If Mary was the mother of God...

[Tietjen]

How can the Spirit transform into flesh through the “co-operation”??? Be careful…You are edging closer to the boundary of blasphemy.

LOL - Not really. God gave Mary the choice in the matter. She choose to do God’s will (Lk 1:38). Accept it or deny it, but be careful… If you deny it you are edging closer to denying sola scriptura.

 

[VetA]

Let’s flesh out the queer logic. If Mary is not the mother of God, then she is not Jesus’ mother. But this contradicts scripture.

from the nature of his question, i do not think he gives much credence to Sacred Scripture

 

[LilyM]

If Jesus was not fully man, it would not be possible to crucify Him. But being both Man & God does not imply that BOTH entities came from Mary. Bear in mind that the conception of Jesus was the WORK of the Holy Spirit. Of what contribution Mary truly made in that delivery is something nobody here can claim. It could be 10% or it could be 1%…or even 0%.

Uh, no. Bearing, giving birth to and raising a child to adulthood is significantly more than a 0% or 1% contribution, probably more than a 10%. We are commanded by God to honour our parents precisely because their contribution to our lives is ever and always one of the biggest and most important.

Mary bore and birthed and raised Jesus. That alone is enough to truly make her his mother, no? There are surrogate mothers who don’t raise children after birth, or necessarily contribute any DNA, and adoptive mothers who don’t give birth, who nonetheless are all truly mothers. So Mary is more deserving of the title than either, certainly.

Now let’s consider what being a mother means. One cannot be a mother of bits and pieces of a person, one can only ever be a mother of a WHOLE person, with all that entails. Example - if I become a politician, my mother is indisputably mother of a politician. Even if she made no contribution to my obtaining politicial office. Even if she abandoned me at birth and made no contact thereafter, she is nonetheless my mother and mother of a politician.

So what is this ‘whole person’ of Jesus that Mary is mother to? It consists of an INseparably linked divine and human nature. If there is not that inseparable link, then Jesus’ body is just a mere cloak of flesh, and its suffering and death is no more significant than your or my suffering and death. Certainly the ONLY reason HIS suffering and death, unlike ours, could atone for the sins of all mankind for all time is BECAUSE His human nature (and body) was INseparably linked to His divine nature. It made that death much more significant than the death of any mere non-divine person could possibly be.

AND His resurrection. Why else would His body ascend to heaven rather than rot and corrupt like all our bodies are destined to do when we die? Because it is a MORE than natural body, it is the body of the God-Man, truly God incarnate and not just borrowing a human nature for a little while and then returning it.

So joining the dots. Mary IS the mother of the whole person of Christ. I’ve established that the mere fact of her bearing and raising Him makes her His mother and necessarily mother of His whole person. And I’ve established that from the moment of His conception onwards His humanity and divinity were inseparably united, His person (the person of which she was mother) was both human AND divine. Both manly and Godly. Hence she IS the Mother of God.

 

[Rumpelstiltskin]

Did you carry it in your womb? Was it a baby? If so, then yes… you are a mother. If not… you are simply the mailman.

Is a surrogate mother to you also a natural mother?

 

[VetA]

Blessed be Mary, virgin and mother. The Immaculate Virgin, Mary, the most Holy Theotokos, is the one who conceived, carried, gave birth to, nursed, and raised the second member of the Most Holy and Life-Giving Trinity.

God the Father is Our Father. He is the Father of Mary Most-Holy as well. His only begotten son, begotten before all ages, is Jesus the Christ. He is of the same essence as his father. However, Mary is his Mother and God the Father is the Father of them both. How is this possible?

Mary has a tri-fold relationship to the Holy Trinity; because she conceived the Child by the Holy Spirit he has become her immaterial spouse. She is Daughter, Mother, and Spouse of God, for all are one, yet the persons are three. United in essence, undivided in unity, yet three persons. For all are God, and all are Lord, but there are not three Gods and three Lords but one God and one Lord.

Accept the Holy Mystery. Glory to Jesus Christ!

the Triune God has a triune relationship with the new Eve, interesting, did you think of this yourself or did you hear this from a theologian?

 

[Rumpelstiltskin]

Uh, no. Bearing, giving birth to and raising a child to adulthood is significantly more than a 0% or 1% contribution, probably more than a 10%. We are commanded by God to honour our parents precisely because their contribution to our lives is ever and always one of the biggest and most important.

Mary bore and birthed and raised Jesus. That alone is enough to truly make her his mother, no? There are surrogate mothers who don’t raise children after birth, or necessarily contribute any DNA, and adoptive mothers who don’t give birth, who nonetheless are all truly mothers. So Mary is more deserving of the title than either, certainly.

Now let’s consider what being a mother means. One cannot be a mother of bits and pieces of a person, one can only ever be a mother of a WHOLE person, with all that entails. Example - if I become a politician, my mother is indisputably mother of a politician. Even if she made no contribution to my obtaining politicial office. Even if she abandoned me at birth and made no contact thereafter, she is nonetheless my mother and mother of a politician.

So what is this ‘whole person’ of Jesus that Mary is mother to? It consists of an INseparably linked divine and human nature. If there is not that inseparable link, then Jesus’ body is just a mere cloak of flesh, and its suffering and death is no more significant than your or my suffering and death. Certainly the ONLY reason HIS suffering and death, unlike ours, could atone for the sins of all mankind for all time is BECAUSE His human nature (and body) was INseparably linked to His divine nature. It made that death much more significant than the death of any mere non-divine person could possibly be.

AND His resurrection. Why else would His body ascend to heaven rather than rot and corrupt like all our bodies are destined to do when we die? Because it is a MORE than natural body, it is the body of the God-Man, truly God incarnate and not just borrowing a human nature for a little while and then returning it.

So joining the dots. Mary IS the mother of the whole person of Christ. I’ve established that the mere fact of her bearing and raising Him makes her His mother and necessarily mother of His whole person. And I’ve established that from the moment of His conception onwards His humanity and divinity were inseparably united, His person (the person of which she was mother) was both human AND divine. Both manly and Godly. Hence she IS the Mother of God.

Enoch too was raised to heaven direct. Do you mean Enoch has that ‘flesh’ of God???

 

[Tietjen]

How can God have a mother when He is the Alpha & the Omega? The beginning and the end?

It sounds as though you would limit what God can and cannot do. That is sad and it is therefore pointless to continue this conversation since we cannot agree with the basic belief that with God, nothing is impossible.

 

[Rumpelstiltskin]

It sounds as though you would limit what God can and cannot do. That is sad and it is therefore pointless to continue this conversation since we cannot agree with the basic belief that with God, nothing is impossible.

It sounds as though you will readily extend what God is not doing and will not do. That to me is sad too. Always consider both sides of the coin.

 

[Tietjen]

How? By the Holy Ghost !

God is Spirit. What is Spirit gives birth to spirit, what is flesh gives birth to flesh. The Spirit of God came from God. Not from Mary.

That would work but the Bible says that He was man too. Otherwise, how could man crucify a spirit??? Me thinks you protest too much.

 

[Rumpelstiltskin]

That would work but the Bible says that He was man too. Otherwise, how could man crucify a spirit??? Me thinks you protest too much.

I agree, you cannot crucify a spirit. Our discussion is not so much on whether he was man. He certainly was.

Our discussion is whether it is right to call Mary the mother of God since God cannot have a mother (being the Alpha & the Omega).

 

[Tietjen]

Is a surrogate mother to you also a natural mother?

What makes a surrogate mother a surrogate mother?.. I think that the criteria is that the person raising the child did not actually give birth to the child. Since this was not the case in this situation (unless you deny the Bible) we cannot use that argument now can we?

 

[VetA]

How can God have a mother when He is the Alpha & the Omega? The beginning and the end?

indeed he is the beginning and the end, mary is mother of Jesus’ human nature, not his devine one Jesus is 100% God and 100% man His human nature cannot be sperated from his Devine so therefore it is correct to say that God is creator, yet at the same time He is also the Son of the mother of His human nature

 

[LilyM]

Is a surrogate mother to you also a natural mother?

Well, as the title surrogate MOTHER implies (d’uh), a surrogate is truly a mother even if she didn’t contribute any biology (which is what I presume you mean by ‘natural’ mother’) As if someone who nurtures a babe in their womb and gives birth to it can’t ALSO be a ‘natural’ mother.

A surrogate gives of her body and her very blood to nurture that child for nine long months, she endures the pains and pangs of birth to bring that child into the world. She absolutely has a maternal bond with that baby as a result, even if the DNA isn’t hers and even if she ends up not raising it after birth.

 

[LilyM]

Enoch too was raised to heaven direct. Do you mean Enoch has that ‘flesh’ of God???

The difference, of course, being that Enoch was assumed by God’s power whereas Jesus’ body ascended under its OWN divine power - that power deriving from the inseparable link between His divine and human natures.

 

[Tietjen]

I agree, you cannot crucify a spirit. Our discussion is not so much on whether he was man. He certainly was.

Our discussion is whether it is right to call Mary the mother of God since God cannot have a mother (being the Alpha & the Omega).

But God became man and how did He accomplish this… He chose to be born. He did this and Mary was His mother. You can try to take away from who Mary was, but in so doing, you really do sound rather silly. Because if you say that Mary was not the mother of the Christ, you not only oppose scripture, which clearly says otherwise, you make Christ the only man who was motherless (excluding Adam and Eve of course) and that is simply silly.

 

[LilyM]

But God became man and how did He accomplish this… He chose to be born. He did this and Mary was His mother. You can try to take away from who Mary was, but in so doing, you really do sound rather silly. Because if you say that Mary was not the mother of the Christ, you not only oppose scripture, which clearly says otherwise, you make Christ the only man who was motherless (excluding Adam and Eve of course) and that is simply silly.

Exactly. Isaiah prophesies that the child the Virgin bears will be indeed her son and nothing else. In fact Genesis says the child who will vanquish the Devil (clearly Jesus) will clearly be seed of the woman (Mary - who else if NOT her?) Elizabeth calls her Christ’s mother.

We can quibble over the precise details of Mary’s maternal relationship, to a certain extent. But we cannot deny that she IS His mother, and we cannot deny that He is God. She therefore, being His mother, must indeed be the Mother of God.

 

[Rumpelstiltskin]

But God became man and how did He accomplish this… He chose to be born. He did this and Mary was His mother. You can try to take away from who Mary was, but in so doing, you really do sound rather silly. Because if you say that Mary was not the mother of the Christ, you not only oppose scripture, which clearly says otherwise, you make Christ the only man who was motherless (excluding Adam and Eve of course) and that is simply silly.

Just answer me this. Can God be borne?

 

[LilyM]

Just answer me this. Can God be borne?

Can God become Man? Can God be helpless and dependent? Can God be circumcised? And grow in grace and wisdom? And make Himself obedient to men?

Of course He can, if He chooses so. And He DID choose it. Chose everything that being human entails, apart from sin. And being human, and borne as humans are, is no sin.

Becoming man, of course God could be borne just as man is. And could be a helpless dependent baby, just as all babies are, and be circumcised as all Jewish boys were. And grow in grace and wisdom, as all children do, and be subject and obedient to His parents, as all children are.

It’s there in scripture that all these things took place - the Word, that was with God and WAS GOD, that very same Word (not just part of it) became flesh. Being borne by a mother as all flesh is. And dwelt among us thereafter.

 

[VetA]

Just answer me this. Can God be borne?

His human nature can, but inasmuch as God being birthed at some point in time, no, however, God decided to be born of a woman in order to save the world from its sins, so in that sense he decided to suffer the human experience of being a human, so that would entail a human nature being conceived borne and also dying a human death. so in the since of borne meaning He at one point did not exist and then came into existance, no God was not borne, but on the other side of the coin God decided to become fully Human, so he was borne as a human, however even before he was born like a human he was still God. and even when he was being borne he was still God

 

[WetCatechumen]

the Triune God has a triune relationship with the new Eve, interesting, did you think of this yourself or did you hear this from a theologian?

LOL I wish I thought of it myself. No, I learned this from a theologian. Many others have practiced Christianity and loved it enough to study it greatly for much longer than I have existed.