If Mary was the mother of God...

[Filioque]

Quoting you: “Why limit the answer to “yes/no”?” But to answer your question: No.Was the divine nature of Christ “conceived?” Did it come into being? By the incarnation was it (His divine nature) transformed into a Childlike mentality, that of an infant? Did Mary nurture that divine nature from infancy to adulthood? Did the divine nature of Christ increase in wisdom and stature? Was the divine nature of Christ dependent on a woman (and let’s not forget Joseph). IOW, with the incarnation did the human become divine and the divine human? Do you like Eutyches and Cyril lay stress on the divine in Christ? That after the incarnation the human nature was assimilated, deified by the personal Logos? That the body of Jesus was actually a divine body? That it may be said that God was born, God suffered, God was crucified and died?

The Sacred Scriptures tell us that He (Jesus) was Subject to them, (Joseph and Mary) (Luke 2:51) Now it is also true that a verse or two prior Jesus asked them if they did not know that He should be about His Father’s business.

What we can clearly see here is that Jesus, True God and True Man, (not a 50/50 split) but rather one Jesus shows us both His place in the Universe, as Teacher and God, but that knowing that He subjected Himself to Mary and His Foster Father. Now unless you are going to buy the silly story of the “Gospel” of Thomas, you have to admit here, and in next verse, where we read, “And Jesus increased in wisdom and stature, and in favour with God and man.” that while he was 100% God and had (as we see Satan trying to tempt him later) all power as God, He humbled himself to be born of a woman, and to be subject to Her. The Scriptures do not hedge on this point.

As Catholics we must agree with the Scriptures of Mary’s special place in salvation history, and while the Scriptures are clear that she does have that place, it is not a position of superiority to her Son, as she is human, but one of cooperation with His own plan to bring salvation to the world.

 

[Filioque]

The first part of the question was, "what would a Catholic ever consider “excessive” Marian devotion? Since you answered “yes,” could you give some documented examples and why you would consider them excessive?

There are any number of examples, the problem with supplying a list is that they are not Catholic practices, but rather practices that have been condemned by the Church.

The Rosary, (when recited properly) and any approved Devotion to our Lady or the angels and Saints are all within the confines of what the Apostles and Early Church taught, and practiced under the guidance of the Holy Ghost, and based on the Instruction by Jesus to the Apostles. They can however be misused and abused.

I’ve heard Catholics and Non-Catholics alike who are ignorant of authentic and approved Marian and other devotions condemn them as being excessive, or that they should be abolished because they can lead to abuse. However it does not follow that we should ignore or remove a devotion because some would not use it properly. That same logic could be applied to not allowing cars to be built because some people drink and drive cars. Or banning the Bible because there have been those like the Jehovah’s Witnesses or Mormons (among thousands of others) who have interpreted it incorrectly. So too the title Mother of God, or the Greek Theotokos. Should we deny a truth because someone will potentially misinterpret or mis-represent it? As you like to ask Yes or No questions, please answer yes or no?

As to Excessive devotions, as I don’t want to endorse one or another website, do a search for Unapproved Marian Devotions. You will be able to find hundreds of alleged apparitions, and devotions that the Church has condemned as excessive. Find a copy of the Raccolta, and you will see not only prayers that you may personally not like, but there you will find the appropriate use of a devotion, be it worship of God, or honoring our Lady, the Angels or the Saints.

 

[Filioque]

First of all, we PRAY the Rosary, we don’t normally CHANT it.

Secondly - I absolutely do not agree. For one the Mass is the primary prayer of the Church - said every day by every priest, and usually more than once on Sundays. And the prayer of the Mass is entirely Trinitarian in its emphasis.

Many of the very same Catholics who pray the Rosary frequently also attend Daily Mass. Personally I know I’m about 50/50 in terms of praying the Rosary and attending Mass.

Thirdly - I’d say the Sign of the Cross and/or Glory Be (doxology) trump everything in terms of frequency, being that one or other is said before, during and/after most other prayers, including the Rosary and the Mass.

All I’d add is that the Office is also prayed as the Official Prayer of the Church on a daily basis by Clergy, and Religious, as well as by many of the laity. The Office is filled with worship of God, and primarily composed of the Sacred Scriptures (as is the Mass).

While our Lady the Angels and Saints are honored as creatures of God who are examples of great spiritual lives, in the Mass and Office, they like mirrors or jewels reflect the Glory of God rather than produce it of themselves.

 

[jonnyws]

I think the poet Dante en-captured the circularity and complexity of the relationship between the Christ God and the Virgin perfectly in his Paradiso:
*
O virgin mother, daughter of thy Son,
humble beyond all creatures and more exalted;
predestined turning point of God’s intention*

If anyone is interested in unpacking this further I have recently written a short essay on this I’d be happy to email to you. Just send me a PM

 

[Rumpelstiltskin]

This is obsurd and you know it ! Rumpel. Does anyone ever ask you to pray for them, and when they do,do you tell them you cannot mediate for them.

Peace

And you’re justifying to show why you should go to the neighbor and not to the man himself?

Great again…isn’t it?

PS. Simply, anything, whatever, just as long as you don’t go to Jesus directly (even though He clearly asked us to go through Him). That’s really what you’re trying to tell us here. . You are indirectly just saying this “STAY AWAY FROM JESUS!”

 

[Tantum_ergo]

And you’re justifying to show why you should go to the neighbor and not to the man himself?

Great again…isn’t it?

PS. Simply, anything, whatever, just as long as you don’t go to Jesus directly (even though He clearly asked us to go through Him). That’s really what you’re trying to tell us here. . You are indirectly just saying this “STAY AWAY FROM JESUS!”

When you ask a person (your neighbor) to pray with you, are you bypassing Jesus by not going ‘directly’ to Jesus but asking your neighbor to come along?

I don’t think so.

We don’t pray to Mary and the saints 'instead of" Jesus so we are praying directly to Him.

We just have a lot more people praying with us. Where two or three are gathered in His name, ya know??

 

[Rumpelstiltskin]

When you ask a person (your neighbor) to pray with you, are you bypassing Jesus by not going ‘directly’ to Jesus but asking your neighbor to come along?

I don’t think so.

We don’t pray to Mary and the saints 'instead of" Jesus so we are praying directly to Him.

We just have a lot more people praying with us. Where two or three are gathered in His name, ya know??

Okay, now you’re saying the person is not praying for you, but praying WITH you. Interesting.

I don’t think Jesus would bother who you bring along with you when you pray to Him. Ultimately, He just wants to deal with each of you personally as an individual. You can bring others along if you’re afraid…but I am sure these others also have answering to do when they face Jesus individually.

What comes to mind is a student who is going to see his/her principal and then asking his/her friends to come along. Its really nice, really… but its not going to help. The principal deals with you as he/she deems fit. Not how many friends you have. You’re not the mafia, and even if you are…you can do nothing when you stand for judgement with God on the throne.

The point is, Go to Jesus…directly…and alone. His Love For You Will Overcome All.

.

 

[CWBetts]

And you’re justifying to show why you should go to the neighbor and not to the man himself?

Great again…isn’t it?

PS. Simply, anything, whatever, just as long as you don’t go to Jesus directly (even though He clearly asked us to go through Him). That’s really what you’re trying to tell us here. . You are indirectly just saying this “STAY AWAY FROM JESUS!”

Nothing could be further from the truth. Marian intercession is the fulfillment of an Old Testament type found in 1 Kings 2, when Adonijah asks Bath-Sheba (the Queen Mother) to intercede on his behalf with King Solomon (a type of Christ on many levels). Furthermore, we see actual Marian veneration when Mary visits Elizabeth. We know that Elizabeth is older because she was beyond child-bearing years (Luke 1:18). We laso know that Mary is a young woman by virtue of the prophesy of Isaiah 7:14. The literal Hebrew is almah, meaning “young woman” but carries the connotation of virginity. Also we must remember that Joseph knew that he wasn’t the father (Matthew 1:18). Also to take into consideration is that Elizabeth had a higher social standing by virtue of the fact that Mary was betrothed to a carpenter, and Elizabeth was married to a priest (Luke 1:5). To summarize we know this information about the relationship between Mary and Elizabeth:

• Mary was younger
• Mary had a lower social standing due to her betrothed
• It was assumed that Mary’s pregnacy was from immorality

Taken together, when Mary visited Elizabeth, it would have been expected that Mary help her older relative during her pregnancy, and a stern lecture from Elizabeth would not have been out of the ordinary. But that is not what happened. Elizabeth greets Mary with a phrase that is used in the Hail Mary: “Blessed are you among women and blessed is the fruit of your womb” Even more, the next thing said by Elizabeth is “And why is this granted me, that the mother of my Lord should come to me” (Luke 1:42-43) This kind of language is not what would be expected in a society that is socially stratified. Your charge that there is nothing Biblical about Marian devotion is obviously groundless.