If Mary was the mother of God...

[moondweller]

Moon,

Have you ever heard of the term Hypostatic Union?

Just for you:

oce.catholic.com/index.php?title=Hypostatic_Union

Did you read your link?*"…and was definitively established by the Council of Chalcedon (451), which declared that in Christ the two natures, each retaining its own properties, are united in one subsistence and one person (eis en prosopon kai mian upostasin) (Denzinger, ed. Bannwart, 148). They are not joined in a moral or accidental union (Nestorius), nor commingled (Eutyches), and nevertheless they are substantially united.*Now I defer you to my previous post. Click here

 

[Soldier_X]

Did you read your link?"…and was definitively established by the Council of Chalcedon (451), which declared that in Christ the two natures, each retaining its own properties, are united in one subsistence and one person (eis en prosopon kai mian upostasin) (Denzinger, ed. Bannwart, 148). They are not joined in a moral or accidental union (Nestorius), nor commingled (Eutyches), and nevertheless they are substantially united.Now I defer you to my previous post. Click here

The Nestorian view could almost be seen as dividing the union into two persons. The Monophysites merged the union into one nature. Chalcedonian Christology shows us one man with two perfectly united natures, inseparable and unmingled. It also affirms Mary as the Mother of God. After all, either her Son is God or else he is not God. Mary as the mother of the human Christ only was the preferred terminology of Nestorius, but it is biblically and Christologically insufficient.

 

[GreggAlvarez]

and God is your Father, does that not make Mary your GRAND MOTHER ???

Serious answers only please.

32 pages?!

Yes, it never explicitly says “Mary was the Mother of God.” Neither does it use Trinity or even Incarnation or Mass or Transubstantiation or “go to church every Sunday at least, if not everyday” or even apostolic succession. But it is something we knew (know) as a fact even before those things were set in doctrine. It is all there but not explicitly. That negates the explicit use of the Bible as far as syntax and semantics go (implications yes).

Let me put it like this (if we are saying Mary was the Grandmother of God):

1. Mary is the mother of Jesus Christ.
2. Jesus is God.
3. God is also the Father.
4. Mary is Mother of God.
5. Mary is Mother of the Father.
6. Jesus is Son of the Father.
7. Mary is Grandmother of the Son.
8. Mary is Grandmother of God.
   (Or something like that. I happen to be a terrible explainer-of-things)

This is where the law of non-contradictions comes in.

1. God is the Son.
2. God is the Father.
3. The Father is the Son.

I think any sane person would agree that that is not logical.

When we say Mary is the Mother of God, we mean Mary is Mother of Jesus, Son of God, Son of the Father. Your mother gives birth not to your nature but to YOU. You includes your nature though. Jesus is a “You”. Mary gave birth to a “You” which includes both his Person and his Divine Nature. She gave birth to the second Person of the Holy Trinity. He took flesh from man, for his human nature and was concieved by the Holy Spirit which is the Love (Hence, God is love in 1 John) flowing eternally from the Father to the Eternal Logos (Son) and vice-versa, for his divine nature.

I hope this helps you (or anyone) understand why Mary cannot be the Grandmother of God. Very valid question though. I can DEFINITELY understand how someone would think that.

 

[moondweller]

The Nestorian view could almost be seen as dividing the union into two persons. The Monophysites merged the union into one nature. Chalcedonian Christology shows us one man with two perfectly united natures, inseparable and unmingled. It also affirms Mary as the Mother of God.

Only in the restricted sense that the Child she bore was Divine. The emphasis being on the Child, not the mother. To put the emphasis on the mother is another form of Monophysitism, a fusion of the divine and human.

After all, either her Son is God or else he is not God.

But did He not take on true humanity? And is not the name Jesus connected to His incarnation (Lk. 1:31)?

Mary as the mother of the human Christ only was the preferred terminology of Nestorius, but it is biblically and Christologically insufficient.

Yet, Biblically, Mary is always called the mother of Jesus, never the mother of God. It never goes that far. It can’t.

 

[Soldier_X]

All I can say is that Mother of God affirms the Hypostatic Union of Christ’s two natures. God-Bearer or Theotokos are acceptable synonyms. Mother of God also affirms Mary’s role in the Incarnation. The Mother of Christ is the Mother of God, as Christ is God. She bore God Incarnate, Who was always infinitely more than just a baby in her womb. That is why we use the terminology that we do.

I don’t think we’re going to change each other’s minds on this one.

 

[moondweller]

All I can say is that Mother of God affirms the Hypostatic Union of Christ’s two natures.

Actually, if affirms only one nature and essentially ignores the other, and at the same time exalts the woman.

I don’t think we’re going to change each other’s minds on this one.

You’re right, my friend. But it’s always good to keep the doors open for friendly discussion.

 

[Soldier_X]

it’s always good to keep the doors open for friendly discussion.

Absolutely

 

[jlhargus]

You cannot give birth to something that already exist in the case of God because if you do, you are implying that there is a point in time where just before God appears again (re-birth), there was no God. Let’s not confuse ourselves here. There is no mystery.
.

JL: God BECAME FLESH=MAN, to deny Mary is mother of God, is to deny that God BECAME MAN.

 

[onenow1]

JL: God BECAME FLESH=MAN, to deny Mary is mother of God, is to deny that God BECAME MAN.

Time for a little prayer to Jesus. Eternal and Incarnate Wisdom.

Jesus I give thee thanks that You have annihilated Thyself, taking the form of a slave in order to rescue me from the cruel slavery of the devil.I praise and glorify Thee for You have been pleased to submit thyself to Mary, Thy holy Mother,in all things, in order to make me your Your faithful slave through her. Though I promised in my baptism to renounce satan his pomps and works and give myself entirely to You.But Alas ! I have not fullfilled my obligations; I do not deserve to be called Your Child nor Thy slave. Since you came to humanity through Mary ! So I will approach Your most august majesty, through Your Mother.
An edited prayer: St.Louis De Montfort

God Bless All

 

[moondweller]

Time for a little prayer to Jesus. Eternal and Incarnate Wisdom.

Jesus I give thee thanks that You have annihilated Thyself, taking the form of a slave in order to rescue me from the cruel slavery of the devil.I praise and glorify Thee for You have been pleased to submit thyself to Mary, Thy holy Mother,in all things, in order to make me your Your faithful slave through her. Though I promised in my baptism to renounce satan his pomps and works and give myself entirely to You.But Alas ! I have not fullfilled my obligations; I do not deserve to be called Your Child nor Thy slave. Since you came to humanity through Mary ! So I will approach Your most august majesty, through Your Mother.
An edited prayer: St.Louis De Montfort

God Bless All

Or, a reminder of what God has revealed in His Word concerning Christ and the believer:2 Cor 5:17-19 "Therefore if anyone is in Christ, {he is}* a new creature**; the old things passed away; behold, new things have come. Now all {these} things are from God, who reconciled us to Himself through Christ and gave us the ministry of reconciliation, namely, that God was in Christ reconciling the world to Himself, not counting their trespasses against them, and He has committed to us the word of reconciliation*."Christ accomplished and finished the work of reconciliation on the cross. At the time of personal faith in Christ His, once for all, historical work of reconciliation is applied to the believer, in full. Being a new creature in Christ he is forever reconciled to God. A once enemy (Rom. 5:10) he is now a friend of God and has access to the “throne of grace” through Christ any time, anywhere through prayer (Heb. 4:16). All “obligations” were met by Christ and what pleases God is a confident walk by faith in what Christ has done, once for all, on our behalf (1 Cor. 1:21; Heb. 11:6).

What St.Louis De Montfort states above sounds very humble and pious but it totally lacks faith in the Person and work of Christ. Hence, he has no confidence to directly approach the throne of grace as instructed in God’s Word.

 

[campeador]

At the time of personal faith in Christ His, once for all, historical work of reconciliation is applied to the believer, in full. Being a new creature in Christ he is forever reconciled to God. A once enemy (Rom. 5:10) he is now a friend of God and has access to the “throne of grace” through Christ any time, anywhere through prayer (Heb. 4:16). All “obligations” were met by Christ and what pleases God is a confident walk by faith in what Christ has done, once for all, on our behalf (1 Cor. 1:21; Heb. 11:6).

“I find joy in the sufferings I endure for you. In my own flesh I fill up what is lacking in the sufferings of Christ for the sake of His Body, the Church”. (Col. 1:24)

What St.Louis De Montfort states above sounds very humble and pious but it totally lacks faith in the Person and work of Christ. Hence, he has no confidence to directly approach the throne of grace as instructed in God’s Word.

Maybe you could do a little research on St.Louis-Marie De Montfort (wiki link just for you) before you pass judgment. A little more respect and courtesy toward your Christian brethren would be nice as well.

 

[onenow1]

Or, a reminder of what God has revealed in His Word concerning Christ and the believer:2 Cor 5:17-19 "Therefore if anyone is in Christ, {he is}* a new creature***; the old things passed away; behold, new things have come. Now all {these} things are from God, who reconciled us to Himself through Christ and gave us the ministry of reconciliation, namely, that God was in Christ reconciling the world to Himself, not counting their trespasses against them, and He has committed to us the word of reconciliation."Christ accomplished and finished the work of reconciliation on the cross. At the time of personal faith in Christ His, once for all, historical work of reconciliation is applied to the believer, in full. Being a new creature in Christ he is forever reconciled to God. A once enemy (Rom. 5:10) he is now a friend of God and has access to the “throne of grace” through Christ any time, anywhere through prayer (Heb. 4:16). All “obligations” were met by Christ and what pleases God is a confident walk by faith in what Christ has done, once for all, on our behalf (1 Cor. 1:21; Heb. 11:6).

What St.Louis De Montfort states above sounds very humble and pious but it totally lacks faith in the Person and work of Christ. Hence, he has no confidence to directly approach the throne of grace as instructed in God’s Word.

I read just the opposite in that prayer moon, seems to me Jesus is raised higher not lower.
Here is the beginnig of that pious prayer you reject.> O Eternal and Incarnate Wisdom O sweetest and most adorable Jesus! True God and True Man only son of the eternal Father.
And I adore thee also in the virginal bosom of thy mother in the time of thy incarnation.Quote=onenow1.>None have been touched with such Holiness like Mary since that time.Remember ! Moses was special he got to see God’s back,and his face reflected the holiness of God. Mary the God Man in her womb; can’t even imagine !

As Adam and Eve lost there preternatural gifts Jesus has recovered for us in a more perfect way
our salvation recognizable to the human and spiritual condition; And I love 2 Cor 5:17-19 especially in the case of the Mother of God, who Jesus knew and loved from all eternity.

So we shall work out our salvation in fear and trembling.Phil. 2:12

*“Better to understand a little than to misunderstand a lot.” :yup:

 

[placido]

Only in the restricted sense that the Child she bore was Divine.

You are applying double standards here, demanding that things be clearly mentioned in the Bible, but your “restricted sense” is not in the Bible.

The emphasis being on the Child, not the mother.
To put the emphasis on the mother is another form of Monophysitism, a fusion of the divine and human.

The emphasis was, is, and will always be on the Child but we can not mention the Child without saying whose Child.

But did He not take on true humanity? And is not the name Jesus connected to His incarnation (Lk. 1:31)?Yet, Biblically, Mary is always called the mother of Jesus, never the mother of God. It never goes that far. It can’t.

Some would use that same argument and say “biblically Mary is never called mother of God THEREFORE Jesus is not God”.
The issue is not about Mary, it is about Jesus’s Divinity. Like you rightly said it is about the Child.

placido

 

[placido]

Or, a reminder of what God has revealed in His Word concerning Christ and the believer:2 Cor 5:17-19 "Therefore if anyone is in Christ, {he is}* a new creature***; the old things passed away; behold, new things have come. Now all {these} things are from God, who reconciled us to Himself through Christ and gave us the ministry of reconciliation, namely, that God was in Christ reconciling the world to Himself, not counting their trespasses against them, and He has committed to us the word of reconciliation."Christ accomplished and finished the work of reconciliation on the cross. At the time of personal faith in Christ His, once for all, historical work of reconciliation is applied to the believer, in full. Being a new creature in Christ he is forever reconciled to God. A once enemy (Rom. 5:10) he is now a friend of God and has access to the “throne of grace” through Christ any time, anywhere through prayer (Heb. 4:16). All “obligations” were met by Christ and what pleases God is a confident walk by faith in what Christ has done, once for all, on our behalf (1 Cor. 1:21; Heb. 11:6).

What St.Louis De Montfort states above sounds very humble and pious but it totally lacks faith in the Person and work of Christ. Hence, he has no confidence to directly approach the throne of grace as instructed in God’s Word.

St. Louis De Montfort has no confidence to directly approach the “throne of grace”? You are joking.
Here is one of St. Louis De Montfort’s prayers:

O most loving Jesus, deign to let me pour forth my gratitude before Thee, for the grace Thou hast bestowed upon me in giving me to Thy holy Mother through the devotion of Holy Bondage, that she may be my advocate in the presence of Thy majesty and my support in my extreme misery.
Alas, O Lord! I am so wretched that without this dear Mother I should be certainly lost. Yes, Mary is necessary for me at Thy side and everywhere that she may appease Thy just wrath, because I have so often offended Thee; that she may save me from the eternal punishment of Thy justice, which I deserve; that she may contemplate Thee, speak to Thee, pray to Thee, approach Thee and please Thee; that she may help me to save my soul and the souls of others; in short, Mary is necessary for me that I may always do Thy holy will and seek Thy greater glory in all things.
Ah, would that I could proclaim throughout the whole world the mercy that Thou hast shown to me ! Would that everyone might know I should be already damned, were it not for Mary! Would that I might offer worthy thanksgiving for so great a blessing! Mary is in me.
Oh, what a treasure! Oh, what a consolation! And shall I not be entirely hers? Oh, what ingratitude! My dear Saviour, send me death rather than such a calamity, for I would rather die than live without belonging entirely to Mary. With St. John the Evangelist at the foot of the Cross, I have taken her a thousand times for my own and as many times have given myself to her; but if I have not yet done it as Thou, dear Jesus, dost wish, I now renew this offering as Thou dost desire me to renew it.
And if Thou seest in my soul or my body anything that does not belong to this august Princess, I pray Thee to take it and cast it far from me, for whatever in me does not belong to Mary is unworthy of Thee.
O Holy Spirit, grant me all these graces. Plant in my soul the Tree of true Life, which is Mary; cultivate it and tend it so that it may grow and blossom and bring forth the fruit of life in abundance.
O Holy Spirit, give me great devotion to Mary, Thy faithful spouse; give me great confidence in her maternal heart and an abiding refuge in her mercy, so that by her Thou mayest truly form in me Jesus Christ, great and mighty, unto the fullness of His perfect age. Amen.

Now, tell me: to whom is St. Louis De Montfort praying when he says “O most loving Jesus, deign to let me pour forth my gratitude before Thee”? To whom is he praying when he says “O Holy Spirit, grant me all these graces … O Holy Spirit, give me great devotion to Mary”?
Well, it seems he does not “lack confidence in approaching the throne of graces” because here we see him doing just that.
Conclusion: you are wrong – again!

placido

 

[moondweller]

You are applying double standards here, demanding that things be clearly mentioned in the Bible, but your “restricted sense” is not in the Bible.

This was in the context of “mother of God,” which is not in the Bible.

The emphasis was, is, and will always be on the Child but we can not mention the Child without saying whose Child.

Why not?

Some would use that same argument and say “biblically Mary is never called mother of God THEREFORE Jesus is not God”

No, they couldn’t say that “Biblically” because it’s in the Bible that Christ’s divinity is clearly revealed: “…and the Word was God…and the Word became flesh and dwelt among us.” We don’t need Mary for this wonderful revelation. It’s unfortunate that men did try to explain His deity through her (“theotokos”), all they needed to do was appeal to the Scriptures.

 

[moondweller]

Now, tell me: to whom is St. Louis De Montfort praying when he says “O most loving Jesus, deign to let me pour forth my gratitude before Thee”? To whom is he praying when he says “O Holy Spirit, grant me all these graces … O Holy Spirit, give me great devotion to Mary”?
Well, it seems he does not “lack confidence in approaching the throne of graces” because here we see him doing just that.
Conclusion: you are wrong – again!

Here’s where he lacked faith: “But Alas ! I have not fullfilled my obligations; I do not deserve to be called Your Child nor Thy slave.” He had no faith, no confidence in what Christ did for him, once for all. Christianity and its salvation isn’t about what we “deserve,” but rather the abundance of God’s grace toward us who are completely undeserving. That’s what divine “grace” is all about: unmerited, unrecompensed, undeserved favor because of what Christ DID for us, not what we do or did not do. In Christ the believer rejoices greatly that he IS God’s child, having been eternally redeemed by the blood of Christ and adopted into God’s household (Jn. 1:12). And for this reason we go boldly and confidently before the throne of grace in time of need. Such faith pleases God.

 

[Rumpelstiltskin]

JL: God BECAME FLESH=MAN, to deny Mary is mother of God, is to deny that God BECAME MAN.

And you got that right. Mary was the son of the MAN, not of God (which existed before her).

Like I said before if I CHANGE my car into a piece of paper and I sell you the paper for 20cents, am I selling you the paper or the car ???

If you say car, then you must either be unable to see what you have in your hand or you are trying to claim ownership of something you don’t possess. And no, if it had been the car, I would certainly not sell it to you for 20cents

You can dream…and you can scream, but you get what you pay. And what Mary had some contribution to was the humanity of Jesus which was put on the cross to die for our sins. Amen.

.

 

[Church_Militant]

Here’s where he lacked faith: “But Alas ! I have not fullfilled my obligations; I do not deserve to be called Your Child nor Thy slave.” He had no faith, no confidence in what Christ did for him, once for all. Christianity and its salvation isn’t about what we “deserve,” but rather the abundance of God’s grace toward us who are completely undeserving. That’s what divine “grace” is all about: unmerited, unrecompensed, undeserved favor because of what Christ DID for us, not what we do or did not do. In Christ the believer rejoices greatly that he IS God’s child, having been eternally redeemed by the blood of Christ and adopted into God’s household (Jn. 1:12). And for this reason we go boldly and confidently before the throne of grace in time of need. Such faith pleases God.

This is dead wrong.

St. Louis was merely, (and correctly) stating something that Our Lord says in the New Testament in Luke 17:6] And the Lord said, “If you had faith as a grain of mustard seed, you could say to this sycamine tree, Be rooted up, and be planted in the sea,' and it would obey you. **7**] "Will any one of you, who has a servant plowing or keeping sheep, say to him when he has come in from the field, Come at once and sit down at table’?
8] Will he not rather say to him, Prepare supper for me, and gird yourself and serve me, till I eat and drink; and afterward you shall eat and drink'? **9**] Does he thank the servant because he did what was commanded? **10**] So you also, when you have done all that is commanded you, say, We are unworthy servants; we have only done what was our duty.’”

 

[Rumpelstiltskin]

Time for a little prayer to Jesus. Eternal and Incarnate Wisdom.

Jesus I give thee thanks that You have annihilated Thyself, taking the form of a slave in order to rescue me from the cruel slavery of the devil.I praise and glorify Thee for You have been pleased to submit thyself to Mary, Thy holy Mother,in all things, in order to make me your Your faithful slave through her. Though I promised in my baptism to renounce satan his pomps and works and give myself entirely to You.But Alas ! I have not fullfilled my obligations; I do not deserve to be called Your Child nor Thy slave. Since you came to humanity through Mary ! So I will approach Your most august majesty, through Your Mother.
An edited prayer: St.Louis De Montfort

God Bless All

And Jesus says “NO MAN GOES TO THE FATHER EXCEPT THROUGH ME”.

And you go to Mary? That’s just great, isn’t it??? . Someone tells you to go to him and you go to his neighbor’s house. Interesting.

PS… Those who belongs to God calls Him through the spirit, Abba Father! Once a son always a son. The servant has no place in the house. John 8:35 Now a slave has no permanent place in the family, but a son belongs to it forever..

By his own admission then, St. Louis De Montfort is quite obviously a slave and no son of God.

 

[ron77nyc]

JL: God BECAME FLESH=MAN, to deny Mary is mother of God, is to deny that God BECAME MAN.

Jesus created or “gave birth” to Mary.

John 1:3 All things came into being through Him, and apart from Him nothing came into being that has come into being.

Romans 11:36 For from Him and through Him and to Him are all things. To Him be the glory forever. Amen.

Colossians 1:16 For by Him all things were created, both in the heavens and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or rulers or authorities-- all things have been created through Him and for Him.