rude. Really. Comparing my church with the Jehovah’s Witnesses was, of course, the height of civility and courtesy. Demeaning my faith, telling me what my motives are and saying what I do and do not believe is, of course, the fairest way to go about talking to me. Never mind. I came here for dialogue and I find people hurling obsolete polemic at me and my church. Yes, we do have Sunday School classes and nurseries that remain as options for those who would prefer their little ones to be looked after while they attend worship. Forget it. I see what this is and it’s devolved into an attack on my church ( where I shall join my brothers and sisters in Christ tomorrow and partake of the Body and Blood of my Savior, Jesus Christ). I will include you all in my prayers. The Peace of Christ be with you all.

You clearly showed your motives in that last sentence. Now you know how we feel. Call what my brothers say polemic. It is still truth.

 

[JB_Brother_4446]

They are* part* of it, certainly, but hardly the entire Church Catholic…achristianthing.wordpress.com/2013/08/02/too-damn-catholic/.

We ARE it NOT PART of it.

 

[Don_Ruggero]

Unnecessarily rude. Really. Comparing my church with the Jehovah’s Witnesses was, of course, the height of civility and courtesy. Demeaning my faith, telling me what my motives are and saying what I do and do not believe is, of course, the fairest way to go about talking to me. Never mind. I came here for dialogue and I find people hurling obsolete polemic at me and my church. Yes, we do have Sunday School classes and nurseries that remain as options for those who would prefer their little ones to be looked after while they attend worship. Forget it. I see what this is and it’s devolved into an attack on my church (where I shall join my brothers and sisters in Christ tomorrow and partake of the Body and Blood of my Savior, Jesus Christ). I will include you all in my prayers. The Peace of Christ be with you all.

I should say you have summed it up well. “Dialogue” is not something I can say I have actually seen in this forum from the Catholic participants in the way it has been done at all levels in these past decades in the real world, from PCPCU down to the local level…and no real discussion here of where we have arrived, as we mark the 50th anniversary of the Lutheran-Catholic Dialogue.

As for where we have actually arrived…For me, as a priest, I look forward to co-officiating with a Lutheran cleric in a joint ceremony of common prayer soon after the Pope and the President of the Lutheran World Federation inaugurate the world wide commemorations of the 500th anniversary of the Reformation this October 31. The Pope will go to Lund, Sweden, for this historic and momentous occasion…the planning for which began under Pope Benedict years ago.

At the end of the day, what matters is not what individual lay people say on some Internet forum…it is what the Holy Father says and does…and what the Holy See says and does…and where the Catholic Church has arrived on these issues. I rejoice that Catholic bishops across the United States, as in Europe and beyond, will be co-officiating with their Lutheran counterparts at these commemorations to be held at the local and national levels.

Having watched the progress now across these many years, this joint commemoration of the Reformation…and all that is actually going to happen in the midst of it…is a cause for joy and reflection, for both Catholics and Lutherans alike.

The Peace of Christ be also with you.

 

[Reuben_J]

I should say you have summed it up well. “Dialogue” is not something I can say I have actually seen in this forum from the Catholic participants in the way it has been done at all levels in these past decades in the real world, from PCPCU down to the local level…and no real discussion here of where we have arrived, as we mark the 50th anniversary of the Lutheran-Catholic Dialogue.

As for where we have actually arrived…For me, as a priest, I look forward to co-officiating with a Lutheran cleric in a joint ceremony of common prayer soon after the Pope and the President of the Lutheran World Federation inaugurate the world wide commemorations of the 500th anniversary of the Reformation this October 31. The Pope will go to Lund, Sweden, for this historic and momentous occasion…the planning for which began under Pope Benedict years ago.

At the end of the day, what matters is not what individual lay people say on some Internet forum…it is what the Holy Father says and does…and what the Holy See says and does…and where the Catholic Church has arrived on these issues. I rejoice that Catholic bishops across the United States, as in Europe and beyond, will be co-officiating with their Lutheran counterparts at these commemorations to be held at the local and national levels.

Having watched the progress now across these many years, this joint commemoration of the Reformation…and all that is actually going to happen in the midst of it…is a cause for joy and reflection, for both Catholics and Lutherans alike.

The Peace of Christ be also with you.

Year 2017 will also see the historic celebration of the Golden Jubilee of Catholic Charismatic Renewal on Pentecost at St. Peter Square. Pope Francis has called for the invitation to all Christians, not just Catholics, saying when the CCR began fifty years ago in Duquesne University, it started as ecumenical and now the fiftieth anniversary must also be ecumenical as well.

His magisterial document “the Church Rejuvenated” is his preparation for this great event next year.

**POPE FRANCIS RECEIVED THE CCR GOLDEN JUBILEE EXECUTIVE COMMITTEE IN A PRIVATE AUDIENCE
April 25, 2016

In a conversation lasting more than one hour, the Holy Father expressed his joy in receiving representatives from Catholic Charismatic Renewal. He emphasized that this is the time of the Spirit . He said, we are experiencing new things of the Spirit and we can see signs of this in so many places. He enthusiastically spoke about the work of the Holy Spirit that can be seen in unity, renewal and ecumenism.

The Holy Father reflected upon how in the past 50 years many things have changed in the Church. He spoke specifically about the ecumenical journey. He recalled stories from his childhood where meeting with ‘non Catholics’ was regarded as mortal sin. As 2017 is also the 500 anniversary of the Protestant Reformation, the Pope commented that, despite difficulties and some misunderstandings the general intention of Luther was to renew and reform the Church that at that time was living many scandals.

Emphasising that the Holy Spirit is at work among all people, the Holy Father said he was moved recently by a visit from the Nuncio of Mali who shared that in the cathedral of Mali, during the year of mercy, many people entered through the Holy Door. The crowds included many Muslims, who went to pray at the statue of the Virgin Mary.

Pope Francis emphasised that the Holy Spirit has been leading us for many years towards unity. He said that the Spirit is asking new things of us and that we should be prepared for the surprises of the Holy Spirit. He emphasised that the Great Jubilee of CCR, at Pentecost 2017, should be an occasion for all Christians, not just for Catholic Charismatics. So we need to gather and include all Christians. Reassuringly, the Holy Father said that he was with us that at this time God is preparing something very important.

After discussion about some practicalities relating to the preparations of the Golden Jubilee, the Pope assured us of his presence with us for the vigil of the Pentecost. He told us to go forward with courage even though at times there would be opposition. We then had an opportunity to pray with the Holy Father in the power of Holy Spirit.**

iccrs.org/en/pope-francis-received-the-ccr-golden-jubilee-executive-committee-in-a-private-audience/

 

[steido01]

Unnecessarily rude. Really. Comparing my church with the Jehovah’s Witnesses was, of course, the height of civility and courtesy. Demeaning my faith, telling me what my motives are and saying what I do and do not believe is, of course, the fairest way to go about talking to me. Never mind. I came here for dialogue and I find people hurling obsolete polemic at me and my church. Yes, we do have Sunday School classes and nurseries that remain as options for those who would prefer their little ones to be looked after while they attend worship. Forget it. I see what this is and it’s devolved into an attack on my church ( where I shall join my brothers and sisters in Christ tomorrow and partake of the Body and Blood of my Savior, Jesus Christ). I will include you all in my prayers. The Peace of Christ be with you all.

Brother, please don’t go. It’s taken me a few years to get the hang of it, but I’ve learned not to take the polemics personally. Some Catholics simply don’t know any better. That doesn’t mean we need to respond in-kind. Besides, those sorts of Catholics usually don’t last too long here. Remain calm and keep the 8th - you’ll find you’ll outlive the polemicists here. The moderators are good.

 

[steido01]

One fact usually hidden by Lutherans is that Luther kicked a cat and took candy from children on the way to nail up the 95 Theses to the church door.

Interesting dialog here nonetheless!

You got me! I also try to hide the fact that the main source for Catholic scholarship of Luther until the 20th century recorded the incontrovertible facts that Luther was conceived in a bath house tryst between his mother and the devil himself. Shhh!

Good to read you again, James.

 

[rcwitness]

I should say you have summed it up well. “Dialogue” is not something I can say I have actually seen in this forum from the Catholic participants in the way it has been done at all levels in these past decades in the real world, from PCPCU down to the local level…and no real discussion here of where we have arrived, as we mark the 50th anniversary of the Lutheran-Catholic Dialogue.

As for where we have actually arrived…For me, as a priest, I look forward to co-officiating with a Lutheran cleric in a joint ceremony of common prayer soon after the Pope and the President of the Lutheran World Federation inaugurate the world wide commemorations of the 500th anniversary of the Reformation this October 31. The Pope will go to Lund, Sweden, for this historic and momentous occasion…the planning for which began under Pope Benedict years ago.

At the end of the day, what matters is not what individual lay people say on some Internet forum…it is what the Holy Father says and does…and what the Holy See says and does…and where the Catholic Church has arrived on these issues. I rejoice that Catholic bishops across the United States, as in Europe and beyond, will be co-officiating with their Lutheran counterparts at these commemorations to be held at the local and national levels.

Having watched the progress now across these many years, this joint commemoration of the Reformation…and all that is actually going to happen in the midst of it…is a cause for joy and reflection, for both Catholics and Lutherans alike.

The Peace of Christ be also with you.

Here is what lies between the Catholic Church “some” Lutherans. It would be interesting to hear what you would respond to these differences. From this web page: lcms.org/faqs/denominations#catholic

QUESTION: What are the main theological differences between the theology of the Lutheran Church and the Roman Catholic Church?

ANSWER: At the risk of oversimplification, and keeping in mind that individual Lutheran (and Catholic) theologians would undoubtedly disagree about the success of recent Lutheran-Roman Catholic dialogues in lessening or even “resolving” historic doctrinal differences between these two churches, listed below are what the LCMS would regard as some of the major theological differences between the Lutheran Church and the Roman Catholic Church:

1. The authority of Scripture.

Lutherans believe Scripture alone has authority to determine doctrine; the Roman Catholic Church gives this authority also to the pope, the church, and certain traditions of the church.

1. The doctrine of justification.

Lutherans believe a person is saved by God’s grace alone through faith alone in Christ alone. The Roman Catholic Church, while at times using similar language, still officially holds that faith, in order to save, must be accompanied by (or “infused with”) some “work” or “love” active within a Christian.

1. The authority of the pope.

Unlike the Roman Catholic Church, Lutherans do not believe the office of the papacy as such has any divine authority or that Christians need to submit to the Pope’s authority to be “true” members of the visible church.

1. Differences remain about both the number and the nature of the sacraments.

Roman Catholics speak of seven Sacraments while Lutherans tend to speak of only two (or three). More important than number is how the Sacraments are understood.

To take a single example, Lutherans believe that in the Sacrament of the Altar (Communion) Christ’s body and blood are truly present in the bread and wine of the Lord’s Supper, but they do not accept the Roman Catholic doctrine of transubstantiation, which teaches that the elements are permanently changed from the substances of bread and wine to the substances of body and blood.

Transubstantiation is rejected for several reasons: It is a philosophical explanation for a work of Christ’s almighty Word which we can only believe, not explain. In seeking to explain a mystery it changes the plain and simple meanings of God’s Word (Scripture refers to the elements as both bread and wine and body and blood, 1 Cor. 11:26-27).

Transubstantiation leads to the assertion that the body and blood of Christ remain present “even apart from the administration of the Supper” and so encourages veneration of the elements apart from their sacramental use and detracts from the use Christ commands: “Take eat … drink … for the forgiveness of your sins.” Lutheran rejection of transubstantiation should not in any way be taken to mean a denial that Christ’s very body and blood are truly present in the bread and wine of the Lord’s Supper for the forgiveness of sins.

1. Differences remain about the role of Mary and the saints.

Unlike Catholics, Lutherans do not believe it is proper or scriptural to offer prayers to saints or to view Mary as in any sense a “mediator” between God and human beings.

While Lutherans believe any doctrinal error has the potential to distort or deny Scripture’s teaching regarding salvation, we also believe that anyone (regardless of denominational affiliation) who truly believes in Jesus Christ as Savior will be saved.
And here was my attempt at a response: forums.catholic-questions.org/showpost.php?p=14041965&postcount=25

 

[MaryT777]

Are the Confessional Lutherans, LCMS, Wels, etc, even participating in the Commemoration of the Reformation service with Lutherans and Catholics? It was my understanding they are not part of the Lutheran World Federation.

 

[Don_Ruggero]

Here is what lies between the Catholic Church “some” Lutherans. It would be interesting to hear what you would respond to these differences. From this web page: lcms.org/faqs/denominations#catholic

QUESTION: What are the main theological differences between the theology of the Lutheran Church and the Roman Catholic Church?

ANSWER: At the risk of oversimplification, and keeping in mind that individual Lutheran (and Catholic) theologians would undoubtedly disagree about the success of recent Lutheran-Roman Catholic dialogues in lessening or even “resolving” historic doctrinal differences between these two churches, listed below are what the LCMS would regard as some of the major theological differences between the Lutheran Church and the Roman Catholic Church:

1. The authority of Scripture.

Lutherans believe Scripture alone has authority to determine doctrine; the Roman Catholic Church gives this authority also to the pope, the church, and certain traditions of the church.

1. The doctrine of justification.

Lutherans believe a person is saved by God’s grace alone through faith alone in Christ alone. The Roman Catholic Church, while at times using similar language, still officially holds that faith, in order to save, must be accompanied by (or “infused with”) some “work” or “love” active within a Christian.

1. The authority of the pope.

Unlike the Roman Catholic Church, Lutherans do not believe the office of the papacy as such has any divine authority or that Christians need to submit to the Pope’s authority to be “true” members of the visible church.

1. Differences remain about both the number and the nature of the sacraments.

Roman Catholics speak of seven Sacraments while Lutherans tend to speak of only two (or three). More important than number is how the Sacraments are understood.

To take a single example, Lutherans believe that in the Sacrament of the Altar (Communion) Christ’s body and blood are truly present in the bread and wine of the Lord’s Supper, but they do not accept the Roman Catholic doctrine of transubstantiation, which teaches that the elements are permanently changed from the substances of bread and wine to the substances of body and blood.

Transubstantiation is rejected for several reasons: It is a philosophical explanation for a work of Christ’s almighty Word which we can only believe, not explain. In seeking to explain a mystery it changes the plain and simple meanings of God’s Word (Scripture refers to the elements as both bread and wine and body and blood, 1 Cor. 11:26-27).

Transubstantiation leads to the assertion that the body and blood of Christ remain present “even apart from the administration of the Supper” and so encourages veneration of the elements apart from their sacramental use and detracts from the use Christ commands: “Take eat … drink … for the forgiveness of your sins.” Lutheran rejection of transubstantiation should not in any way be taken to mean a denial that Christ’s very body and blood are truly present in the bread and wine of the Lord’s Supper for the forgiveness of sins.

1. Differences remain about the role of Mary and the saints.

Unlike Catholics, Lutherans do not believe it is proper or scriptural to offer prayers to saints or to view Mary as in any sense a “mediator” between God and human beings.

While Lutherans believe any doctrinal error has the potential to distort or deny Scripture’s teaching regarding salvation, we also believe that anyone (regardless of denominational affiliation) who truly believes in Jesus Christ as Savior will be saved.
And here was my attempt at a response: forums.catholic-questions.org/showpost.php?p=14041965&postcount=25

A personal response from me is not needed nor do I offer one…nor would I consider it even remotely proper for me to offer one.

The issues, as such, are concisely addressed in From Conflict to Communion, which is published by the governing dicastery of the Holy See

vatican.va/roman_curia/pontifical_councils/chrstuni/lutheran-fed-docs/rc_pc_chrstuni_doc_2013_dal-conflitto-alla-comunione_en.html

And they are also well addressed under the United States National Conference of Catholic Bishops in Declaration on the Way; the work of the Catholic dialogue in this effort by the Americans was overseen by PCPCU. The resulting product was commended to the dicastery’s Cardinal President.

usccb.org/beliefs-and-teachings/ecumenical-and-interreligious/ecumenical/lutheran/upload/Declaration_on_the_Way-for-Website.pdf

All positions articulated by Catholic individuals should faithfully reflect the positions actually currently held by the Holy See.

In so far as the LCMS has issues and concerns and reservations with participation and results of the international Lutheran-Catholic dialogue, that is an internal issue for the Lutherans and, as a Catholic priest, I in no way speak on matters of internal concern to them.

I hold the Lutheran Church Missouri Synod in the very highest esteem and have across these decades.

 

[steido01]

Are the Confessional Lutherans, LCMS, Wels, etc, even participating in the Commemoration of the Reformation service with Lutherans and Catholics? It was my understanding they are not part of the Lutheran World Federation.

While we look with hope and longing toward the day when Lutherans and Roman Catholics can visibly reunify, no Confessional Luheran church is participating in the Joint Commemoration. Joint worship/commemoration could give the appearance that all differences have been resolved, and Confessional Lutherans strive to avoid even the appearance of Syncretism or Unionism (mostly because of our own persecution in Reformed/Union Prussia). The saddest part is that we’re much closer to Roman Catholicsm than the Liberal Mainlines.

Confessional Lutheranism is still taking part in the Lutheran-Catholic Dialogues, and great progress continues to be made. Matthew Block’s articles on First Things are worth following.

 

[MaryT777]

While we look with hope and longing toward the day when Lutherans and Roman Catholics can visibly reunify, no Confessional Luheran church is participating in the Joint Commemoration. Joint worship/commemoration could give the appearance that all differences have been resolved, and Confessional Lutherans strive to avoid even the appearance of Syncretism or Unionism (mostly because of our own persecution in Reformed/Union Prussia). The saddest part is that we’re much closer to Roman Catholicsm than the Liberal Mainlines.

Confessional Lutheranism is still taking part in the Lutheran-Catholic Dialogues, and great progress continues to be made. Matthew Block’s articles on First Things are worth following.

Thanks Don.

I appreciate the answers. I will check out Matthew Block’s articles.

 

[Shawnq]

This reminds me of the dialogue about if the counsel of Trent was held earlier and Martin Luther attended would he be able to implement changes there. My brief understanding of Luther is that he believed nothing he ever did was ever going to be good enough to get into heaven. So I would have to say if he were alive today he would implement new doctrine to fit the modern era that would be in contrast to catholic teaching.

 

[Wannano]

This reminds me of the dialogue about if the counsel of Trent was held earlier and Martin Luther attended would he be able to implement changes there. My brief understanding of Luther is that he believed nothing he ever did was ever going to be good enough to get into heaven. So I would have to say if he were alive today he would implement new doctrine to fit the modern era that would be in contrast to catholic teaching.

Please correct me if I am misunderstanding you here. From your statement I take your understanding to be that the Catholic Church teaches one can do works that are “good enough to get into heaven.”

Is this the actual stance of the Church?

 

[Peter_J]

Unnecessarily rude. Really. Comparing my church with the Jehovah’s Witnesses was, of course, the height of civility and courtesy. Demeaning my faith, telling me what my motives are and saying what I do and do not believe is, of course, the fairest way to go about talking to me.

I don’t want to delve into those specifics – or even go looking to see what post(s) you’re referring to – but may I say: in my experience such is the way of the internet. Basically a free for all. (That’s one reason that I’m always asking myself “Isn’t there something better I could be doing with my time?”)

 

[Shawnq]

Please correct me if I am misunderstanding you here. From your statement I take your understanding to be that the Catholic Church teaches one can do works that are “good enough to get into heaven.”

Is this the actual stance of the Church?

No it is not. You need faith and works in your life. I believe it’s not good to sit around and pray all day and not minister to the poor and sick and the flip side also holds true.

 

[Peter_J]

Brother, please don’t go. It’s taken me a few years to get the hang of it, but I’ve learned not to take the polemics personally. Some Catholics simply don’t know any better. That doesn’t mean we need to respond in-kind. Besides, those sorts of Catholics usually don’t last too long here. Remain calm and keep the 8th - you’ll find you’ll outlive the polemicists here.

Not meaning any offense, but I believe that Protestant posters bear a lot of responsibility too.

 

[Hatikvah]

Not meaning any offense, but I believe that Protestant posters bear a lot of responsibility too.

Yes, but it all depends on the circumstances. If a Sunni Muslim and a Shiite Muslim get into an argument, then a Catholic poster need not take any responsibility for the argument in itself. As a community, however, we need to help each other out and be respectful. That’s common sense, really.

 

[FollowChrist34]

Agree that this, like most Luther threads, has degenerated into the usual snake pit, both sides have active offenders (though not all of us surely!). Every Christian generation has a right to go through an impassioned “16 century polemicist” stage in their spiritual life. It is great for honing one’s grasp of Christian history, doctrine, creed, not to mention debate skills, with varying degrees of charity. So, I give a pass to newbies on this - as I had my phase of thinking it was not only extremely cool but actually integral to one’s faith to spit the appropriate nails at the appropriate offenders in this whole Catholic v. Lutheran saga. But I am also quite happy to realize I am mellowing out on that “commitment”. Can’t explain why but a good thing. Grace probably - that is no doubt what the Pope and Luther would both say to me. All is well that ends well I guess.