If Mary was the mother of God...

[Roy5]

Hm! Just a quick thought, which I’m sure has been expressed before here. In fact, I believe I’ve suggested it before, but here I go again.

I have trouble accepting Mary as the mother of God. She is the mother of Jesus, of course, the human side. The spiritual side came from the Holy Spirit.

How can Mary be the mother of God? God was never created, always was from eternity. So, logically, how could Mary be the mother of our Lord God who was eternal? That simply doesn't make sense. Actually, Mary is the daughter of God rather than God's mother. We all are children of God.

The concept of mother certainly suggests, among other things, coming before. My mother came before me, her mother before her, etc. Yes, Mary was responsible for the flesh and blood of Jesus, but doesn't mother of God fight logic?

I'm well aware that this is heresy - Nestorianism or maybe Arianism??? Perhaps Adoptianism or something equally wicked. That doesn't concern me. I treasure the freedom to think for myself, and dismissing ideas because they were condemned hundreds of years ago doesn't intimidate. God gave me a brain to use and not let someone else do the thinking for me.  

 It's certainly enough of an honor, and a reason to be honored, to be the mother of Jesus. But some Catholics have simply gone to far in their veneration of Mary. As someone from Catholic/Protestant heritage, this over-emphasis on Mary has been one of my stumbling blocks with Catholicism. I have trouble with fundamentalist (sola scriptura) Protestantism also. Mainline 'big tent' Protestantism, where freedom of belief seems to be tolerated and even encouraged, has a growing appeal. I guess I don't need an authority to think for me. I'll take my chances that God approves of independent thinking. I believe God does.

 

[LilyM]

The concept of mother certainly suggests, among other things, coming before. My mother came before me, her mother before her, etc. Yes, Mary was responsible for the flesh and blood of Jesus, but doesn't mother of God fight logic?

No more so than the very idea of God becoming Man. No more so than the idea of God being Trinity - Three AND One at one and the same time. Both are ideas incomprehensible by human logic.

I’m well aware that this is heresy - Nestorianism or maybe Arianism??? Perhaps Adoptianism or something equally wicked. That doesn’t concern me. I treasure the freedom to think for myself, and dismissing ideas because they were condemned hundreds of years ago doesn’t intimidate. God gave me a brain to use and not let someone else do the thinking for me.

They didn’t condemn it for fun. They condemned it because without Jesus being at one and the same time, and inseparably, God AND Man, our salvation would be impossible. The death of Jesus’ mere human body wouldn’t have saved us, any more than the death of any other human body, and if it were only His divinity that saved us, then why bother with the Incarnation at all? Why not stay nice and comfortable in heaven and zap us into salvation, as He could surely have chosen to do?

Furthermore, your idea makes nonsense of the fact that Jesus was truly human - ‘like us in all ways but sin’. Truly human means His mother is mother of the WHOLE person, including the spirit or soul.

And how do you know OUR souls don’t pre-exist our bodies (and the bodies of our mothers and grandmothers)? It’s entirely possible, there’s no scriptural evidence negating it. Indeed God says ‘BEFORE I formed you in the womb I knew you’, which would seem to indicate that our souls DO pre-exist our bodies.

 

[Rumpelstiltskin]

The death of Jesus’ mere human body wouldn’t have saved us, any more than the death of any other human body

From this we know your doctrinal foundations are not right with God.

God came in the form of man to die on the cross for the sins of mankind. You are speaking in rejection and questioning the equitability of His death on the cross.

Do you know what is the punishment?

You speak without knowledge. What was sacrificed on the cross was a perfectly sinless MAN. Better to keep quiet and have people think you’re intelligent than open your mouth and let them realise they were wrong.

• As what even the accuser shall say “how can the redemption of your people be valid when you sacrificed not a man on the cross but a deity! And God is fair ?”

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[LilyM]

From this we know your doctrinal foundations are not right with God.

God came in the form of man to die on the cross for the sins of mankind. You are speaking in rejection and questioning the equitability of His death on the cross.

Do you know what is the punishment?

You speak without knowledge. What was sacrificed on the cross was a perfectly sinless MAN. Better to keep quiet and have people think you’re intelligent than open your mouth and let them realise they were wrong.

• As what even the accuser shall say “how can the redemption of your people be valid when you sacrificed not a man on the cross but a deity! And God is fair ?”

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God came IN THE FORM of a man, absolutely. But did Jesus cease being God? Ever? At any point? Even on the cross?

Perfect sinless man? Tell me, WHERE and HOW did He attain this superhuman ability to be sinless? You don’t believe even Mary, with all the graces given her by God, was sinless for her whole life, do you? So why He? HOW did He remain sinless except HIS sinless divinity was mingled with (and protected from sin) His humanity?

 

[Rumpelstiltskin]

God came IN THE FORM of a man, absolutely. But did Jesus cease being God? Ever? At any point? Even on the cross?

Perfect sinless man? Tell me, WHERE and HOW did He attain this superhuman ability to be sinless? You don’t believe even Mary, with all the graces given her by God, was sinless for her whole life, do you? So why He? HOW did He remain sinless except HIS sinless divinity was mingled with (and protected from sin) His humanity?

Lily,

someone commented here once asking “Why are many catholics priests who are convicted of pedophilia & other crimes able or allowed to forgive sins?”. The answer given was that even though these priests were unclean or sinful, they were bestowed the authority to extend godly forgiveness.

The same I ask of you. Why the double standard?

If unclean people can forgive sins, why then according to you must mary be clean before she can be allowed to give birth to the clean?

Because you twist and turn doctrines to fit your preferences?

• If Mary needs to be cleansed before she can give birth to Jesus, who then cleansed mary’s mother for mary herself to be born clean? There is absolutely no doctrinal backing on the cleansing of Mary whatsoever. Again, out-of-biblical-boundary. If you have not already noticed, I base my claims on the Bible, you however, base it on your own judgement/speculation/preferences and hear-say.

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[LilyM]

Lily,

someone commented here once asking “Why are many catholics priests who are convicted of pedophilia & other crimes able or allowed to forgive sins?”. The answer given was that even though these priests were unclean or sinful, they were bestowed the authority to extend godly forgiveness.

The same I ask of you. Why the double standard?

If unclean people can forgive sins, why then according to you must mary be clean before she can be allowed to give birth to the clean?

Because you twist and turn doctrines to fit your preferences?

• If Mary needs to be cleansed before she can give birth to Jesus, who then cleansed mary’s mother for mary herself to be born clean? There is absolutely no doctrinal backing on the cleansing of Mary whatsoever. Again, out-of-biblical-boundary. If you have not already noticed, I base my claims on the Bible, you however, base it on your own judgement/speculation/preferences and hear-say.

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Because Mary, however graced she might have been, was a purely human creature. Giving birth to and raising her was an entirely different matter to giving birth to and raising God incarnate. One that was much less difficult and consequently required much less divine aid and protection.

 

[John_Paul_Jones]

• If Mary** needs to be cleansed **before she can give birth to Jesus, who then cleansed mary’s mother for mary herself to be born clean? There is absolutely no doctrinal backing on **the cleansing of Mary **whatsoever. Again, out-of-biblical-boundary. If you have not already noticed, I base my claims on the Bible, you however, base it on your own judgement/speculation/preferences and hear-say.

Mary didn’t need to be cleansed, she was given a special privilege of not being born of original sin and continued to remain in the state of grace both by her free will and special graces given to her by God. What the Church knows about Mary is based on tradition, The Bible, and approved apparitions, (when talking about out-of-biblical-boundaries less emphasis should be placed on the apocrypha writings and unapproved apparitions.)

 

[swariffin]

Lily,

someone commented here once asking “Why are many catholics priests who are convicted of pedophilia & other crimes able or allowed to forgive sins?”. The answer given was that even though these priests were unclean or sinful, they were bestowed the authority to extend godly forgiveness.

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The authority to hear confession is given to the ordination, not to the person. The power to forgive sins comes from the Holy Spirit which is also given to the ordination. So, the person who is being ordained, is only the tool to deliver the forgiveness of God.
A priest is also ordinary human being who is sinful. A priest who is in so-called “great sinful condition” should prohibit himself to hear confession. The catholic who is in “great sinful condition” should refrain themselves from taking the holy communion, until having confessing the sins. Well, the problem is, not many people dare to admit that he/she is in sinful condition. But, lo and behold, God knows everything.

 

[Rumpelstiltskin]

Mary didn’t need to be cleansed, she was given a special privilege of not being born of original sin and continued to remain in the state of grace both by her free will and special graces given to her by God.

What God had set to achieve was for someone to be born without original sin yet dying for the sins of man.

If Mary could be made without original sin, there would have been no need for Jesus to come. Mary herself could be the sacrificial lamb. But she isn’t, cos no man is without sin except Jesus who was not born of man, but of GOD.

What the Church knows about Mary is based on tradition, The Bible, and approved apparitions, (when talking about out-of-biblical-boundaries less emphasis should be placed on the apocrypha writings and unapproved apparitions.)

That’s the problem. If something can be accepted beyond the Bible as the word of God, then anything can be accepted…you just need enough people to believe in it.

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[Rumpelstiltskin]

The authority to hear confession is given to the ordination, not to the person. The power to forgive sins comes from the Holy Spirit which is also given to the ordination. So, the person who is being ordained, is only the tool to deliver the forgiveness of God.

Likewise, the person who is being born perfect comes from the Holy Spirit. The person who is bearing Him, is only the tool to deliver that gift.

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[Tietjen]

If Mary could be made without original sin, there would have been no need for Jesus to come. Mary herself could be the sacrificial lamb. But she isn’t, cos no man is without sin except Jesus who was not born of man, but of GOD.

Mary was a not God. God perserved her from the stain of original sin but that did not make her God, just as Adam and Eve prior to sin were not God. Being sinless is not the qualifier to God-hood. Mary was just a human being and had she been the sacrificial lamb, her death would not have brought salvation. Only God in the person of the Christ could do that.

That’s the problem. If something can be accepted beyond the Bible as the word of God, then anything can be accepted…you just need enough people to believe in it.

But as it has been pointed out in past posts, there is no Biblical proof that the Bible calls itsef the only truth. In fact the complete opposite is spoken about in 1 Cor 11:2, 2 Thess 2:15, 2 Thess 3:6, Jn 21:25, Mk 13:31, Acts 20:35, 2 Tim 1:13, 2 Tim 2:2, 2 Pet 1:20, 2 Pet 3:15-16, 1 Pet1:25, Rom 10:17, 1 Cor 15:1-2, Mk 16:15, Mt 23:2-3. Besides the Biblical proof for truth exsiting outside of scripture, there is the more pratical fact of the matter. Protestants have for 400-500 years now tried to rely soly on Scripture alone. What has happened? They splintered into over 30,000 denominations because they can’t agree wholly on what the Bible is saying. Where’s the truth in that mess? God is a God of order not chaos.

Are you going to answer my question concerning your denomination?

 

[Rumpelstiltskin]

Mary was a not God. God perserved her from the stain of original sin but that did not make her God, just as Adam and Eve prior to sin were not God. Being sinless is not the qualifier to God-hood. Mary was just a human being and had she been the sacrificial lamb, her death would not have brought salvation. Only God in the person of the Christ could do that.

That’s a very NEW concept to me. But have you thought about this…if Mary can be preserved from the stain of original sin (without or prior to Jesus), and thereby not be condemned to death. Why couldn’t God extend that preservation to ALL of mankind, and thereby do away with the need for Jesus altogether?

But as it has been pointed out in past posts, there is no Biblical proof that the Bible calls itsef the only truth. In fact the complete opposite is spoken about in 1 Cor 11:2, 2 Thess 2:15, 2 Thess 3:6, Jn 21:25, Mk 13:31, Acts 20:35, 2 Tim 1:13, 2 Tim 2:2, 2 Pet 1:20, 2 Pet 3:15-16, 1 Pet1:25, Rom 10:17, 1 Cor 15:1-2, Mk 16:15, Mt 23:2-3. Besides the Biblical proof for truth exsiting outside of scripture, there is the more pratical fact of the matter. Protestants have for 400-500 years now tried to rely soly on Scripture alone. What has happened? They splintered into over 30,000 denominations because they can’t agree wholly on what the Bible is saying. Where’s the truth in that mess? God is a God of order not chaos.

Like I said, if the Bible is not to be wholly depended on, then the floodgates for corruption opens. Because anything and everything goes and you just need to get believers for them. 2 camps fighting each other does not imply one of them must be right. What’s more 30,001 of them (including the catholics).

Are you going to answer my question concerning your denomination?

How to answer when I have none?

 

[Tietjen]

That’s a very NEW concept to me. But have you thought about this…if Mary can be preserved from the stain of original sin (without or prior to Jesus), and thereby not be condemned to death. Why couldn’t God extend that preservation to ALL of mankind, and thereby do away with the need for Jesus altogether?

Who says that He couldn’t have? Nothing is impossible for God. Had He chosen to bring salvation into the world another way He could have done so. But that is not what He chose to do.

As for the assumption that Mary being preserved from the stain of original sin “without or prior to Jesus”… Jesus was Mary’s Savior as well as yours and mine. Mary wasn’t preserved “without or prior” to Jesus, but rather “because” of Jesus. God doesn’t reside within time, He created it. Today is like tomorrow is like 100 years ago, is like a thousand years from now to God. He’s watching His son hang on the cross while at the same time, casting Adam and Eve out of the Garden, while at the same time watching you grow up as a child. He’s not confined to His creation (time). Therefore, God knew that Mary would be the mother of His son before she was conceived and “because” she was to be the new Ark, she was created without blemish in order to carry God’s new Covenant to man (His son Jesus Christ).

Like I said, if the Bible is not to be wholly depended on, then the floodgates for corruption opens. Because anything and everything goes and you just need to get believers for them. 2 camps fighting each other does not imply one of them must be right. What’s more 30,001 of them (including the catholics).

Actually, the Catholic Church was the original Christian Church. It’s not a denomination. To deny that would look silly in the face of 2000 years of recorded history. But putting that aside for a moment, I have given you MANY Bible verses which support Truth not ONLY coming from Scripture but also through Tradition as passed down by the Church. Why do you ignore these passages? Are they in error?

How to answer when I have none?

Well who do you turn to when you have a question concerning the Bible, faith, etc?

 

[Jimmy_B]

“Grandmother” is a secular, biological term and therefore, the answer would be - No. Now, God the Father, God the Son (Jesus) and, God the Holy Spirit, are three parts, all equal and all one God. So, the secular concept of “grandparent” doesn’t apply here either. God, in all three essences; The Holy Trinity, is one God, God the Father… Not, God the “Grandfather” and Jesus, the “Father”…Remember, they are all EQUAL… Mary, is obviously our spiritual mother and not our biological mother, or our biological grand-mother… This one was easy…

 

[Deconi]

Mindful?..We have to be mindful when we say someone gave birth to Divinity. That statement is itself un-mindful of what and who God is.

We now know God by name! Jesus Christ.
All else we know of Him are what He Himself has attested to in His time with us…but as John clearly states, not all are written down.

Do not presume He is WHAT you expect! That is what the Jews (Judaism) are waiting for, and missed Him when he arrived!

Did Mary give birth to Divinity? Yes or No?

Yes! Clearly, it was not from her though, since The Son was ‘begotten, NOT made’!

Why He did it this way is for Him to know and for us to accept or reject.

If yes, then that’s saying she is the mother of God, and that makes her GREATER than God…and that is blasphemy.

The primary blasphemy is in insulting God by suggesting He ‘uses’ women in the manner of a, practically, rapist!..and discards them when He is done!

The secondary is in suggesting that He does NOT love His mother, yet teach us in His Commandments, to Love and HONOUR our own!

The implication is that He BREAKS the Commandments, yet He cannot lie!

It has been said to you already, your argument is with God!..since you will not accept or understand what has been revealed to His Church!
Ask Him for the understanding that we Catholics enjoy!
I suggest you learn a lesson from Him in being humble enough to ‘become Man’ His creation, the creature!..just so He can redeem such insolence and disobedience…when you ask Him for enlightenment.

If no, then that’s saying she is not the mother of God because God is divinity.

“Hail, Favoured One! Full of grace…Blessed art thou!” God says this through His messenger! That is what we Catholics do! What He said!

“How does it come that the mother of my Lord comes to see me?” Elizabeth, mother of John the Baptist! Elizabeth feels John ‘jump around’ in her own womb!

It is good you like The Bible! It is God’s word! Does it say in there that something stated within the passages is invalid unless it is repeated?

Since it is God’s word, DO YOU REQUIRE HIM TO REPEAT HIMSELF?

Is it your theology or thinking that SOME parts of Scriptures are HIGHER than others and more truthful than some other parts? If you do, then you win your own argument for we hold to ALL of Scriptures, in it’s entirety!..not portions against portions.

Its as simple as that. We’re going around in circles because there has been no ability to put up substantial argument for except quoting and re-quoting a phrase made by Elizabeth whose exact words do not imply Mary is the MOTHER of the CREATOR, but that she was the mother of the Lord who came in the form of humanity.

“I and the Father are One!” Jesus Christ.
“No! You’re only part-Father!” Rumpelstil…

“Unless you eat my flesh and drink my blood, you have no life IN you.” Jesus Christ.
“Erm…No! That would be just cannibalism! Pass me a rock, Judas! This is too much!” Rumpelstil…

“Father, why have you abandoned me?” Jesus Christ
“Oh c’mon!! That’s only your human side being a crybaby!” Rumpelstil…

“Father, into your arms I commit my spirit.” Jesus Christ
SEE!? Only His spirit is Divine! The body hanging there is just a shell! Rumpelstil…

RESURRECTION!
“I am hungry!” Jesus Christ.
*“Uhm…are you human now or do spirits eat? Are you fully Divine now or still human and Divine as the Catholics said? Where’s your Mum?!” * Rumpel…

…*

 

[jlhargus]

and God is your Father, does that not make Mary your GRAND MOTHER ??? Serious answers only please.

JL: If Mary wasn’t mother of God, THEN GOD did NOT BECOME FLESH (MAN). Jn1 The WORD was GOD and the WORD BECAME FLESH. Mary is my spiritual MOTHER in faith, not my grand mother. God is my Father not my grandfather, that makes Jesus my Brother.

 

[sonettegarbin]

From this we know your doctrinal foundations are not right with God.

God came in the form of man to die on the cross for the sins of mankind. You are speaking in rejection and questioning the equitability of His death on the cross.

Do you know what is the punishment?

You speak without knowledge. What was sacrificed on the cross was a perfectly sinless MAN. Better to keep quiet and have people think you’re intelligent than open your mouth and let them realise they were wrong.

• As what even the accuser shall say “how can the redemption of your people be valid when you sacrificed not a man on the cross but a deity! And God is fair ?”

.

Please explain what YOUR doctrinal foundations are - requested several times in this Forum.
What is the punishment you speak of?
What in our vocabulary convinces you that we are NOT speaking of a perfectly sinless man?
Who is ‘the accuser’ in your last paragraph? Do catholics know him?

Rumpelstiltskin. If unclean people can forgive sins, why then according to you must mary be clean before she can be allowed to give birth to the clean?

Are you aware of the fact of original sin - It was necessary that the ovum required for the embryo, the Son of God, the Son of man not to be genetically tarnished by original sin as in the case of all other human beings since the beginning of time, er…refrase … you are not programmed to understand that. since the fall - Adam and Eve…

confused: You sound more and more like a computer programme that cannot accept any word in its ‘dictionary’ other than what it was programmed for.

 

[moondweller]

Are you aware of the fact of original sin -** It was necessary that the ovum required for the embryo, the Son of God, the Son of man not to be genetically tarnished by original sin** as in the case of all other human beings since the beginning of time,

On what do you base this statement? How does an ovum transmit sin? Are you suggesting that the body (specifically, the female ovum) is the seat of sin? Scripture speaks nothing to Mary’s supposed “immaculate conception” (a doctrine of men based on the theory you postulate), yet it speaks clearly to the sinless of Christ (2 Cor. 5:21).

 

[jlhargus]

On what do you base this statement? How does an ovum transmit sin? Are you suggesting that the body (specifically, the female ovum) is the seat of sin? Scripture speaks nothing to Mary’s supposed “immaculate conception” (a doctrine of men based on the theory you postulate), yet it speaks clearly to the sinless of Christ (2 Cor. 5:21).

JL: [GEN 3:14 And the LORD God said unto the serpent Because thou hast done this thou art cursed… 15 And I will put ENMITY between THEE AND THE WOMAN and between THY SEED AND HER SEED it shall bruise thy head and thou shalt bruise his heel] God said, he would put ENMITY between THEE=Satan and THE WOMAN=Mary. HER SEED, women do not normally have seed, only men. Her seed would only come after her, yet God put enmity between Satan and the woman, Mary, before she conceived. Mary would always be at enmity with Satan, even at conception, otherwise she would have NOT been at enmity with Satan. She was never of Satan’s seed, therefore not under sin. Like Mary’s seed there was never a time when Mary or her SEED was not at enmity with Satan.

[ROM 8:6 For to be carnally minded is death but to be spiritually minded is life and peace 7 Because the CARNAL MIND IS ENMITY against God [Mary was always at enmity with Satan as God said I WILL PUT ENMITY BETWEEN THEE (SATAN) AND THE WOMAN (MARY).] JAS 4:6 But he giveth more grace. Wherefore he saith God resisteth the proud but GIVEGTH GRACE UNTO THE HUMBLE… [Wisdom1:4 Because wisdom will not enter a deceitful soul, nor dwell in a body enslaved to sin.]

[LK 1:46 And MARY SAID MY SOUL DOTH MAGNIFY THE LORD 47 And my spirit hath rejoiced in God my Saviour 48 For HE HATH REGARDED THE LOW ESTATE OF HIS HANDMAIDEN for behold from henceforth ALL GENERATIONS SHALL CALL ME BLESSED 49 For HE THAT IS MIGHTY HATH DONE TO ME GREAT THINGS and holy is his name. …52 He hath put down the mighty from their seats and EXALTED THEM OF LOW DEGREE]

[LK 1:28 And the angel came in unto her and said Hail thou that art HIGHLY FAVOURED the LORD IS WITH THEE blessed art thou among women 29 … 30 And the angel said unto her Fear not MARY for THOU HAST FOUND FAVOUR WITH GOD] Hail, the angel salutes Mary as a dignitary, or as one of importance. He calls her, Highly favoured or “full of grace”, Mary was in a state of grace and the Lord was already with her before the angel came. Usually angels are shown reverence, by one falling on their face, but this time an angel shows reverence to a person.]

In the garden of Eden, Satan spoke only to Eve, who was created without sin. Eve spoke to Adam and gave him the apple. Had Adam, the head of the human race, not eaten the apple we would still be in the Garden of Eden. Adam was head and represented all humanity, his sin caused the lose of the indwelling Holy Spirit for all humanity. It was thru Eve’s cooperation with Satan that sin entered the world. It is thru the new Eve, Mary, who was conceived without sin, who cooperated with God that salvation enters the world, thru Christ who is head and represents all humanity, as the new Adam.

CONTINUED:

 

[jlhargus]

John the Baptist, was FILLED WITH THE HOLY SPIRIT, sanctified, in the womb, therefore JOHN was BORN WITHOUT ORIGINAL SIN. Adam lost the indwelling of the Holy Spirit for mankind when he sinned. Original sin is not an actual sin, but a lack of the life of God within. We are not born deserving eternal life, that which is born of flesh is flesh, we are not born with the Holy Spirit in us. That’s why we baptise infants, to restore supernatural life to the soul. [Lk1:15 For he shall be great in the sight of the Lord, and shall drink neither wine nor strong drink; and he shall be FILLED WITH THE HOLY GHOST, even FROM HIS MOTHER’S WOMB. Lk1:41 And it came to pass, that, when Elizabeth HEARD THE SALUTATION OF MARY, THE BABE LEAPED IN HER WOMB; and Elizabeth was filled with the Holy Ghost:] The same God who filled and sanctified John the Baptist in the womb filled and sanctified Mary at conception, with God nothing is impossible. The immaculate conception is not a great leap of faith at all. Those doctrines on Mary are defined because they reveal who Christ is. Mary a type of Eve, reveals Christ as new Adam. Mary as mother of God, reveals Christ is God made flesh. When you deny Mary as mother of God, you deny God became flesh. [2Jn1:7 For many deceivers are entered into the world, WHO CONFESS NOT THAT JESUS CHRIST IS COME IN THE FLESH. This is a deceiver and an antichrist.]
bringyou.to/apologetics/a116.htm KECHARITOMENE, FULL OF GRACE.
The soul of the precursor was not preserved immaculate at its union with the body, but was sanctified either shortly after conception from a previous state of sin, or through the presence of Jesus at the Visitation. Again it is remarked that a peculiar privilege was granted to the prophet Jeremiah and to St. John the Baptist. They were sanctified in their mother’s womb, because by their preaching they had a special share in the work of preparing the way for Christ. (Catholic Encyclopedia) newadvent.org/cathen/07674d.htm Move down to, The conception of John the Baptist. For Jeremiah move down to Proof from reason.
We are told in the book of Hebrews what the ark of the old covenant contained, [Hb9:4 … the ark of the covenant overlaid round about with gold, WHEREIN WAS the golden pot that had MANNA, and AARON’S ROD that budded, and the TABLES OF THE CONVENANT;]

Mary the ark of the new covenant, wherein was; the MANNA= CHRIST, TRUE BREAD OF LIFE, AARON’S ROD=CHRIST, TRUE HIGH PRIEST, TEN COMMANDMENTS=CHRIST, TRUE WORD OF GOD.

[Ex25:8 And let them **make me a sanctuary; THAT I MAY DWELL AMONG THEM. 9 ACCORDING TO ALL THAT I SHEW THEE, after the pattern of the tabernacle, and the pattern of all the instruments thereof, even so shall ye make it. 10 And they shall make an ark of shittim wood: two cubits and a half shall be the length thereof, and a cubit and a half the breadth thereof, and a cubit and a half the height thereof. 11 And thou shalt OVERLAY IT WITH PURE GOLD, WITHIN AND WITHOUT shalt thou overlay it, and shalt make upon it a crown of gold round about. Ex25:40 And look that thou make them after their pattern, which was shewed thee in the mount.] The Old Testament Ark was not holy and untouchable, because it contained the ten commandments, manna or Aaron’s rod. It was holy and untouchabel by SIN, because God dwelt their among his people.

If the Lord wanted the ark of the old covenant, made by hands, made to exact pattern and specific detail, from acacia wood and covered inside and out with PURE GOLD, that he may dwell among us. How much more would he cover the flesh, body and soul, of the living ark of the new covenant, not made by hands, with the purity of the Holy Spirit inside and out, that he may dwell among us. Mary the living ark would contain, in her womb, the real living Word of God, CHRIST, the real living Bread of Life, CHRIST, and the real living High Priest, CHRIST, God’s presents. Not just symbols as the ark made by hands contained, but the actual realities. As our Lord says in [Ex25:22 And THERE I WILL MEET WITH THEE, and I WILL COMMUNE WITH THEE from ABOVE THE MERCY SEAT, from between the two cherubims which are upon the ark of the testimony, of all things which I will give thee in commandment unto the children of Israel.] KJV, Immaculate Conception