If Mary was born without original sin, why then did Jesus say?

[Giver]

MrS:

Your post struck me two ways…
1} extremely honest… thank you
2} extremely common… we have our work cut out for us… “…but the laborers are few”

I think the Catholic Church needs to repent and go back to the Word of God, so it can again walk in the powers of the Holy Spirit.

(1 Corinthians 4:19-21) “but I will be visiting you soon, the Lord willing, and then I shall want to know not what these self-important people have to say, but what they can do, since the kingdom of God is not just words, it is power. It is for you to decide: do I come with a stick in my hand or in a spirit of love and goodwill?

If the Catholics Bishops were the successors of the apostles would they have not come to the priest, as Paul said he would have come, who committed all those evil deeds? What power are the Catholics Bishops walking in?

(1 Corinthians 5:11) “What I wrote was that you should not associate with a brother Christian who is leading an immoral life, or is a usurer, or idolatrous, or a slanderer, or a drunkard or is dishonest; you should not even eat a meal with people like that.”

Were not the Bishops and priest eating with these evil priest?
Giver

 

[Della]

jimmy:

Although I agree with what you say, it certainly is possible that John was concieved without Original Sin. He is atleast sanctified from the womb, which does not disqualify it being all the way back to his conception. It is certainly possible that God sanctified others other than Mary at conception.

Although it is possible because God can do whatever he pleases to accomplish his will, it wasn’t necessary that John be conceived wtihout original sin as it was for Mary–the operative words being “to accomplish his will.” This is why the Church does not teach that John was conceived without original sin.

 

[Della]

Giver:

I think the Catholic Church needs to repent and go back to the Word of God, so it can again walk in the powers of the Holy Spirit.

(1 Corinthians 4:19-21) “but I will be visiting you soon, the Lord willing, and then I shall want to know not what these self-important people have to say, but what they can do, since the kingdom of God is not just words, it is power. It is for you to decide: do I come with a stick in my hand or in a spirit of love and goodwill?

If the Catholics Bishops were the successors of the apostles would they have not come to the priest, as Paul said he would have come, who committed all those evil deeds? What power are the Catholics Bishops walking in?

(1 Corinthians 5:11) “What I wrote was that you should not associate with a brother Christian who is leading an immoral life, or is a usurer, or idolatrous, or a slanderer, or a drunkard or is dishonest; you should not even eat a meal with people like that.”

Were not the Bishops and priest eating with these evil priest?
Giver

So, there are no Protestant ministers who have ever grievously sinned? And, Protestant ministers who have sinned grievously ought to be shunned by their fellow ministers instead of corrected and helped? You are applying a standard to individual Catholic bishops that you are not applying to Protestants bishops and ministers. Besides, the Church has never claimed impeccability for its priests and bishops. You plainly misunderstand the nature of the Church which is both human and divine. In its humanity its ministers are sinners just like everyone else. In its divinity, as the Body of Christ, it cannot err in matters of faith and morals because Christ is its head who cannot contradict himself.

As to “getting back the word of God,” the Church has the word of God given to it by Christ himself passed on to the Apostles and their successors. The Bible is a part of that body of teaching, which is called Sacred Tradition. The Bible is embedded in the Church not the other way around.

 

[MrS]

and…

The Bible is the Book of the Catholic Church.

All others only “claim” to be the Church of the book. (which can only truthfully be the Catholic Book)

 

[Giver]

thistle:

On earth Jesus raised people from the dead. Once in Heaven why is so hard to believe he wouldn’t do more for his mother and take her up body and soul to be with him?

CCC 966 "Finally the Immaculate Virgin, preserved free from all stain of original sin, when the course of her earthly life was finished, was taken up body and soul into heavenly glory, and exalted by the Lord as Queen over all things, so that she might be the more fully conformed to her Son, the Lord of lords and conqueror of sin and death."508 The Assumption of the Blessed Virgin is a singular participation in her Son’s Resurrection and an anticipation of the resurrection of other Christians:

In giving birth you kept your virginity; in your Dormition you did not leave the world, O Mother of God, but were joined to the source of Life. You conceived the living God and, by your prayers, will deliver our souls from death.509

(Matthew 12:48-50) “Who is my mother? Who are my brothers? And stretching out his hand towards his disciples he said, ‘Here are my mother and my brothers. Anyone who does the will of may Father in heaven, he is my brother and sister and mother.”

Jesus equated the disciples who did the will of His Father with His mother, then if she was assumed into heaven why weren’t the disciples?
Giver

 

[MrS]

(Matthew 12:48-50) “Who is my mother? Who are my brothers? And stretching out his hand towards his disciples he said, ‘Here are my mother and my brothers. Anyone who does the will of may Father in heaven, he is my brother and sister and mother.”

Jesus equated the disciples who did the will of His Father with His mother, then if she was assumed into heaven why weren’t the disciples?
Giver

they had to suffer the effects of original sin… she did not. Jesus is her Savior too… but he Saved her before her conception… and her alone. Only Mary is Full of Grace - in the Greek, a perfect past participle. The learned St Luke did not get it wrong, thanks to the Holy Spirit, She was always and will be always, singulary Blessed.

 

[David_Zampino]

javelin:

Quite true. My bad. Does that impact this discussion?

Is that your only reaction to all the posts here in response to your original question?

Peace,
javelin

I have the same question for “Giver”.

Blessings,

 

[David_Zampino]

Giver:

I think the Catholic Church needs to repent and go back to the Word of God, so it can again walk in the powers of the Holy Spirit.

(1 Corinthians 4:19-21) “but I will be visiting you soon, the Lord willing, and then I shall want to know not what these self-important people have to say, but what they can do, since the kingdom of God is not just words, it is power. It is for you to decide: do I come with a stick in my hand or in a spirit of love and goodwill?

If the Catholics Bishops were the successors of the apostles would they have not come to the priest, as Paul said he would have come, who committed all those evil deeds? What power are the Catholics Bishops walking in?

(1 Corinthians 5:11) “What I wrote was that you should not associate with a brother Christian who is leading an immoral life, or is a usurer, or idolatrous, or a slanderer, or a drunkard or is dishonest; you should not even eat a meal with people like that.”

Were not the Bishops and priest eating with these evil priest?
Giver

This has nothing to do with your original question. Are you honestly seeking dialogue? Or are you jumping into every thread you can find with your proof-texting?

I’m calling you on this, and I will continue to do so.

Blessings,

 

[David_Zampino]

(Matthew 12:48-50) “Who is my mother? Who are my brothers? And stretching out his hand towards his disciples he said, ‘Here are my mother and my brothers. Anyone who does the will of may Father in heaven, he is my brother and sister and mother.”

Jesus equated the disciples who did the will of His Father with His mother, then if she was assumed into heaven why weren’t the disciples?
Giver

Again, what has this got to do with your original question?

 

[javelin]

(Matthew 12:48-50) “Who is my mother? Who are my brothers? And stretching out his hand towards his disciples he said, ‘Here are my mother and my brothers. Anyone who does the will of may Father in heaven, he is my brother and sister and mother.”

Jesus equated the disciples who did the will of His Father with His mother, then if she was assumed into heaven why weren’t the disciples?
Giver

Giver,

A little friendly advice if you are** truly seeking answers **and not just trying to provide your own answers to all us lost souls.

1. Stick to the topic of the thread. I will admit some of our own stuff has pulled us off a bit, and if that is the case with me, I apologize.
2. If other questions come up (like Mary’s Assumption), start a new thread on them.
3. But first, read and respond to people who try to help answer your questions. I say this first because much theology is built upon other theology, and to move to a new discussion without coming to an understanding in this one could be trying to build the roof before the foundation is laid.

Peace,
javelin

 

[javelin]

(1 Corinthians 5:11) “What I wrote was that you should not associate with a brother Christian who is leading an immoral life, or is a usurer, or idolatrous, or a slanderer, or a drunkard or is dishonest; you should not even eat a meal with people like that.”

By the way, this verse does not mean that we should not associate with people who sin, but that we should avoid those who profess belief while persisting to sin. Even a few transgressions do not constitute “leading an immoral life”. Each of these descriptions by the evangelist indicates an ongoing state, not a one-time offense. For example, being drunk a few times does not realistically make one a “drunkard”, for that is someone who is constantly drunk. If a professed believer defiantly persists in sin, when it is clear that it has been made known to them and they have the ability to stop, then there is a serious problem that should be addressed, no question.

Peace,
javelin

 

[Giver]

javelin:

Quite true. My bad. Does that impact this discussion?

Is that your only reaction to all the posts here in response to your original question?

Peace,
javelin

I am not responding, because I have no personal insight into the question. Just wondering about why the Church believes what it does about Mary. What proof does the Church have to back up its belief?
Giver

 

[jimmy]

Della:

Although it is possible because God can do whatever he pleases to accomplish his will, it wasn’t necessary that John be conceived wtihout original sin as it was for Mary–the operative words being “to accomplish his will.” This is why the Church does not teach that John was conceived without original sin.

I completely agree, but I think it is within the bounds of belief. They do teach that he was born free from OS. It is taught that John has a special place. He is the greatest human behind Mary.

 

[MrS]

Giver:

I am not responding, because I have no personal insight into the question. Just wondering about why the Church believes what it does about Mary. What proof does the Church have to back up its belief?
Giver

what proof, other than the Church’s interpretion of Scripture do you need.

I believe this about your disbelief :

It is not grounded in being closed to what scripture says, but rather your disbelief comes from not recognizing or accepting the authority (God-given) of the Catholic Church. Such authority is not given to any other man-founded church or denomination. Nor can it be assumed by any individual.

 

[Giver]

MrS:

what proof, other than the Church’s interpretion of Scripture do you need.

I believe this about your disbelief :

It is not grounded in being closed to what scripture says, but rather your disbelief comes from not recognizing or accepting the authority (God-given) of the Catholic Church. Such authority is not given to any other man-founded church or denomination. Nor can it be assumed by any individual.

You have a right to your belief. I do wonder why you believe what you believe about the Catholic Church.

 

[MrS]

Giver:

You have a right to your belief. I do wonder why you believe what you believe about the Catholic Church.

maybe because I am, like you said earlier, spirit-filled

 

[jimmy]

Giver:

You have a right to your belief. I do wonder why you believe what you believe about the Catholic Church.

He believes it because he can trace the authority of the Catholic Church back to the apostles.

 

[Giver]

MrS:

maybe because I am, like you said earlier, spirit-filled

You don’t sound to sure.

 

[Fergal]

The original latin quote reads **
28** Dico enim vobis : major inter natos mulierum propheta Joanne Baptista nemo est : qui autem minor est in regno Dei, major est illo.

28 For I say to you: Amongst those that are born of women, there is not a greater prophet that John the Baptist. But he that is the lesser in the kingdom of God, is greater than he.

that makes perfect sense to me. No greater prophet was ever born of woman.

With so many departures from the original scriptures, is it any wonder we are so confused??

Check the latin vulgate for a precise translation vulsearch.sourceforge.net/

 

[Strider]

javelin:

The following quote is from another thread. Hurst is just great with his Scripture references! I hope he doesn’t mind this being copied here…

He said that it was possible that John the Baptist and other prophets were also immaculately conceived (although I don’t believe it is dogma). The response below was to someone asking if that claim was scriptural:

So, if John the Baptist was also immaculately conceived, then Mary’s Immaculate Conception does not by necessity make her “greater” than John. I’m not saying that she’s not greater than John, though, just that her I.C. does not make her so.

Peace,
javelin

John the Baptist was not immaculately conceived. He was “Baptized,” i.e., original sin was removed in the presence of our Lord when he “Leapt in Elizabeth’s womb.” He was born without original sin.