If Macro Evolution is true, Should we let the Sin begin?

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Kalt stop dancing around…

Ok a man has a sex drive where he wants to mate with every attractive woman he see’s. Say Wilt Chamberlin who says he mated with over 10,000 women. Why should he be held accountable for his actions or thoughts if this is part of his evolutionary contruct?

Answer the question dont dance to protect your belief.
Likewise if you and I are both starving and there is but one cake to eat, if I kill you I will have the whole cake to myself. This is quite obvious and I don’t think anyone would argue that I’ve failed logically, but how exactly do the logistics confirm the morality?

As I’ve stated in other threads, science has absolutely no framework to cast moral judgments. You yourself seem to be succumbing to the philosophy of scientism.
 
Evolution explains how we don’t need God , that its a self sustaining principle. we came about through a evolutionary process in which morality would be a simple hinderance. So adultry should be viewed as a good thing perhaps. Adultry can better ensure the survival of our seed. Marriage doesnt make much sense either, or celibacy.why should we ignore the millions and millions of years of evolutionary buildup in our organism should we not embrace it? this is what we are. Our Ancestors are Monkeys. We are Monkeys then in some sense .

please discuss
There is nothing to discuss. Your thesis is indefensible.
 
You people are getting dull…Dont you realize the point…How can you expect man to live up to a christian morality when his very evolution of his formation runs completly against it for his own survival. If Macro Evolution is true shown by ida, then you must give up thinking Adultry is something wrong but rather something for the betterment of your offspring since it gives them better survival chances.
I mean no disrespect, but there is a fundamental problem with your point of view. You insist that evolution equals atheism. With atheism, all those problems you speak about with respect to consequences and morality are valid. But that doesn’t translate to evolution.
 
Im stuck On Ida because it seems to prove Evolution and for me if i accept Evolution I can no longer be a Christian. Macro Evolution that is . I would probably be some sort of Deist.
False dichotomy.

It’s not ‘either evolution or God,’ y’know.

…are you really going to dictate to Him how to create?
 
Listen I dont have some sort of agenda here. Im trying to really understand this question.

Im not saying to accept Evolution means you have to become an atheist. Im saying if you do accept Macro Evolution you need to change your concept of God. You will have to be some sort of deist.

I was at Church alittle while ago and I came to the conclusion that I can’t accept Macro Evolution . If I did I would lose my faith totally and would fall into deism.

Ok once again Im going to explain why I feel if you hold Evolution as a valid explantion of the origins of man, you must rethink your very own morality even if you believe God was directing the Process.

Here’s My Main Points if we believe in Evolution. 1.Christian Morality Can’t be expected to be upheld when are very evolutionary design which was bred into us over a course of millions and millions of years totally contradicts it. You can say it has nothing to do with morality but how can you seperate how man became from what man ought to be? Its like your saying God , messed up in his own design.

Do you all understand when im saying your not being Congruent. What I mean is to me you can’t say Yes man was a single cell organism , transformed in 40,000 other species until he became human through the process of natural selection, survival of the fitess and then just competly ignore evolutionary morality for one that totally contradicts it like christian morality.

My point is you cant seperate how man became, his very origins the process of his origins and then give him a totally different set of rules, a set of morals , a set of behaviors aka Christianity. You can say God was behind this all you want, but then you must question what sort of God he is? Is he really that concerned about us? Evolution is a self sustaining mechanism .

To me the question about how man became , is tied into what man is , what man should be and do… Do you understand my reasoning here?

If our ancestors are Monkeys then we shouldnt have something like marriage. It takes a village…etc
 
Listen I dont have some sort of agenda here. Im trying to really understand this question.

Im not saying to accept Evolution means you have to become an atheist. Im saying if you do accept Macro Evolution you need to change your concept of God. You will have to be some sort of deist.

I was at Church alittle while ago and I came to the conclusion that I can’t accept Macro Evolution . If I did I would lose my faith totally and would fall into deism.

Ok once again Im going to explain why I feel if you hold Evolution as a valid explantion of the origins of man, you must rethink your very own morality even if you believe God was directing the Process.

Here’s My Main Points if we believe in Evolution. 1.Christian Morality Can’t be expected to be upheld when are very evolutionary design which was bred into us over a course of millions and millions of years totally contradicts it. You can say it has nothing to do with morality but how can you seperate how man became from what man ought to be? Its like your saying God , messed up in his own design.

Do you all understand when im saying your not being Congruent. What I mean is to me you can’t say Yes man was a single cell organism , transformed in 40,000 other species until he became human through the process of natural selection, survival of the fitess and then just competly ignore evolutionary morality for one that totally contradicts it like christian morality.

My point is you cant seperate how man became, his very origins the process of his origins and then give him a totally different set of rules, a set of morals , a set of behaviors aka Christianity. You can say God was behind this all you want, but then you must question what sort of God he is? Is he really that concerned about us? Evolution is a self sustaining mechanism .

To me the question about how man became , is tied into what man is , what man should be and do… Do you understand my reasoning here?

If our ancestors are Monkeys then we shouldnt have something like marriage. It takes a village…etc
Of course you can separate man’s origins from what he became. Even the Bible teaches us that man didn’t spring into being as we know him today, but rather was physically formed of the clay of the earth. By your logic, man as a result of his origin as clay should be subject to no moral code, as clay is subject to no moral code. Of course you know this logic doesn’t hold.

Didn’t the real point of differentiation between man and other animals (which also originated from the clay of the earth, by the way) come when God breathed His own breath into Adam, something He didn’t do for any other creature? Not the monkeys, and not Ida?

That certainly didn’t happen right at the very point of creation - Man was still but a lump of clay then. So what if the process of fashioning man’s body out of the clay occurred via an evolutionary process of billions of years rather than taking a shorter time? If God at the end point of that process distinguished man by breathing His own breath into us, the point in time, the point of development of the human race, at which it occurred, matters not in the slightest.
 
Based on your posting history, I’m guessing you prefer to clamp your ears and hum loudly when people tell you that evolution is not an ethical doctrine. We all love to have something to hate, but you have to understand that there are more important things than getting your jollies out of bashing scientists. If you must hate, hate something that’s actually evil, not convenient.
Wow!!! If you are right about no God then I’m ok!!! If your wrong? Well Hell is never ending. ROSE!!! Jesus loves you!! and yes I just talked to Him today and guess what he answered back. He is alive and doing well. Your unbelief don’t change a thing about God.
 
Im stuck On Ida because it seems to prove Evolution and for me if i accept Evolution I can no longer be a Christian. Macro Evolution that is . I would probably be some sort of Deist.
Whoever tells you that Evolution and Christianity are incompatible is lying to you. There are many Christians who also accept evolution: Francis Collins, Keith Miller, Glenn Morton and so on. There are many Catholics who also accept evolution: Ken Miller, three Popes etc.

Genesis says that God made the world. Evolution tells us that God made the world in such a way that it would self-assemble. None of that four hour-hour struggle to put together “self-assembly” furniture for God - with Him the furniture really is self-assembly: it actually assembles itself.

To quote Pope Pius XII:36. For these reasons the Teaching Authority of the Church does not forbid that, in conformity with the present state of human sciences and sacred theology, research and discussions, on the part of men experienced in both fields, take place with regard to the doctrine of evolution, in as far as it inquires into the origin of the human body as coming from pre-existent and living matter - for the Catholic faith obliges us to hold that souls are immediately created by God.

Source: Humani Generis
Evolution and macroevolution speak only of the self-assembly of the human body from pre-existent and living matter. Evolution says nothing of our souls. It cannot because souls do not fossilise and souls are not derived from our DNA. As the pope says, souls are directly created by God.

Our morality comes from our souls, which are direct from God. Evolution merely describes the origins of our physical bodies.

You do not need to give up Christianity if you accept evolution.

rossum
 
Listen I dont have some sort of agenda here. Im trying to really understand this question.

Im not saying to accept Evolution means you have to become an atheist. Im saying if you do accept Macro Evolution you need to change your concept of God. You will have to be some sort of deist.

I was at Church alittle while ago and I came to the conclusion that I can’t accept Macro Evolution . If I did I would lose my faith totally and would fall into deism.

Ok once again Im going to explain why I feel if you hold Evolution as a valid explantion of the origins of man, you must rethink your very own morality even if you believe God was directing the Process.

Here’s My Main Points if we believe in Evolution. 1.Christian Morality Can’t be expected to be upheld when are very evolutionary design which was bred into us over a course of millions and millions of years totally contradicts it. You can say it has nothing to do with morality but how can you seperate how man became from what man ought to be? Its like your saying God , messed up in his own design.

Do you all understand when im saying your not being Congruent. What I mean is to me you can’t say Yes man was a single cell organism , transformed in 40,000 other species until he became human through the process of natural selection, survival of the fitess and then just competly ignore evolutionary morality for one that totally contradicts it like christian morality.

My point is you cant seperate how man became, his very origins the process of his origins and then give him a totally different set of rules, a set of morals , a set of behaviors aka Christianity. You can say God was behind this all you want, but then you must question what sort of God he is? Is he really that concerned about us? Evolution is a self sustaining mechanism .

To me the question about how man became , is tied into what man is , what man should be and do… Do you understand my reasoning here?

If our ancestors are Monkeys then we shouldnt have something like marriage. It takes a village…etc
Why do you think man was a single-celled organism that lived millions of years ago?
 
Kalt stop dancing around…

Ok a man has a sex drive where he wants to mate with every attractive woman he see’s. Say Wilt Chamberlin who says he mated with over 10,000 women. Why should he be held accountable for his actions or thoughts if this is part of his evolutionary contruct?

Answer the question dont dance to protect your belief.
If you learned a little bit about evolution, you wouldn’ t be so nervous.

As it is now, you’re telling others that they’re dancing around a topics that you don’t understand.

From the CCC

“**2351 ***Lust *is disordered desire for or **inordinate **enjoyment of sexual pleasure. Sexual pleasure is morally disordered when sought for itself, isolated from its procreative and unitive purposes.”

Emphasis is mine.
 
Disagree.

I believe in theistic evolution. There’s no contradiction between real science, the fossil record, and religion.

Religion is therapeutic in nature mostly, that’s how I see it. It’s to help us deal with why we are here, why there is evil in the world, how we become better people (or better apes with digital wristwatches- man is both an ape and an angel, that’s my answer to that question asked by some Anglican clergyman more than a while ago). Genesis is not a literal story. “The Fall” was probably way more complex than a snake or a deceiving angel telling a woman it’s OK to eat a fruit. It’s a story used to explain things, it’s a sacred myth. That doesn’t mean, however, it isn’t true. It’s a true myth.
 
We are told that Lust is a Sin, How is this a sin when its an embedded evolutionary Survival Mechanism? How could we be held accountable for something that’s been built in 4 million years or so.
Get a less juridical view of sin and salvation? I know Catholicism is more into this in official Scholasticism, but if you have a more therapeutic understanding of what sin is, what the goal is (theosis, something more like “enlightenment” than standing in front of a judge and having a “yes” or “no” arbitrarily appear next to your name in a book), then it starts to make sense.

C.S. Lewis called religion the “Good Infection”. Perhaps in some ways he was actually more Orthodox than Catholic 🙂
 
😃 Just rackin 'em up aint (s)he?
I think you forgot one: invincible ignorance. (S)he denies scientific evidence for the convenience of his/her faith, and not for its lack of verity (which I doubt it lacks).
 
Wow!!! If you are right about no God then I’m ok!!! If your wrong? Well Hell is never ending. ROSE!!! Jesus loves you!! and yes I just talked to Him today and guess what he answered back. He is alive and doing well. Your unbelief don’t change a thing about God.
Fear not; any emotional statements made by the two of us won’t convince anyone to believe or forfeit belief in the Christian god. Could you will yourself to believe that 2 plus 2 equals 5? Certainly not. You cannot will intellectual knowledge to change.

Did he give you his name? How do you know it wasn’t Allah? Or Odin? Or Vishnu? Your belief would save you from the Christian hell only to send you to another if you’re wrong. And I wouldn’t be so eager to serve a tyrant responsible for eternal punishment. If Jesus loved me, he’d accept me as I am.
 
Did he give you his name? How do you know it wasn’t Allah? Or Odin? Or Vishnu? Your belief would save you from the Christian hell only to send you to another if you’re wrong. And I wouldn’t be so eager to serve a tyrant responsible for eternal punishment. If Jesus loved me, he’d accept me as I am.
.

You are assuming that God is purely arbitrary in his requirements for human beings, this is actually not what Christians believe. Belief doesn’t save - faith does. You are basicly wanting to know “how” salvation works- it changes you. Even then, that’s an approximation but it’s closer than your idea that somehow guessing the right God is going to save some and damn others. People will be judged on what they know, not what they don’t know. It’s not a knowledge based religion.
 
People will be judged on what they know, not what they don’t know.
I see that you hold an opinion that the majority of true Christians would disagree with (and by “true” I mean “follow the tenets of their respective denominations wholly”).
 
Rossum your interpetion made sense to me for about a minute but then I concluded it would lead to a sort of gnostic view point, the soul is good the body is bad.

I ve heard all your replys and I simply disagree , I don’t believe Macro Evolution fits with Christianity at all. I do accept Micro Evolution. To me this acceptance of Macro Evolution is more about any answer then no answer.
 
Listen I dont have some sort of agenda here. Im trying to really understand this question.
How many more ways do you need it expalined?
Im not saying to accept Evolution means you have to become an atheist. Im saying if you do accept Macro Evolution you need to change your concept of God. You will have to be some sort of deist.
Yes, you are saying that evolution= atheism and, no, you do not need to change your concept of God to accept evolution. You can accept that evolution is part of how God works and that he is behind all of the factors and choices that lead to selection.
Here’s My Main Points if we believe in Evolution. 1.Christian Morality Can’t be expected to be upheld when are very evolutionary design which was bred into us over a course of millions and millions of years totally contradicts it. You can say it has nothing to do with morality but how can you seperate how man became from what man ought to be? Its like your saying God , messed up in his own design.
Do you all understand when im saying your not being Congruent. What I mean is to me you can’t say Yes man was a single cell organism , transformed in 40,000 other species until he became human through the process of natural selection, survival of the fitess and then just competly ignore evolutionary morality for one that totally contradicts it like christian morality.
The greatest gift that God ever gave man was the ability to rise above himself, to be more than just a complex structure of water and carbon. To not use that ability would be a failing of man, not of God. Yes, it is harder this way, but with things this important, you can’t always take the easy way out.
To me the question about how man became , is tied into what man is , what man should be and do… Do you understand my reasoning here?
He should be a creature in God’s image.
If our ancestors are Monkeys then we shouldnt have something like marriage. It takes a village…etc
Let me go back to my previous example of the woman with five children by five different fathers. Let’s say that they’re all neoliths from a time before marriage. Now, this woman will have to feed, protect and teach skills to her five children. Will any of the men show up and help? Likely not. They wouldn’t want to devote their time and energy helping children that aren’t theirs (as four of the children are to each man), so the woman is left to look after them on their own. The children will have less food, be more likely to be eaten by a tiger and will not receive as much attention.
Let’s say that in this same neolithic area, there is a monogamous pair. They don’t spend their time being promiscuous, so they only have two or three children. Still, because there are now two parents invested in the children, it is now easier to get food, protect the family and give each child attention to help them grow up.
Who’s children are more fit. The first woman my have more children, but the second woman’s children have a better chance at survival. That’s what evolution is about; who survives and who doesn’t.

I’d also like to point out that you are assuming that no other species mates for life and it is therefore unnatural. Penguins, for example, mate for life and so do swans.
 
Rossum your interpetion made sense to me for about a minute but then I concluded it would lead to a sort of gnostic view point, the soul is good the body is bad.
It was not my interpretation, it came from Humani Generis, which I quoted. If you have a problem with it then I suggest that you take it up with the Vatican.

rossum
 
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