If Mary was the mother of God...

[placido]

This was in the context of “mother of God,” which is not in the Bible.

Be consistent please. The word “bible” is not in the Bible yet you don’t reject it.

No, they couldn’t say that “Biblically” because it’s in the Bible that Christ’s divinity is clearly revealed:

Clearly revealed? You are joking! There are many people who read the same Bible you read yet they don’t see Christ’s divinity. Why?

“…and the Word was God…and the Word became flesh and dwelt among us.” We don’t need Mary for this wonderful revelation.

That being the case, we don’t need you either … or is the Bible not enough without your assistence?

It’s unfortunate that men did try to explain His deity through her (“theotokos”), all they needed to do was appeal to the Scriptures.

Where does Scripture say that? … Chapter and verse please!

placido

 

[placido]

And Jesus says “NO MAN GOES TO THE FATHER EXCEPT THROUGH ME”.

And you go to Mary? That’s just great, isn’t it??? . Someone tells you to go to him and you go to his neighbor’s house. Interesting.

PS… Those who belongs to God calls Him through the spirit, Abba Father! Once a son always a son. The servant has no place in the house. John 8:35 Now a slave has no permanent place in the family, but a son belongs to it forever..

By his own admission then, St. Louis De Montfort is quite obviously a slave and no son of God.

Some people come here making pretences, but we know better. All those claiming to go straight to Jesus do go to their pastors, their elders and member of their families asking for their prayers. But when we do the same they jump and say “no”, just go straight to Jesus.
No catholic goes to Mary INSTEAD of Jesus. We go to Mary, to the priest, fellow believers to pray for us. And that is not all: we ourselves keep praying directly to Jesus.

placido

 

[GaryTaylor]

You need to actually “read” scripture. Read LUKE.

Luke…

1:26 -And in the 6th month the angel Gabriel was sent “from GOD” to a city in Galilee named Nazareth.

1:27- To a Virgin espoused to a man whose name was Joseph, and the Virgins name was MARY.

1:28-And the Angel came in unto her, and said, HAIL, thou that are “HIGHLY FAVOURED” , the LORD is with thee: “Blessed ART THOU AMONG WOMEN” [BTW- This is also where the Prayer Hail Mary originates].

1:30-And the Angel said unto her, Fear Not MARY, for thou has found favor with GOD"

1:31- And, behold, thou shall conceive in thy womb, and bring forth a Son, and shall call his name JESUS.

1:32-He shall be GREAT, and shall be called the Son of the Highest: and the Lord GOD shall give unto him the throne of his father David:

1:33-And he shall reign over the house of Jacob forever; and of his Kingdom there shall be NO END.

1:34- Mary said to the Angel, How shall this be, seeing I know NOT a MAN?

1-35- And the Angel answered and said unto her, The HOLY GHOST shall come upon thee, and the Power of the Highest shall overshadow thee: therefore also “the HOLY which shall born of thee”, shall be called “the SON OF GOD”.

1-37- For with GOD NOTHING is IMPOSSIBLE

1-41- And it came to pass, that, Eliabeth heard " the salutation of Mary", the babe leaped in her Womb, and Elizabeth was filled with the Holy Ghost.

1-42 Eliazabeth spoke with a loud voice { remember now she’s filled with the Holy Ghost} BLESSED ART THIOU AMONG WOMEN, AND BLESSED IS THE FRUIT OF THY WOMB {and the Prayer Hail-Mary and she’s BLESSED and her child Jesus is BLESSED}

1-46 And Mary said “MY SOUL MAGNIFYS THE LORD”

1-47- And my Spirit has rejoiced in God my Saviour.

LUKE

2-11 For unto you is born a “SAVIOUR which is CHRIST the LORD”

2-13- And suddenly there was with an Angel a mulitude of the Heavenly Host praising GOD and saying ,

2-14- Glory to God in the Highest, and on Earth Peace, and Good will towards Men.

And the chapter go’s on with John the Baptist claiming the one I Baptise will be greater and than me. And another Mystery of Faith with Jesus being left at the Temple by Mary and Joseph, And when they returned Jesus is speaking to the Teachers and the Elect and they amazed at the Boys understanding and Intellect.

Summary. Mary is the Mother of the Lord Jesus Christ. Jeusu Christ is the Trinity which “IS GOD”. Maryt has GREAT FAVOR with GOD. And if read the Wedding of CANA its eveident JESUS/GOD cannot refure MARY anything she asks of him. THus we have MARY the Co REDEEMER of mankind through the Trinity.

SO LETS TALK about LUKE? What is not understood? Mary is the MOTHER of JESUS. Jesus is the SON of GOD. This is the TRINITY. Of all ANGELS even they refer to her as HAIL MARY, THE LORD IS WITH THEE, BLESSED IS THE FRUIT of thy WOMB, JESUS. Mary has be given FAVOR by GOD.

How much clearer can this possible be? Think about this. And this is just LUKE.

How one comes to the conclusion

{RUMPELSTILTSKIN- MARY IS NOT THE MOTHER OF GOD} {in your exact words}

WELL THEN, read the above…LUKE

Read the above and respond please? Whats the thinking with YOU? Can LUKE be any cleared. Let alone Mark, Luke and Matthew which give us the Transfiguration?

Two things happen on this post, 1} Total denial of Scripture. 2} Scripture wrongly interpreted.

 

[placido]

Here’s where he lacked faith: “But Alas ! I have not fullfilled my obligations; I do not deserve to be called Your Child nor Thy slave.” He had no faith, no confidence in what Christ did for him, once for all.

I think you are being unfair and you know that. You can not judge a person who died at the age of 43 based only on one of his prayers. I think it would be fair to review all his other prayers to get a clearer picture of whether he had or had no confidence in what Christ did for him. I think one can “accuse” St. Louis De Montfort of “excessive” Marian devotion, but to accuse him of lacking confidence in Christ si a bit unfair.

placido

 

[moondweller]

This is dead wrong.

St. Louis was merely, (and correctly) stating something that Our Lord says in the New Testament in Luke 17:6] And the Lord said, “If you had faith as a grain of mustard seed, you could say to this sycamine tree, Be rooted up, and be planted in the sea,' and it would obey you. **7**] "Will any one of you, who has a servant plowing or keeping sheep, say to him when he has come in from the field, Come at once and sit down at table’?
8] Will he not rather say to him, Prepare supper for me, and gird yourself and serve me, till I eat and drink; and afterward you shall eat and drink'? **9**] Does he thank the servant because he did what was commanded? **10**] So you also, when you have done all that is commanded you, say, We are unworthy servants; we have only done what was our duty.’”

No, St. Louis explicitly states that he has not fulfilled his obligations so he appeals to Mary to be his advocate."Though I promised in my baptism to renounce satan his pomps and works and give myself entirely to You.But Alas ! I have not fullfilled my obligations; I do not deserve to be called Your Child nor Thy slave. Since you came to humanity through Mary ! So I will approach Your most august majesty, through Your Mother."Scripture says we have one Advocate (Paracletos) in heaven and that’s the Man Christ Jesus (1Jn. 1:1).

The slave in Luke 17:7ff, after he had fulfilled all his obligations, knows he has only done what he was (as a slave) suppose to do. He cannot boast in his work or expect special treatment. This is the right attitude in respect to works.

However, St. Louis says he does not deserve to be called the Lord’s child because he has not fulfilled what he thought were his “obligations.” So he appeals to Mary. But the believer’s relationship to God is not at all based on works, but on grace (unmerited,unrecompensed, undeserved, favor). And being called God’s child, God’s son, is an undeserved favor (grace) bestowed on him through faith in the “finished” work of His beloved Son, Jesus Christ (Jn. 1:12; cf. Gal. 4;1-6).

Here’s the contrast: St. Louis approaches God through Mary as a slave who has not fulfilled his obligations. Whereas the true believer in Christ approaches the throne of God directly as God’s child, as one adopted into the household of God, according to God’s grace, through faith.

The contrasting difference here is faith vs. works, grace vs. law.

 

[AwGusTeen]

Mindful?..We have to be mindful when we say someone gave birth to Divinity. That statement is itself un-mindful of what and who God is.

Did Mary give birth to Divinity? Yes or No?

If yes, then that’s saying she is the mother of God, and that makes her GREATER than God…and that is blasphemy.

If no, then that’s saying she is not the mother of God because God is divinity.

Its as simple as that. We’re going around in circles because there has been no ability to put up substantial argument for except quoting and re-quoting a phrase made by Elizabeth whose exact words do not imply Mary is the MOTHER of the CREATOR, but that she was the mother of the Lord who came in the form of humanity.

Did Mary create Jesus’ soul? No - no more than your mother created yours, yet, she is still your mother. The mother is where God in his infinite wisdom has chosen to join the spirit and the body together - it’s not some cold incubation chamber where the body alone grows for nine months.

Now, I don’t think anyone here is saying that Mary existed prior to Jesus as Jesus the Son has always existed. However, this appears to be your metric of proof in order to classify Mary as the Mother of God. Mary is a creature just like you and I. Yet, she was chosen by God and accepted the honor from God to give birth to our Savior. That’s a very important role in the salvation story. This doesn’t sound like God considered Mary to be a mere vessel.

As Catholics, we believe that the soul is infused at the moment of conception. Thus when Jesus was conceived by the Holy Spirit, he was immediately in-souled into Mary. Therefore, when she gave birth to Him, she gave birth to the complete Jesus - not only to some physical shell to which God the Son was later added. This is why you are logically forced to either deny the Hypostatic Union, or to deny that Jesus’ soul was present at any time up to the moment of birth. Both positions, from the Christian standpoint, are untenable.

If you accept either (or both) of these, then you must necessarily concede that Mary IS the Mother of God!

Pax!

 

[jlhargus]

Jesus created or “gave birth” to Mary.

John 1:3 All things came into being through Him, and apart from Him nothing came into being that has come into being.

Romans 11:36 For from Him and through Him and to Him are all things. To Him be the glory forever. Amen.

Colossians 1:16 For by Him all things were created, both in the heavens and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or rulers or authorities-- all things have been created through Him and for Him.

JL: Yes he certainly did, and Mary gave birth to the WORD MADE FLESH and the Word WAS GOD BECOME MAN.

 

[placido]

Resolved: Mary is Mother of God. That is what Scripture says. That is what the Church taught, teaches and will always teach. To say otherwise is either to deny Christ’s divinity or to deny that Mary is His mother … wrong both ways.
Now, as to St. Louis De Montfort, I think he deserves a fair hearing.
Here is his “Prayer to eternal Wisdom”:

“Divine Wisdom, Lord of heaven and earth, I humbly beg pardon for my audacity in attempting to speak of your perfections, ignorant and sinful as I am. I beg you not to consider the darkness of my mind or the uncleanness of my lips unless it be to take them away with a glance of your eyes and a breath of your mouth. There is in you so much beauty and delight; you have shielded me from so many evils and showered on me so many favours, and you are moreover so little known and so much slighted. How can I remain silent? Not only justice and gratitude, but my own interests urge me to speak about you, even though it be so imperfectly. It is true, I can only lisp like a child, but then I am only a child, anxious to learn how to speak properly through my lisping, once I have attained the fullness of your age (cf. Eph. 4:13).
I know there seems to be neither order nor sense in what I write, but because I long so dearly to possess you, I am looking for you everywhere, like Solomon, wandering in all directions (Wisd. 8:18). If I am striving to make you known in this world, it is because you yourself have promised that all who explain you and make you known will have eternal life (cf. Sir. 8:18). Accept, then, my loving Lord, these humble words of mine as though they were a masterly discourse. Look upon the strokes of my pen as so many steps to find you and from your throne above bestow your blessings and your enlightenment on what I mean to say about you, so that those who read it may be filled with a fresh desire to love you and possess you, on earth as well as in heaven.”
A beautiful prayer indeed.

placido

 

[Soldier_X]

Mindful?..We have to be mindful when we say someone gave birth to Divinity. That statement is itself un-mindful of what and who God is.

Did Mary give birth to Divinity? Yes or No?

If yes, then that’s saying she is the mother of God, and that makes her GREATER than God…and that is blasphemy.

If no, then that’s saying she is not the mother of God because God is divinity.

Its as simple as that. We’re going around in circles because there has been no ability to put up substantial argument for except quoting and re-quoting a phrase made by Elizabeth whose exact words do not imply Mary is the MOTHER of the CREATOR, but that she was the mother of the Lord who came in the form of humanity.

On the contrary, there have been quite a few substantial arguments. And Mary as the Mother of God does not make her greater than God; rather, it demonstrates the humility and humiliation of the Son in the Incarnation. Yet, in his humiliation, he retained full divinity (as God could never cease to be God); and this glorious truth is why the Blessed Virgin is most certainly called Mother of God. She is not exalted above Him, for who could ever be above the Most High? But she is exalted far above one such as me since she is the bearer of the Word made flesh. Of course, her humility, virtue, and obedience are noteworthy even apart from being the mother of our Lord. But all generations call her Blessed because she is the Mother of God.

 

[Soldier_X]

Resolved: Mary is Mother of God. That is what Scripture says. That is what the Church taught, teaches and will always teach. To say otherwise is either to deny Christ’s divinity or to deny that Mary is His mother … wrong both ways.

Amen!!!

Now, as to St. Louis De Montfort, I think he deserves a fair hearing.
Here is his “Prayer to eternal Wisdom”:

“Divine Wisdom, Lord of heaven and earth, I humbly beg pardon for my audacity in attempting to speak of your perfections, ignorant and sinful as I am. I beg you not to consider the darkness of my mind or the uncleanness of my lips unless it be to take them away with a glance of your eyes and a breath of your mouth. There is in you so much beauty and delight; you have shielded me from so many evils and showered on me so many favours, and you are moreover so little known and so much slighted. How can I remain silent? Not only justice and gratitude, but my own interests urge me to speak about you, even though it be so imperfectly. It is true, I can only lisp like a child, but then I am only a child, anxious to learn how to speak properly through my lisping, once I have attained the fullness of your age (cf. Eph. 4:13).
I know there seems to be neither order nor sense in what I write, but because I long so dearly to possess you, I am looking for you everywhere, like Solomon, wandering in all directions (Wisd. 8:18). If I am striving to make you known in this world, it is because you yourself have promised that all who explain you and make you known will have eternal life (cf. Sir. 8:18). Accept, then, my loving Lord, these humble words of mine as though they were a masterly discourse. Look upon the strokes of my pen as so many steps to find you and from your throne above bestow your blessings and your enlightenment on what I mean to say about you, so that those who read it may be filled with a fresh desire to love you and possess you, on earth as well as in heaven.”
A beautiful prayer indeed.

placido

I have not encountered St. Louis De Montfort before. With prayers such as these, I will have to learn more about him. He approaches the Lord with such humility, awe, and reverence…how wonderful!

 

[moondweller]

I think you are being unfair and you know that. You can not judge a person who died at the age of 43 based only on one of his prayers. I think it would be fair to review all his other prayers to get a clearer picture of whether he had or had no confidence in what Christ did for him. I think one can “accuse” St. Louis De Montfort of “excessive” Marian devotion, but to accuse him of lacking confidence in Christ si a bit unfair.

placido

He approached God as a slave, through Mary, who did not fulfill what he considered his salve obligations, rather than as a child of God by grace through faith in the finished work of Jesus Christ. He demonstrates no confidence in Christ.

But you say one can “accuse” him of “excessive” Marian devotion. May I ask, what would a Catholic ever consider “excessive” Marian devotion? In the Catholic mind, is there such a thing? Would you call this excessive?"All power is given to thee in heaven and on earth, and nothing is impossible to thee, who canst raise those who are in despair to the hope of salvation’…when the Mother goes to seek a favour for us from Jesus Christ’ (whom the Saint calls the golden altar of mercy, at which sinners obtain pardon), ’ her Son esteems her prayers so greatly, and is so desirous to satisfy her, that when she prays, it seems as if she rather commanded than prayed, and was rather a queen than a handmaid.’ 3 Jesus is pleased thus to honour His beloved Mother, who honoured Him so much during her life, by immediately granting all that she asks or desires. This is beautifully confirmed by Saint Germanus, who addressing our Blessed Lady says : ’ Thou art the Mother of God, and all-powerful to save sinners, and with God thou needest no other recommendation; for thou art the Mother of true life.’ 4’At the command of Mary, all obey, even God.'Nestorius, whose ideas were distorted and maligned by Cyril, Patriarch of Alexandria, in a repulsive political struggle, but vindicated at the council of Chalcedon, said that if you call Mary the mother of God you will make her a goddess. Based on the above quote, was he wrong?

 

[Tantum_ergo]

Did you ever truly READ De Montfort’s True Devotion and not just use cut and paste?

I have.

De Montfort noted that one was a slave of JESUS IN MARY. In being a slave of Mary, he understood that he was so because Jesus was in Mary (by virtue of His divine Conception) perfectly. . .(you aren’t for example going to say that Jesus in the womb was ‘less’ divine’ out of the womb, right? Jesus in the womb is fully God, fully Man, just as much as He is out of the womb, right?) and thus that she is the first, brightest and best of those who are HIS slaves. Her entire being is rooted in who HE is, which then makes Mary who SHE is.

Mary, even as the one to whom one ‘attaches’ oneself, is not chosen’as an alternative’ to Christ, but in order that our ultimate aim (which is always Christ) is achieved as ‘expeditiously’ as possible, and as perfectly as possible.

Did God ‘stop’ coming to us through Mary? No, He will always be her son. He will always have come to us through her, and He chose this as THE BEST WAY; why do we not choose the ‘best way’ to go to HIM which is through her?

 

[ron77nyc]

"All power is given to thee in heaven and on earth, and nothing is impossible to thee, who canst raise those who are in despair to the hope of salvation’…when the Mother goes to seek a favour for us from Jesus Christ’ (whom the Saint calls the golden altar of mercy, at which sinners obtain pardon), ’ her Son esteems her prayers so greatly, and is so desirous to satisfy her, that when she prays, it seems as if she rather commanded than prayed, and was rather a queen than a handmaid.’ 3 Jesus is pleased thus to honour His beloved Mother, who honoured Him so much during her life, by immediately granting all that she asks or desires. This is beautifully confirmed by Saint Germanus, who addressing our Blessed Lady says : ’ Thou art the Mother of God, and all-powerful to save sinners, and with God thou needest no other recommendation; for thou art the Mother of true life.’ 4’At the command of Mary, all obey, even God.’

I see you’re continuing from the other thread “How Does Marian Devotion Save.”
These are the words of St. Alphonsus de Liguori quoted from motherofallpeoples.com/ar…-advocate.html. His book “The Glories of Mary” also says: “Whoever asks and wishes to obtain graces without the intercession of Mary, attempts to fly without wings” [Liguori, Glories of Mary, page 189]

“What poor sinners we should be if we had not this advocate, so powerful and so merciful, and at the same time so prudent and so wise, that the judge, her Son, cannot condemn the guilty, if she defends them. … Precisely the same thing does Mary continually in heaven, in behalf of innumerable sinners: she knows so well how to appease the divine justice with her tender and wise entreaties, that God himself blesses her for it, and as it were thanks her, that thus she restrains him from abandoning and punishing them as they deserve” [Liguori, Glories of Mary, page 220]

What confuses is me is much of what he says is not correct Catholic doctrine but he was canonized in 1839 by Pope Gregory XVI and declared a Doctor of the Church by Pope Pius IX in 1871.

 

[ron77nyc]

Did God ‘stop’ coming to us through Mary? No, He will always be her son. He will always have come to us through her, and He chose this as THE BEST WAY; why do we not choose the ‘best way’ to go to HIM which is through her?

It has been our tradition, how we have practiced our faith for the past 2,000 years, that we have always honored the Mother of God…

But GOD in the New Testament, chose to come to us through MARY, Now wouldn’t it make perfect sense that GOD would want us to come to him by the “EXACT” way he chose to come to us, through MARY?

This was not the original gospel message and it isn’t apostolic tradition. Mary is certainly the most holy and obedient human who ever lived and she is a saint and our intercessor but salvation comes from believing in Jesus. The apostles never taught going to Jesus through Mary. Mary was with them on earth.

 

[Tantum_ergo]

This was not the original gospel message and it isn’t apostolic tradition. Mary is certainly the most holy and obedient human who ever lived and she is a saint and our intercessor but salvation comes from believing in Jesus. The apostles never taught going to Jesus through Mary. Mary was with them on earth.

How do you know it ISN"T apostolic tradition? And Mary did not (by that same apostolic tradition) outlive St. John, did she? (Who indeed taught us about devotion to her, see Revelation). Going to Jesus through Mary doesn’t make us not saved through Jesus. If anything, it ‘intensifies’ our knowledge. Who was the first ‘saved’ through Jesus but Mary (at her conception?)

 

[placido]

He approached God as a slave, through Mary, who did not fulfill what he considered his salve obligations, rather than as a child of God by grace through faith in the finished work of Jesus Christ. He demonstrates no confidence in Christ.

But De Montfort demonstrates much confidence in the finished word of Jesus Christ elsewhere. That is why I propose that, intead of judging him based of that one prayer, read all of his writings. A different picture would emerge.

But you say one can “accuse” him of “excessive” Marian devotion. May I ask, what would a Catholic ever consider “excessive” Marian devotion? In the Catholic mind, is there such a thing?

Yes!

placido

 

[ron77nyc]

Going to Jesus through Mary doesn’t make us not saved through Jesus. If anything, it ‘intensifies’ our knowledge. Who was the first ‘saved’ through Jesus but Mary (at her conception?)

If you talk more about Mary than Jesus and you very seldom preach the gospel then you get a church full of people who either believe another gospel and another way of salvation or maybe most of them don’t know what to believe so they start listening to Oprah Winfrey and going to tarot card readers and astrologists. Mary intercedes for us but it’s not right to tell people they must go to Jesus through Mary. Jesus is the cornerstone and the foundation that everything else is built on. If you say you must go through Mary then Mary becomes the cornersone and the foundation.

 

[placido]

If you talk more about Mary than Jesus and you very seldom preach the gospel then you get a church full of people who either believe another gospel and another way of salvation or maybe most of them don’t know what to believe so they start listening to Oprah Winfrey and going to tarot card readers and astrologists. Mary intercedes for us but it’s not right to tell people they must go to Jesus through Mary. Jesus is the cornerstone and the foundation that everything else is built on. If you say you must go through Mary then Mary becomes the cornersone and the foundation.

But where is this imaginary Catholic Church where people are exclusively told to go to Jesus through Mary? The Catholic Church I know has a Liturgical Year. And within that Liturgical Year there is a time when Marian dovotion is emphasised. But the impression being created here is like Catholics talk nothing more than Mary.

placido

 

[moondweller]

If you talk more about Mary than Jesus and you very seldom preach the gospel then you get a church full of people who either believe another gospel and another way of salvation or maybe most of them don’t know what to believe so they start listening to Oprah Winfrey and going to tarot card readers and astrologists. Mary intercedes for us but it’s not right to tell people they must go to Jesus through Mary. Jesus is the cornerstone and the foundation that everything else is built on. If you say you must go through Mary then Mary becomes the cornersone and the foundation.

I agree with your logic, but not your assertions. How do you know that: “Mary is certainly the most holy and obedient human who ever lived?” Or that she (or any deceased person) intercedes for you: “and she is a saint and our intercessor”?

If she truly is the Catholic’s heavenly “intercessor,” then, logically, why wouldn’t a Catholic talk more about Mary than Christ? She’s at the forefront. Since Catholics don’t believe they’re at the moment eternally saved through “faith” in Christ alone, but rather “being saved” with the hope that they “will be saved” (based on their present performance), then why wouldn’t Mary, their heavenly intercessor, through devotion to her, be considered a “type” of savior (small “s”)?

 

[jlhargus]

Originally Posted by Rumpelstiltskin
Using ‘mystery’ to excuse the reasonings for the assumption is not facing the truth.

You cannot give birth to something that already existed since the beginning of time.

JL: Mary birthed God MADE flesh, the God-Man did not exist till God became Man, born of the Mother of God.