If Mary was the mother of God...

[rovimax]

You call THIS insulting Mary ?

Luke 1:38 "I am the Lord’s servant," Mary answered.

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Jesus did not call Mary servant, Mary called herself servant because of her humble personality and her willingness to submit to God’s will. You made a comment with malicious intent. You just proved how minimal researched you did on this matter.

 

[Rumpelstiltskin]

Jesus did not call Mary servant, Mary called herself servant because of her humble personality and her willingness to submit to God’s will. You made a comment with malicious intent. You just proved how minimal researched you did on this matter.

If I do something are you going to tell me my intention for doing it?

 

[LilyM]

Jesus did not call Mary servant, Mary called herself servant because of her humble personality and her willingness to submit to God’s will. You made a comment with malicious intent. You just proved how minimal researched you did on this matter.

Furthermore Jesus called HIMSELF servant! Picture that - the great God-Man, saying He came to earth not to be served but to serve. More than that, though - He ALSO declared Himself to be the greatest of all, being last of all and servant of all.

Are the two (greatness and servanthood) incompatible? Not at all.

‘The greatest of all must be last of all and servant of all’. True servanthood accompanied by greatness and an exalted position. The greater the spirit of servanthood, the greater the exaltation. The first shall be last and the last first.

‘He casts the mighty from their thrones and RAISES the lowly’. As Mary herself said. He doesn’t leave them, or her, stuck in their lowliness, but rewards them for their humility and raises them - to greatness.

 

[Tietjen]

If you notice, you are the one who has the responsibility to show the validity of your claims. I don’t have to defend anything because…

1 - The Bible NEVER said Mother of God.
2 - The Bible NEVER said the seed in Genesis 3 refers to Jesus.
3 - The Bible NEVER said the woman in Genesis 3 refers to Mary.
4 - The Bible NEVER said Mary is the Queen of Heaven
5 - The Bible NEVER said God could be born by a woman.

Show me the above 5 points to be false and you will prove yourself right. Its as simple as that. If you cannot, it just shows that you’re talking out of context (basically no case) and you are not a follower of the teachings of God as written in the Bible.

It isn’t as “simple as that” because many have shown you where the Bible supports Mary as being the mother of Christ (who is God). Your second point is accepted by MANY Protestant denominations as who else could crush the head of the serpent? You? If #2 is in fact Christ, then #3 by default has to be Mary. Your 4th objection might be worth arguing if you’d care to create a new thread on the subject. Your 5th point refers back to your 1st point. So regardless whether someone here “shows” you anything, you will only repeat the same mantra, “Mary is not the mother of God.” What you probably meant to say in your post was, PROVE to me that the above 5 points are false and you will prove yourself right." However, the history of this thread proves that you are unable/willing to understand; therefore I believe that it would be impossible to PROVE to you anything that you won’t accept. Just as it would be an impossibility for you to disprove Mary being the Mother of God to Catholics.

As for whose responsibility it is to prove anything… it was you here came here to a Catholic form and threw down the gauntlet. If you want to challenge dogma you’ll have to come better prepared to defend that challenge than simply saying over and over and over again that “Mary is not the mother of God.” The obligation is on YOU to prove that YOU know better than 2000 years of Church teaching. Are you prepared to do so? I think not.

 

[Rumpelstiltskin]

The obligation is on YOU to prove that YOU know better than 2000 years of Church teaching. Are you prepared to do so? I think not.

That’s your answer to the 5 questions above ???

“2000 years of teachings” ?

So, if God were to ask you to prove yourself, you’re going to say… "You want me to explain why we are saying these 5 things which are not defined in your scripture?..Go tell my 2,000 year old church ".



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[PeaceSerenity]

Sorry to interrupt, just a quick question for Rumplestiltskin…

You say Mary is not the Mother of God, is that because you believe

1. Jesus wasn’t God
2. or Mary wasn’t His Mother

You don’t have your faith declared in your “brief profile” so I’m not seeing from what position you are arguing…

Sorry!

 

[MartinJordan]

Ive been always under the impression that Mary is the Mother of God because Jesus himself is God (one of three Persons in the Godhead).

Perhaps those not satisfied with the Churches teaching get the impression that she is in control of him but it’s not anything like that. After all, there is but one God The Father Almighty he’s in charge. But to deny Mary not being the mother of God, is not to honor her “Honor your father and mother” because even Jesus did follow the Commandments. Jesus even gave his mother to John “here is your Mother” fulfilling the Jewish tradition.

At the same time not everything is written in the Bible. It comes down to Faith and understanding;sincere understanding.

MJ

 

[sixofseven]

That’s your answer to the 5 questions above ???

“2000 years of teachings” ?

So, if God were to ask you to prove yourself, you’re going to say… "You want me to explain why we are saying these 5 things which are not defined in your scripture?..Go tell my 2,000 year old church ".



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The Church was around long before Scripture was, in fact it was the Church who defined Scripture BASED ON WHAT IT BELIEVED so it will do you little godd to try and use that same scripture to disprove what we believe and teach.

Matthew 18:16-17
But if he will not listen, take one or two others along, so that ‘every matter may be established by the testimony of two or three witnesses.’ which we have done here for you If he refuses to listen to them, tell it to the church; and if he refuses to listen even to the church, treat him as you would a pagan or a tax collector.

Scripture does not say ‘go to Scripture’. Scripture says **the Church **is the final authority and “God’s household, which is the church of the living God, the pillar and foundation of the truth.” 1 Timothy 3:5

Guess what else the Church has the God-given right to…bind and loose

Matt18:18 "I tell you the truth, whatever you bind on earth will be bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth will be loosed in heaven.

So yes, that IS the answer to your five questions.

 

[Rumpelstiltskin]

Ive been always under the impression that Mary is the Mother of God because Jesus himself is God (one of three Persons in the Godhead).

Perhaps those not satisfied with the Churches teaching get the impression that she is in control of him but it’s not anything like that. After all, there is but one God The Father Almighty he’s in charge. But to deny Mary not being the mother of God, is not to honor her “Honor your father and mother” because even Jesus did follow the Commandments. Jesus even gave his mother to John “here is your Mother” fulfilling the Jewish tradition.

At the same time not everything is written in the Bible. It comes down to Faith and understanding;sincere understanding.

MJ

For your note, if you speak to a traditional Jew, you will know that calling your mother as ‘woman’ is an indication of your distancing yourself from her. It is not respect. Jesus even asked “Who is my mother, and who are my brothers?” And stretching out his hand toward his disciples, he said, “Here are my mother and my brothers! For whoever does the will of my Father in heaven is my brother, and sister, and mother.”

It is not difficult to see that Jesus never denied that Mary was His mother. YET…Jesus ALSO says that these who do the will of the Father is also His mother. So, are these also mothers of God ???

You see, you CANNOT take one simple phrase by Elizabeth to cover your entire doctrinal foundation because Elizabeth is firstly NOT the Messiah, but also because it was not given as an instruction.

God does not have a mother. Jesus was both man & God. God coming to earth as a man needed an earthly mother. But that mother is NOT the mother of God. That mother is the mother for Him to come to earth.

 

[MartinJordan]

For your note, if you speak to a traditional Jew, you will know that calling your mother as ‘woman’ is an indication of your distancing yourself from her. It is not respect. Jesus even asked “Who is my mother, and who are my brothers?” And stretching out his hand toward his disciples, he said, “Here are my mother and my brothers! For whoever does the will of my Father in heaven is my brother, and sister, and mother.”

It is not difficult to see that Jesus never denied that Mary was His mother. YET…Jesus ALSO says that these who do the will of the Father is also His mother. So, are these also mothers of God ???

You see, you CANNOT take one simple phrase by Elizabeth to cover your entire doctrinal foundation because Elizabeth is firstly NOT the Messiah, but also because it was not given as an instruction.

God does not have a mother. Jesus was both man & God. God coming to earth as a man needed an earthly mother. But that mother is NOT the mother of God. That mother is the mother for Him to come to earth.

On the contrary, Jesus calling Mary “woman” is exactly how men would call a woman in the first century, even if she was their mother. Which “traditional” Jew gave you that impression. Strange.

But let me add, that Jewish men name the females similarly in- Jesus in : Mt 15:28; Peter in: Luke 22:57; Jesus again in John 4:21.

Even Jesus is consistent in the way he calls his mother as in John 19:26 “Woman behold your son” and not as you think without respect.

Jesus showing that it’s not family ties but he will do the Will of his Father. The focus is always on God and and God’s wishes.

Regarding Elizabeth, let me use NIV Luke 41 - 43 :

When Elizabeth heard Mary’s greeting, the baby leaped in her womb, and Elizabeth was filled with the Holy Spirit. 42In a loud voice she exclaimed: "Blessed are you among women, and blessed is the child you will bear! 43But why am I so favored, that the mother of my Lord should come to me?

So let’s not miss **filled with the Holy Spirit **(part of the One God) and thus says it. Please do not skip that part. The Church is careful that nothing is missed and their Doctrines are based on the trust of its understanding what the Holy Spirit gives it.

MJ

 

[Rumpelstiltskin]

On the contrary, Jesus calling Mary “woman” is exactly how men would call a woman in the first century, even if she was their mother. Which “traditional” Jew gave you that impression. Strange.

But let me add, that Jewish men name the females similarly in- Jesus in : Mt 15:28; Peter in: Luke 22:57; Jesus again in John 4:21.

Even Jesus is consistent in the way he calls his mother as in John 19:26 “Woman behold your son” and not as you think without respect.

Jesus showing that it’s not family ties but he will do the Will of his Father. The focus is always on God and and God’s wishes.

Regarding Elizabeth, let me use NIV Luke 41 - 43 :

When Elizabeth heard Mary’s greeting, the baby leaped in her womb, and Elizabeth was filled with the Holy Spirit. 42In a loud voice she exclaimed: "Blessed are you among women, and blessed is the child you will bear! 43But why am I so favored, that the mother of my Lord should come to me?

So let’s not miss **filled with the Holy Spirit **(part of the One God) and thus says it. Please do not skip that part. The Church is careful that nothing is missed and their Doctrines are based on the trust of its understanding what the Holy Spirit gives it.

MJ

You did not answer me. So, are these other women who according to Jesus are His mothers ALSO mothers of God ? Since it is JESUS Himself who calls them His mother.

Mary was the mother of Jesus, the PHYSICAL form that had the Spirit of God in Him. Jesus is God NOT because of His physical body (which can be crucified on the cross).

Although Jesus is God (because God’s Spirit was in Him), and Mary is His mother, Mary is NOT the mother of God. Mary was the mother of the physical form that God undertook for His Son.

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[sixofseven]

You did not answer me. So, are these other women who according to Jesus are His mothers ALSO mothers of God ? Since it is JESUS Himself who calls them His mother.

Mary was the mother of Jesus, the PHYSICAL form that had the Spirit of God in Him. Jesus is God NOT because of His physical body (which can be crucified on the cross).

Although Jesus is God (because God’s Spirit was in Him), and Mary is His mother, Mary is NOT the mother of God. Mary was the mother of the physical form that God undertook for His Son.

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Mary bore and gave birth to a Divine person, not a human nature.

You said it yourself: Mary was the mother of the physical form that **God **undertook for His Son.

 

[sixofseven]

You did not answer me. So, are these other women who according to Jesus are His mothers ALSO mothers of God ? Since it is JESUS Himself who calls them His mother.

Mary was the mother of Jesus, the PHYSICAL form that had the Spirit of God in Him. Jesus is God NOT because of His physical body (which can be crucified on the cross).

Although Jesus is God (because God’s Spirit was in Him), and Mary is His mother, Mary is NOT the mother of God. Mary was the mother of the physical form that God undertook for His Son.

.

You have also not answered our questions. Who is the woman in Genesis, who is her seed, who is the enemy?

 

[Rumpelstiltskin]

Mary bore and gave birth to a Divine person, not a human nature.

You said it yourself: Mary was the mother of the physical form that **God **undertook for His Son.

I have already answered this previously. But for your sake, I shall answer again.

If Jesus was ONLY Divinity, then the crucifixion would not have been possible because it would be impossible to have Him killed.

There must therefore be a human portion of Jesus for Him to suffer the same pains as we do, which as what I have been telling you is that which was crucificied and is that which is not divinity.

What is physical therefore is not divine.

I have given this analogy many times. God is a Spirit. Think of it as a balloon with hydrogen in it. God is the hydrogen, Jesus is that Balloon that is filled with hydrogen. I am a balloon maker, not hydrogen maker…hydrogen came from the air/nature which I did not create.

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[Rumpelstiltskin]

You have also not answered our questions. Who is the woman in Genesis, who is her seed, who is the enemy?

Find the answer in my previous posts.

 

[sixofseven]

Calling Mary ‘woman’ is also how we identify her with the woman in Genesis and the woman in Revelation.

Who else could it be?

 

[Rumpelstiltskin]

Calling Mary ‘woman’ is also how we identify her with the woman in Genesis and the woman in Revelation.

Who else could it be?

We don’t choose by the process of elimination. Woman is a general term that we are using even as today.

 

[LilyM]

I have already answered this previously. But for your sake, I shall answer again.

If Jesus was ONLY Divinity, then the crucifixion would not have been possible because it would be impossible to have Him killed.

There must therefore be a human portion of Jesus for Him to suffer the same pains as we do, which as what I have been telling you is that which was crucificied and is that which is not divinity.

What is physical therefore is not divine.

I have given this analogy many times. God is a Spirit. Think of it as a balloon with hydrogen in it. God is the hydrogen, Jesus is that Balloon that is filled with hydrogen. I am a balloon maker, not hydrogen maker…hydrogen came from the air/nature which I did not create.

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I’ve never heard it before in my life. And I’ve read your posts, I think I’d know if you’d used it.

By your analogy no-one is a father or mother of their child - since we are all filled with God-given spirit (the hydrogen), and all any of our parents provide is the rubber exterior.

Question - what name do you give to the female who bore in her womb the body into which God infused YOUR spirit? When you were growing up with this woman, did you make a point of saying to her ‘Good morning, person who bore my body but isn’t my mother because she did not create my spirit’? And did she insist on saying ‘good morning, person whose body I bore within my womb but who isn’t my child and to whom I can’t possibly be mother because I didn’t create their spirit’???

:

 

[sixofseven]

I have already answered this previously. But for your sake, I shall answer again.

If Jesus was ONLY Divinity, then the crucifixion would not have been possible because it would be impossible to have Him killed.

There must therefore be a human portion of Jesus for Him to suffer the same pains as we do, which as what I have been telling you is that which was crucificied and is that which is not divinity.

What is physical therefore is not divine.

I have given this analogy many times. God is a Spirit. Think of it as a balloon with hydrogen in it. God is the hydrogen, Jesus is that Balloon that is filled with hydrogen. I am a balloon maker, not hydrogen maker…hydrogen came from the air/nature which I did not create.

.

Jesus = DIVINE PERSON = Fully GOD and fully human = what IS physical IS Divine.
After the fall, no human could make up for what happened, God tired to reconile through Noah who got drunk, Abraham who took a mistress, Moses who disobeyed…the ONLY way God could reconcile humankind to Himself was BY Himself.

Consider the following - reference at the end…

Every single action of Christ was the action of the Second Person of the Blessed Trinity, and this includes every action done by him in his human nature. For natures are sources of action-, but not doers. It is always the person who does them, and in his human nature there was but one single person, and that person was God. There was no human person, for that would have made him two people, each with his own distinct nature. His human nature was complete, but it was united to a divine person, not a human person.

We may make this clearer by glancing at two great Christian truths: Mary was the mother of God, and God died upon the cross.

Our Blessed Lady did exist before the Second Person of the Trinity was born into human nature; that this one Son already existed in his divine nature does not alter the truth that it was in her womb that he was conceived as man, from her womb born into our world. His eternal existence as Son of his heavenly Father does not by one jot diminish what she gave him. There is nothing received by any human being from his mother that he did not receive from her.

It was God the Son who died—not, of course, in his divine nature, which cannot know death and which holds the universe in existence, but in the human nature which was so utterly his. Death, remember, does not for any one of us mean annihilation. It means the separation of soul and body, a separation that at the last judgment will be ended. Upon Calvary, the body that was God the Son’s was separated from the soul that was likewise his. And on the third day they were united again. In his human nature God the Son rose from the death that in his human nature had been his.

In our reading of the Gospels, it is vital that we should never forget that every word uttered and every action performed by Christ is uttered and performed by God the Son. With the words, perhaps even more than with actions, we shall find sayings we are often tempted to call hard. The one Person said I, in the divine nature and in the human nature, in an infinite nature and a finite nature. He could say, “I and the Father are one”; he could say, “The Father is greater than I”; it is the same Person, uttering the truth of distinct natures, but asserting each nature as truly his own.

Reference: catholic.com/thisrock/2003/0312clas.asp

 

[Jimmy_B]

and God is your Father, does that not make Mary your GRAND MOTHER ???

Serious answers only please.

“Grandmother” is a secular, biological term and therefore, the answer would be - No. Now, God the Father, God the Son (Jesus) and, God the Holy Spirit, are three parts, all equal and all one God. So, the secular concept of “grandparent” doesn’t apply here either. God, in all three essences; The Holy Trinity, is one God, God the Father… Not, God the “Grandfather” and Jesus, the “Father”…Remember, they are all EQUAL… Mary, is obviously our spiritual mother and not our biological mother, or our biological grand-mother… This one was easy…