If Mary was the mother of God...

[jlhargus]

Hb9:4 which had the golden altar of incense and the gold-covered ark of the covenant. This ARK CONTAINED the gold jar of MANNA, AARON’S STAFF that had budded, and the stone TABLETS OF THE COVENANT.

Mary the living ark would contain, in her womb, the real living Word of God, CHRIST, the real living Bread of Life, CHRIST, and the real living High Priest, CHRIST. Not just symbols as the ark made by hands contained, but the actual realities. As our Lord says in Ex25:22 THERE, ABOVE THE COVER BETWEEN THE TWO CHERUBIM THAT ARE OVER THE ARK OF THE TESTIMONY, I WILL MEET WITH YOU AND GIVE YOU ALL MY COMMANDS FOR THE ISRAELITES.

2 MCABS 2:5 And when Jeremy came thither he found an hollow cave wherein he laid the tabernacle and the ark and the altar of incense and so stopped the door 6 And some of those that followed him came to mark the way but they could not find it 7 Which when Jeremy perceived he blamed them saying As for THAT PLACE IT SHALL BE UNKNOWN UNTILL THE TIME THAT GOD GATHER HIS PEOPLE again TOGETHER AND RECEIVE THEM UNTO MERCY. 8 THEN SHALL THE LORD SHEW THEM THESE THINGS AND THE GLORY OF THE LORD SHALL APPEAR AND THE CLOUD ALSO as it was shewed under Moses and as when Solomon desired that the place might be honourably sanctified

EX 40:34 Then** a cloud covered the tent of the congregation and the glory of the LORD filled the tabernacle** 35 And Moses was not able to enter into the tent of the congregation because the cloud abode thereon and the glory of the LORD filled the tabernacle

LK 1:35 And the angel answered and said unto her** The Holy Ghost shall come upon thee and the power of the Highest shall overshadow thee** therefore also that holy thing which shall be born of thee shall be called the Son of God

2 SAM 6:2 And David arose and went with all the people that were with him from Baale of Judah to bring up from thence the ark of God whose name is called by the name of the LORD of hosts that dwelleth between the cherubims

LK 1:39 **And Mary arose **in those days **and went **into the hill country with haste **into a city of Juda **

2 SAM 6:9 **And David was afraid **of the LORD that day and said How shall the ark of the LORD come to me?

LK 1:30 And the angel said unto her **Fear not Mary **for thou hast found favour with God

2 SAM 6:9 And David was afraid of the LORD that day and said How shall the ark of the LORD come to me?
LK 1:43 And whence is this to me that the mother of my Lord should come to me?

2 SAM 6:16 And as the ark of the LORD came into the city of David Michal Saul’s daughter looked through a window and saw king David leaping and dancing before the LORD and she despised him in her heart

LK 1:44 For lo as soon as the voice of thy salutation sounded in mine ears** the babe leaped in my womb for joy **

2 SAM 6:18 And as soon as David had made an end of offering burnt offerings and peace offerings** he blessed the people in the name of the LORD** of hosts

LK 1:45 And** blessed is she that believed **for there shall be a performance of those things which were told her from the Lord

2 SAM 6:11 And the ark of the LORD continued in the house of Obededom the Gittite three months: and the LORD blessed Obededom and all his household

LK 1:56 **And Mary abode with her about three months **and returned to her own house

 

[moondweller]

JL: [GEN 3:14 And the LORD God said unto the serpent Because thou hast done this thou art cursed… 15 And I will put ENMITY between THEE AND THE WOMAN and between THY SEED AND HER SEED it shall bruise thy head and thou shalt bruise his heel] God said, he would put ENMITY between THEE=Satan and THE WOMAN=Mary. HER SEED, women do not normally have seed, only men. Her seed would only come after her, yet God put enmity between Satan and the woman, Mary, before she conceived. Mary would always be at enmity with Satan, even at conception, otherwise she would have NOT been at enmity with Satan. She was never of Satan’s seed, therefore not under sin. Like Mary’s seed there was never a time when Mary or her SEED was not at enmity with Satan.

[ROM 8:6 For to be carnally minded is death but to be spiritually minded is life and peace 7 Because the CARNAL MIND IS ENMITY against God [Mary was always at enmity with Satan as God said I WILL PUT ENMITY BETWEEN THEE (SATAN) AND THE WOMAN (MARY).] JAS 4:6 But he giveth more grace. Wherefore he saith God resisteth the proud but GIVEGTH GRACE UNTO THE HUMBLE… [Wisdom1:4 Because wisdom will not enter a deceitful soul, nor dwell in a body enslaved to sin.]

[LK 1:46 And MARY SAID MY SOUL DOTH MAGNIFY THE LORD 47 And my spirit hath rejoiced in God my Saviour 48 For HE HATH REGARDED THE LOW ESTATE OF HIS HANDMAIDEN for behold from henceforth ALL GENERATIONS SHALL CALL ME BLESSED 49 For HE THAT IS MIGHTY HATH DONE TO ME GREAT THINGS and holy is his name. …52 He hath put down the mighty from their seats and EXALTED THEM OF LOW DEGREE]

[LK 1:28 And the angel came in unto her and said Hail thou that art HIGHLY FAVOURED the LORD IS WITH THEE blessed art thou among women 29 … 30 And the angel said unto her Fear not MARY for THOU HAST FOUND FAVOUR WITH GOD] Hail, the angel salutes Mary as a dignitary, or as one of importance. He calls her, Highly favoured or “full of grace”, Mary was in a state of grace and the Lord was already with her before the angel came. Usually angels are shown reverence, by one falling on their face, but this time an angel shows reverence to a person.]

In the garden of Eden, Satan spoke only to Eve, who was created without sin. Eve spoke to Adam and gave him the apple. Had Adam, the head of the human race, not eaten the apple we would still be in the Garden of Eden. Adam was head and represented all humanity, his sin caused the lose of the indwelling Holy Spirit for all humanity. It was thru Eve’s cooperation with Satan that sin entered the world. It is thru the new Eve, Mary, who was conceived without sin, who cooperated with God that salvation enters the world, thru Christ who is head and represents all humanity, as the new Adam.

CONTINUED:

The problem is that NONE of these assertions directly address the issue brought up in my post concerning the Catholic notion of the transmission of sin through the female ovum. Here’s the question: On what do you base this statement? How does an ovum transmit sin? Are you suggesting that the body (specifically, the female ovum) is the seat of sin? Scripture speaks nothing to Mary’s supposed “immaculate conception” (a doctrine of men based on the theory you postulate), yet it speaks clearly to the sinlessness of Christ (2 Cor. 5:21)."

One thing we do conspicuously notice in the Gospel records in respect to the conception of the sinless Christ is the absence of the involvement of a man - not the necessity of a “sinless ovum” (a nonbiblical concept). Scripture specifically states:Rom 5:12 “Therefore, just as through one man sin entered into the world, and death through sin, and so death spread to all men, because all sinned–” (i.e., in Adam).And then goes on to state:Rom 5:19 “For as through the one man’s disobedience the many were made sinners, even so through the obedience of the One the many will be made righteous” (i.e., through faith)Scripture does testify that sin, and death as its consequence, came into this world through the disobedience of “one man.” But nowhere does Scripture attribute the preservation of Christ’s"sinlessness" coming into this world to an “untarnished” ovum of a woman. Here’s “sonettegarbin’s” assertion:Are you aware of the fact of original sin - It was necessary that the ovum required for the embryo, the Son of God, the Son of man not to be genetically tarnished by original sin as in the case of all other human beings since the beginning of time…"We know, based on the Scriptures, that Christ was born of a virgin (she knew no man). But Scripture does not reveal that she herself was or needed to be, born without sin.

 

[MaryTeresa2]

Mary: “Full of Grace”

The Fathers of the Church taught that Mary received a number of distinctive blessings in order to make her a more fitting mother for Christ and the prototypical Christian (follower of Christ). These blessings included her role as the New Eve (corresponding to Christ’s role as the New Adam), her Immaculate Conception, her spiritual motherhood of all Christians, and her Assumption into heaven. These gifts were given to her by God’s grace. She did not earn them, but she possessed them nonetheless.

The key to understanding all these graces is Mary’s role as the New Eve, which the Fathers proclaimed so forcefully. Because she is the New Eve, she, like the New Adam, was born immaculate, just as the First Adam and Eve were created immaculate. Because she is the New Eve, she is mother of the New Humanity (Christians), just as the first Eve was the mother of humanity. And, because she is the New Eve, she shares the fate of the New Adam. Whereas the First Adam and Eve died and went to dust, the New Adam and Eve were lifted up physically into heaven.

Of particular interest in the following quotations from the Fathers are those that speak of Mary’s immaculate nature. We will all one day be rendered immaculate (sinless), but Mary, as the prototypical Christian, received this grace early. God granted her freedom from sin to make her a fitting mother for his Son.

Even before the terms “original sin” and “immaculate conception” had been defined, early passages imply the doctrines. Many works mention that Mary gave birth to Jesus without pain. But pain in childbearing is part of the penalty of original sin (Gen. 3:16). Thus, Mary could not have been under that penalty. By God’s grace, she was immaculate in anticipation of her Son’s redemptive death on the cross. The Church therefore describes Mary as “the most excellent fruit of redemption” (CCC 508).

Many things of God are Mysteries, if we try to analyze too far we lose the gift of Faith it would seem. God chose not to reveal all things. You are free to not believe as you wish.
This is what the Church teaches. The Church is guided by the Holy Spirit and therefore a teaching of this sort would not stand the tests of time, scrutiny, Faith…and the gates of hell… etc. Just as the many other Mysteries… recorded in Scripture and taught orally by Tradition.

 

[jlhargus]

The problem is that NONE of these assertions directly address the issue brought up in my post concerning the Catholic notion of the transmission of sin through the female ovum. Here’s the question: On what do you base this statement? How does an ovum transmit sin? Are you suggesting that the body (specifically, the female ovum) is the seat of sin? Scripture speaks nothing to Mary’s supposed “immaculate conception” (a doctrine of men based on the theory you postulate), yet it speaks clearly to the sinlessness of Christ (2 Cor. 5:21)."

One thing we do conspicuously notice in the Gospel records in respect to the conception of the sinless Christ is the absence of the involvement of a man - not the necessity of a “sinless ovum” (a nonbiblical concept). Scripture specifically states:Rom 5:12 “Therefore, just as through one man sin entered into the world, and death through sin, and so death spread to all men, because all sinned–” (i.e., in Adam).And then goes on to state:Rom 5:19 “For as through the one man’s disobedience the many were made sinners, even so through the obedience of the One the many will be made righteous” (i.e., through faith)Scripture does testify that sin, and death as its consequence, came into this world through the disobedience of “one man.” But nowhere does Scripture attribute the preservation of Christ’s"sinlessness" coming into this world to an “untarnished” ovum of a woman. Here’s “sonettegarbin’s” assertion:Are you aware of the fact of original sin - It was necessary that the ovum required for the embryo, the Son of God, the Son of man not to be genetically tarnished by original sin as in the case of all other human beings since the beginning of time…"We know, based on the Scriptures, that Christ was born of a virgin (she knew no man). But Scripture does not reveal that she herself was or needed to be, born without sin.

JL: It has to do with the fact that were the presents of God dwells, that dwelling must be PURE and sin cannot touch it. That’s why the ark could not be touched or entered. As ark of the NC Mary’s entire being was pure.

 

[moondweller]

JL: It has to do with the fact that were the presents of God dwells, that dwelling must be PURE and sin cannot touch it. That’s why the ark could not be touched or entered. As ark of the NC Mary’s entire being was pure.

Where in Scripture is Mary called the “arc of the N.C.”? Jesus didn’t inaugurate the N.C. until His death, and that through His sacrificial blood. Jesus Himself is not the covenant. Hence, there’s no such thing as an “ark of the N.C.” That covenant came through the shedding of blood and His death, not through a womb unto life. IOW, without His death there would have been no N.C.

 

[jlhargus]

Where in Scripture is Mary called the “arc of the N.C.”? Hence, there’s no such thing as an “ark of the N.C.”

JL: Well Kevin maybe you should start reading the scriptures instead of being spoon fed, traditions of men, in those so called bible studies.

[Rv11:19 And the temple of God was opened in heaven, and **THERE WAS SEEN in his temple THE ARK OF HIS TESTAMENT: and there were lightnings, and voices, and thunderings, and an earthquake, and great hail.] Isn’t Christ’s TESTAMENT the NC?

Jesus didn’t inaugurate the N.C. until His death, and that through His sacrificial blood. Jesus Himself is not the covenant.

JL: Who said Jesus was the covenant. I don’t know anyone who is that stupid, do you?

That covenant came through the shedding of blood and His death, not through a womb unto life. IOW, without His death there would have been no N.C.

JL: That shed BLOOD of the NC came first thru the WOMB, or gate of heaven Mary. the Mother of God. Otherwise God did not become flesh as Jn1:1 clearly says he did.

It is implied, as is the Trinity, in several scriptures, that Mary is ark of the New Covenant, Christ always refered to his mother as, woman. Do you suppose Luke or the Holy Spirit were not aware of the parallel scriptures in 2Sam6 and Lk1, was that just a coincidence. The early Church Fathers didn’t think so.

[And the temple of God was opened in heaven, and THERE WAS SEEN in his temple THE ARK OF HIS TESTAMENT: and there were lightnings, and voices, and thunderings, and an earthquake, and great hail. And THERE APPEARED A GREAT WONDER IN HEAVEN, A WOMAN CLOTHED WITH THE SUN, and the MOON UNDER HER FEET, and UPON HER HEAD A CROWN OF TWELVE STARS: And SHE BEING WITH CHILD CRIED, travailing in birth, and pained to be delivered. Rv11:19-Rv12:1-2] I’m guessing you know there are no chapters and verses in the inspired scriptures they were added as aids to locate passages.

Hb9:4 which had the golden altar of incense and the gold-covered ark of the covenant. This ARK CONTAINED the gold jar of MANNA, AARON’S STAFF that had budded, and the stone TABLETS OF THE COVENANT.

Mary the living ark would contain, in her womb, the real living Word of God, CHRIST, the real living Bread of Life, CHRIST, and the real living High Priest, CHRIST. Not just symbols as the ark made by hands contained, but the actual realities. As our Lord says in Ex25:22 THERE, ABOVE THE COVER BETWEEN THE TWO CHERUBIM THAT ARE OVER THE ARK OF THE TESTIMONY, I WILL MEET WITH YOU AND GIVE YOU ALL MY COMMANDS FOR THE ISRAELITES.

2 MCABS 2:5 And when Jeremy came thither he found an hollow cave wherein he laid the tabernacle and the ark and the altar of incense and so stopped the door 6 And some of those that followed him came to mark the way but they could not find it 7 Which when Jeremy perceived he blamed them saying As for THAT PLACE IT SHALL BE UNKNOWN UNTILL THE TIME THAT GOD GATHER HIS PEOPLE again TOGETHER AND RECEIVE THEM UNTO MERCY. 8 THEN SHALL THE LORD SHEW THEM THESE THINGS AND THE GLORY OF THE LORD SHALL APPEAR AND THE CLOUD ALSO as it was shewed under Moses and as when Solomon desired that the place might be honourably sanctified
EX 40:34 Then** a cloud covered the tent of the congregation and the glory of the LORD filled the tabernacle** 35 And Moses was not able to enter into the tent of the congregation because the cloud abode thereon and the glory of the LORD filled the tabernacle

LK 1:35 And the angel answered and said unto her** The Holy Ghost shall come upon thee and the power of the Highest shall overshadow thee** therefore also that holy thing which shall be born of thee shall be called the Son of God

2 SAM 6:2 And David arose and went with all the people that were with him from Baale of Judah to bring up from thence the ark of God whose name is called by the name of the LORD of hosts that dwelleth between the cherubims

LK 1:39 **And Mary arose **in those days **and went **into the hill country with haste **into a city of Juda **

2 SAM 6:9 **And David was afraid **of the LORD that day and said How shall the ark of the LORD come to me?

LK 1:30 And the angel said unto her **Fear not Mary **for thou hast found favour with God

2 SAM 6:9 And David was afraid of the LORD that day and said How shall the ark of the LORD come to me?
LK 1:43 And whence is this to me that the mother of my Lord should come to me?

2 SAM 6:16 And as the ark of the LORD came into the city of David Michal Saul’s daughter looked through a window and saw king David leaping and dancing before the LORD and she despised him in her heart

LK 1:44 For lo as soon as the voice of thy salutation sounded in mine ears** the babe leaped in my womb for joy **

2 SAM 6:18 And as soon as David had made an end of offering burnt offerings and peace offerings** he blessed the people in the name of the LORD** of hosts

LK 1:45 And** blessed is she that believed **for there shall be a performance of those things which were told her from the Lord

2 SAM 6:11 And the ark of the LORD continued in the house of Obededom the Gittite three months: and the LORD blessed Obededom and all his household

LK 1:56 **And Mary abode with her about three months **and returned to her own house

 

[Rumpelstiltskin]

Jlhargus, I’m sure you can speak with a better tone and not insult others in your attempt to prove your point. I myself am I trying too, to not undertake character assassinations.

As to your answer. I don’t get your drift…WHERE does it say that Mary was the Ark.

Please show a clear and direct verse, not quote sporadically to confuse everyone.

 

[sixofseven]

Jlhargus, I’m sure you can speak with a better tone and not insult others in your attempt to prove your point. I myself am I trying too, to not undertake character assassinations.

As to your answer. I don’t get your drift…WHERE does it say that Mary was the Ark.

Please show a clear and direct verse, not quote sporadically to confuse everyone.

Where’s the clear and direct verse that says everything needs a clear and direct verse?

In many circumstances it is the entire bible that is taken into consideration when defining a belief.
Eg:
Where is the clear and direct verse that says ‘trinity’?
Where is the clear and direct verse that says ‘bible’?

From the wonderful words of Steve Ray:

Luke weaves additional parallels into the story of Mary — types that could be overlooked if one is unfamiliar with the Old Testament. After Moses died, Joshua led the Israelites across the Jordan River into the Promised Land. Joshua established the Ark of the Covenant in Shiloh, where it stayed for more than 200 years. One day the Israelites were losing a battle with the Philistines, so they snatched the ark and rushed it to the front lines. The Philistines captured the ark, but it caused them great problems, so they sent it back to Israel (1 Sam. 5:1-6:12).

David went out to retrieve the ark (1 Sam 6:1-2). After a man named Uzzah was struck dead when he touched the ark, David was afraid and said, “How can the ark of the Lord come to me?” He left the ark in the hill country of Judea for three months. David danced and leapt in front of the ark and everyone shouted for joy. The house of Obededom, which had housed the ark, was blessed, and then David took the ark to Jerusalem (2 Sam. 6:9-14).

Compare David and the ark to Luke’s account of the Visitation:

In those days Mary arose and went with haste into the hill country, to a city of Judah, and she entered the house of Zechariah and greeted Elizabeth. And when Elizabeth heard the greeting of Mary, the babe leaped in her womb; and Elizabeth was filled with the Holy Spirit and she exclaimed with a loud cry, “Blessed are you among women, and blessed is the fruit of your womb! And why is this granted me, that the mother of my Lord should come to me? For behold, when the voice of your greeting came to my ears, the babe in my womb leaped for joy. And blessed is she who believed that there would be a fulfillment of what was spoken to her from the Lord” (Luke 1:39-45).
Here are the parallels:

Mary arose and went to the hill country of Judea. Ein Kerem (where Elizabeth lived) and Abu Ghosh (where the ark resided) are only a short walk apart. Mary and the ark were both on a journey to the same hill country of Judea.
When David saw the ark he rejoiced and said, “How can the ark of the Lord come to me?” Elizabeth uses almost the same words: “Why is this granted me, that the mother of my Lord should come to me?” Luke is telling us something — drawing our minds back to the Old Testament, showing us a parallel.
When David approached the ark he shouted out and danced and leapt in front of the ark. He was wearing an ephod, the clothing of a priest. When Mary, the Ark of the New Covenant, approached Elizabeth, John the Baptist leapt in his mother’s womb — and John was from the priestly line of Aaron. Both leapt and danced in the presence of the ark. The Ark of the Old Covenant remained in the house of Obed-edom for three months, and Mary remained in the house of Elizabeth for three months. The place that housed the ark for three months was blessed, and in the short paragraph in Luke, Elizabeth uses the word blessed three times. Her home was certainly blessed by the presence of the ark and the Lord within.
When the Old Testament ark arrived — as when Mary arrived — they were both greeted with shouts of joy. The word for the cry of Elizabeth’s greeting is a rare Greek word used in connection with Old Testament liturgical ceremonies that were centered around the ark and worship (cf. Word Biblical Commentary, 67). This word would flip on the light switch for any knowledgeable Jew.
The ark returns to its home and ends up in Jerusalem, where God’s presence and glory is revealed in the temple (2 Sam. 6:12; 1 Kgs. 8:9-11). Mary returns home and eventually ends up in Jerusalem, where she presents God incarnate in the temple (Luke 1:56; 2:21-22).
It seems clear that Luke has used typology to reveal something about the place of Mary in salvation history. In the Ark of the Old Covenant, God came to his people with a spiritual presence, but in Mary, the Ark of the New Covenant, God comes to dwell with his people not only spiritually but physically, in the womb of a specially prepared Jewish girl.

catholicculture.org/culture/library/view.cfm?id=6811&CFID=44376725&CFTOKEN=97627711

 

[John_Paul_Jones]

Where in Scripture is Mary called the “arc of the N.C.”? Jesus didn’t inaugurate the N.C. until His death, and that through His sacrificial blood. Jesus Himself is not the covenant. Hence, there’s no such thing as an “ark of the N.C.” That covenant came through the shedding of blood and His death, not through a womb unto life. IOW, without His death there would have been no N.C.

You’re right that Mary isn’t explicitly mentioned as: “Mary, the Ark of the New Covenant,” but it is hidden in the Bible through typology that foreshadows Mary as the Ark of the N.C. catholic.com/thisrock/2005/0510fea5.asp

Would you not agree Jesus not only taught truth, Jesus is Truth, (Jesus is the Way, the Truth, the Light.) wouldn’t it follow that Jesus is the New Covenant?

 

[sixofseven]

In case you don’t read the full article, I think part is important to post too:

The Old Testament tells us that one item was placed inside the Ark of the Old Covenant while in the Sinai wilderness: God told Moses to put the stone tablets with the Ten Commandments inside the ark (Deut. 10:3-5). Hebrews 9:4 informs us that two additional items were placed in the Ark: “a golden urn holding the manna, and Aaron’s rod that budded.” Notice the amazing parallels: In the ark was the law of God inscribed in stone; in Mary’s womb was the Word of God in flesh. In the ark was the urn of manna, the bread from heaven that kept God’s people alive in the wilderness; in Mary’s womb is the Bread of Life come down from heaven that brings eternal life. In the ark was the rod of Aaron, the proof of true priesthood; in Mary’s womb is the true priest. In the third century, St. Gregory the Wonder Worker said that Mary is truly an ark — “gold within and gold without, and she has received in her womb all the treasures of the sanctuary.”

While the apostle John was exiled on the island of Patmos, he wrote something that would have shocked any first-century Jew. The ark of the Old Covenant had been lost for centuries — no one had seen it for about 600 years. But in Revelation 11:19, John makes a surprising announcement: "Then God’s temple in heaven was opened, and the ark of his covenant was seen within his temple?’

At this point chapter 11 ends and chapter 12 begins. But the Bible was not written with chapter divisions — these were added in the twelfth century. When John penned these words, there was no division between chapters 11 and 12; it was a continuing narrative.

What did John say immediately after seeing the Ark of the Covenant in heaven? “And a great portent appeared in heaven, a woman clothed with the sun, with the moon under her feet, and on her head a crown of twelve stars; she was with child” (Rev. 12:1-2). The woman is Mary, the Ark of the Covenant, revealed by God to John. She was seen bearing the child who would rule the world with a rod of iron (Rev. 12:5). Mary was seen as the ark and as a queen.

But does this passage really refer to Mary? Some say the woman represents Israel or the Church, and certainly she does. John’s use of rich symbolism is well known, but it is obvious from the Bible itself that the woman is Mary. The Bible begins with a real man (Adam), a real woman (Eve), and a real serpent (the devil) — and it also ends with a real man (Jesus, the Last Adam [1 Cor. 15:45]), a real woman (Mary, the New Eve [Rev. 11:19-12:2]), and a real serpent (the devil of old). All of this was foretold in Genesis 3:15.

catholicculture.org/culture/library/view.cfm?id=6811&CFID=44376725&CFTOKEN=97627711

 

[John_Paul_Jones]

But does this passage really refer to Mary? Some say the woman represents Israel or the Church, and certainly she does. John’s use of rich symbolism is well known, but it is obvious from the Bible itself that the woman is Mary. **The Bible begins with a real man (Adam), a real woman (Eve), **and a real serpent (the devil) — and it also ends with a real man (Jesus, the Last Adam [1 Cor. 15:45]), a real woman (Mary, the New Eve [Rev. 11:19-12:2]), and a real serpent (the devil of old). All of this was foretold in Genesis 3:15.

Actually Eve is named first, then Cain, followed by Abel. Adam is only given a name when he fathers Seth.
(NB whether or not “fathers” is a verb or not - I don’t know, it’s late and I’m a bit tired)

 

[Tietjen]

Who says that He couldn’t have? Nothing is impossible for God. Had He chosen to bring salvation into the world another way He could have done so. But that is not what He chose to do.

As for the assumption that Mary being preserved from the stain of original sin “without or prior to Jesus”… Jesus was Mary’s Savior as well as yours and mine. Mary wasn’t preserved “without or prior” to Jesus, but rather “because” of Jesus. God doesn’t reside within time, He created it. Today is like tomorrow is like 100 years ago, is like a thousand years from now to God. He’s watching His son hang on the cross while at the same time, casting Adam and Eve out of the Garden, while at the same time watching you grow up as a child. He’s not confined to His creation (time). Therefore, God knew that Mary would be the mother of His son before she was conceived and “because” she was to be the new Ark, she was created without blemish in order to carry God’s new Covenant to man (His son Jesus Christ).

Actually, the Catholic Church was the original Christian Church. It’s not a denomination. To deny that would look silly in the face of 2000 years of recorded history. But putting that aside for a moment, I have given you MANY Bible verses which support Truth not ONLY coming from Scripture but also through Tradition as passed down by the Church. Why do you ignore these passages? Are they in error?

Well who do you turn to when you have a question concerning the Bible, faith, etc?

Rumpel,

Is there any chance that I can get you to answer my questions?

 

[moondweller]

JL: It has to do with the fact that were the presents of God dwells,

If that’s the case then the sinless Christ, the incarnate Son Himself, could not have come into this sinful world at all and live amongst sinful men. John writes concerning the sinless Christ, God Himself:1 John 1:1 “What was from the beginning, what we have heard, what we have seen with our eyes, what we have looked at and touched with our hands, concerning the Word of Life–”

that dwelling must be PURE and sin cannot touch it.

Then He Himself could NEVER be touched, even outside the womb. But that’s not the case, is it?

That’s why the ark could not be touched or entered. As ark of the NC Mary’s entire being was pure.

It’s a sad thing when men think having children makes a woman impure. Mary went on and had other children with Joseph - according to the Scriptures.

 

[moondweller]

JL: Well Kevin maybe you should start reading the scriptures instead of being spoon fed, traditions of men, in those so called bible studies.

Well, you should know that my isn’t “Kevin.” And as for Bible studies, I’ve taught many of them myself.

[Rv11:19 And the temple of God was opened in heaven, and **THERE WAS SEEN

in his temple THE ARK OF HIS TESTAMENT: and there were lightnings, and voices, and thunderings, and an earthquake, and great hail.] Isn’t Christ’s TESTAMENT the NC?Well, then according to you this would have to directly refer to Mary in heaven. But let’s see if it actually does.

JL: Who said Jesus was the covenant. I don’t know anyone who is that stupid, do you?

You all do every time you call Mary the “ark of the N.C.” Think, my friend, think!

JL: That shed BLOOD of the NC came first thru the WOMB, or gate of heaven Mary. the Mother of God. Otherwise God did not become flesh as Jn1:1 clearly says he did.

AGAIN, the N.C. was not inaugurated UNTIL His sacrificial death and the shedding of His blood. Prior to that event there was no N.C. It was not being carried in an “ark” for nine months.Heb 9:15-18 "*For this reason He is the mediator of a new covenant, so that, *since a death has taken place ** for the redemption of the transgressions that were {committed} under the first covenant, those who have been called may receive the promise of the eternal inheritance. For where a covenant is, there must of necessity be the death of the one who made it. For a covenant is valid {only} when men are dead, for it is never in force while the one who made it lives. Therefore even the first {covenant} was not inaugurated without blood."The N.C. was not inaugurated until the DEATH of Christ. Maybe you should join our “so-called” Bible studies.

It is implied, as is the Trinity, in several scriptures, that Mary is ark of the New Covenant,

It’s implied nowhere in Scripture. The word “Trinity” codifies what the Scriptures actually reveal: that the Father is God, the Son is God, and the Holy Spirit is God. Each revealed as Persons: Three Person, one God. But as for the N.C., Scripture reveals that it did not begin until the DEATH of Christ, not when He was conceived in the womb. He Himself is not the covenant.

Christ always refered to his mother as, woman. Do you suppose Luke or the Holy Spirit were not aware of the parallel scriptures in 2Sam6 and Lk1, was that just a coincidence. The early Church Fathers didn’t think so.

[And the temple of God was opened in heaven, and THERE WAS SEEN in his temple THE ARK OF HIS TESTAMENT: and there were lightnings, and voices, and thunderings, and an earthquake, and great hail. And THERE APPEARED A GREAT WONDER IN HEAVEN, A WOMAN CLOTHED WITH THE SUN, and the MOON UNDER HER FEET, and UPON HER HEAD A CROWN OF TWELVE STARS: And SHE BEING WITH CHILD CRIED, travailing in birth, and pained to be delivered. Rv11:19-Rv12:1-2] I’m guessing you know there are no chapters and verses in the inspired scriptures they were added as aids to locate passages.

None of this has to do with Mary. If you read the account of the “wonder” (better translated “sign”) carefully, you see that the “woman” there NEVER enters heaven. It’s the man child to whom she gives birth that is “caught up to God and to His throne” (Rev. 12:5). After that event the “woman” flees into the wilderness to be nourished for three and a half years (vs. 6). And when the dragon is thrown down to the earth, he persecutes the woman who gave birth to the man child that was caught up to God.(vs. 13). Both the dragon and the woman are ON EARTH. The woman in this chapter is national Israel and the heavenly “sign” tells of her persecution by the Antichrist in the latter days of this age. It’s in reference to the time of the “Day of the Lord” as revealed by the ancient Hebrew prophets in the O.T., the time of “Jacob’s trouble” (Jer. 30:7).

You Catholics like to use Rev. 12 as a proof text of Mary’s assumption into heaven. But as you can see, the woman in that heavenly “sign” is NEVER seen in heaven. Only the man child she births is caught up to God and to His throne. The “woman” remain on earth and her “offspring” is persecuted (vs. 17).

 

[moondweller]

You’re right that Mary isn’t explicitly mentioned as: “Mary, the Ark of the New Covenant,” but it is hidden in the Bible through typology that foreshadows Mary as the Ark of the N.C. catholic.com/thisrock/2005/0510fea5.asp

Would you not agree Jesus not only taught truth, Jesus is Truth, (Jesus is the Way, the Truth, the Light.) wouldn’t it follow that Jesus is the New Covenant?

No, Jesus Himself is not the New Covenant. He inaugurates it by His DEATH, by the shedding of His blood. And Mary has nothing to do with this. She could only at a distance look on.

 

[sonettegarbin]

On what do you base this statement? How does an ovum transmit sin? Are you suggesting that the body (specifically, the female ovum) is the seat of sin? Scripture speaks nothing to Mary’s supposed “immaculate conception” (a doctrine of men based on the theory you postulate), yet it speaks clearly to the sinless of Christ (2 Cor. 5:21).

1.) A look at human genetics and heredity may be in order here.

2.) The ovum comment is unworthy of you.

3.) Original sin is described not only as the death of the soul (Sess. V, can. ii), but as a “privation of justice that each male and female child contracts at its conception” (Sess. VI, cap. iii). ---- *The Council of Trent, although it did not make this solution obligatory by a definition, regarded it with favor and authorized its use (cf. Pallavicini, “Istoria del Concilio di Trento”, vii-ix). *

 

[sonettegarbin]

In case you don’t read the full article, I think part is important to post too:

The Old Testament tells us that one item was placed inside the Ark of the Old Covenant while in the Sinai wilderness: God told Moses to put the stone tablets with the Ten Commandments inside the ark (Deut. 10:3-5). Hebrews 9:4 informs us that two additional items were placed in the Ark: “a golden urn holding the manna, and Aaron’s rod that budded.” Notice the amazing parallels: In the ark was the law of God inscribed in stone; in Mary’s womb was the Word of God in flesh. In the ark was the urn of manna, the bread from heaven that kept God’s people alive in the wilderness; in Mary’s womb is the Bread of Life come down from heaven that brings eternal life. In the ark was the rod of Aaron, the proof of true priesthood; in Mary’s womb is the true priest. In the third century, St. Gregory the Wonder Worker said that Mary is truly an ark — “gold within and gold without, and she has received in her womb all the treasures of the sanctuary.”

While the apostle John was exiled on the island of Patmos, he wrote something that would have shocked any first-century Jew. The ark of the Old Covenant had been lost for centuries — no one had seen it for about 600 years. But in Revelation 11:19, John makes a surprising announcement: "Then God’s temple in heaven was opened, and the ark of his covenant was seen within his temple?’

At this point chapter 11 ends and chapter 12 begins. But the Bible was not written with chapter divisions — these were added in the twelfth century. When John penned these words, there was no division between chapters 11 and 12; it was a continuing narrative.

What did John say immediately after seeing the Ark of the Covenant in heaven? “And a great portent appeared in heaven, a woman clothed with the sun, with the moon under her feet, and on her head a crown of twelve stars; she was with child” (Rev. 12:1-2). The woman is Mary, the Ark of the Covenant, revealed by God to John. She was seen bearing the child who would rule the world with a rod of iron (Rev. 12:5). Mary was seen as the ark and as a queen.

But does this passage really refer to Mary? Some say the woman represents Israel or the Church, and certainly she does. John’s use of rich symbolism is well known, but it is obvious from the Bible itself that the woman is Mary. The Bible begins with a real man (Adam), a real woman (Eve), and a real serpent (the devil) — and it also ends with a real man (Jesus, the Last Adam [1 Cor. 15:45]), a real woman (Mary, the New Eve [Rev. 11:19-12:2]), and a real serpent (the devil of old). All of this was foretold in Genesis 3:15.

catholicculture.org/culture/library/view.cfm?id=6811&CFID=44376725&CFTOKEN=97627711

:extrahappy: :bounce: Thank you so much for this quote.

 

[Tomster]

In case you don’t read the full article, I think part is important to post too:

The Old Testament tells us that one item was placed inside the Ark of the Old Covenant while in the Sinai wilderness: God told Moses to put the stone tablets with the Ten Commandments inside the ark (Deut. 10:3-5). Hebrews 9:4 informs us that two additional items were placed in the Ark: “a golden urn holding the manna, and Aaron’s rod that budded.” Notice the amazing parallels: In the ark was the law of God inscribed in stone; in Mary’s womb was the Word of God in flesh. In the ark was the urn of manna, the bread from heaven that kept God’s people alive in the wilderness; in Mary’s womb is the Bread of Life come down from heaven that brings eternal life. In the ark was the rod of Aaron, the proof of true priesthood; in Mary’s womb is the true priest. In the third century, St. Gregory the Wonder Worker said that Mary is truly an ark — “gold within and gold without, and she has received in her womb all the treasures of the sanctuary.”

While the apostle John was exiled on the island of Patmos, he wrote something that would have shocked any first-century Jew. The ark of the Old Covenant had been lost for centuries — no one had seen it for about 600 years. But in Revelation 11:19, John makes a surprising announcement: "Then God’s temple in heaven was opened, and the ark of his covenant was seen within his temple?’

At this point chapter 11 ends and chapter 12 begins. But the Bible was not written with chapter divisions — these were added in the twelfth century. When John penned these words, there was no division between chapters 11 and 12; it was a continuing narrative.

What did John say immediately after seeing the Ark of the Covenant in heaven? “And a great portent appeared in heaven, a woman clothed with the sun, with the moon under her feet, and on her head a crown of twelve stars; she was with child” (Rev. 12:1-2). The woman is Mary, the Ark of the Covenant, revealed by God to John. She was seen bearing the child who would rule the world with a rod of iron (Rev. 12:5). Mary was seen as the ark and as a queen.

But does this passage really refer to Mary? Some say the woman represents Israel or the Church, and certainly she does. John’s use of rich symbolism is well known, but it is obvious from the Bible itself that the woman is Mary. The Bible begins with a real man (Adam), a real woman (Eve), and a real serpent (the devil) — and it also ends with a real man (Jesus, the Last Adam [1 Cor. 15:45]), a real woman (Mary, the New Eve [Rev. 11:19-12:2]), and a real serpent (the devil of old). All of this was foretold in Genesis 3:15.

catholicculture.org/culture/library/view.cfm?id=6811&CFID=44376725&CFTOKEN=97627711

 

[moondweller]

1.) A look at human genetics and heredity may be in order here.

2.) The ovum comment is unworthy of you.

3.) Original sin is described not only as the death of the soul (Sess. V, can. ii), but as a “privation of justice that each male and female child contracts at its conception” (Sess. VI, cap. iii). ---- *The Council of Trent, although it did not make this solution obligatory by a definition, regarded it with favor and authorized its use (cf. Pallavicini, “Istoria del Concilio di Trento”, vii-ix). *

Here’s what Scripture says:Rom 5:12 “Therefore, just as through one man sin entered into the world, and death through sin, and so death spread to all men, because all sinned–” (i.e., in Adam).Nor does Scripture state that original sin is contracted at conception. The sinful estate of all men is mystically connected, federally, to their identity with Adam and at the time he sinned in the Garden. The Son incarnated, took on humanity, but He is not connected to Adam and His fallen race; He is Himself revealed to be another Adam with a posterity of His own of men made (imputed) righteous “in Him” (Rom. 5:12-21).

 

[MaryTeresa2]

“Better to understand a little than to misunderstand a lot.”

Moondweller, may I respectfully inquire as to where you get your ideas from? On what authority do you speak? You seem to misunderstand so many things. It it intentional that you can’t or don’t or won’t grasp the many answers that have been given in these posts? You seem to have some odd ideas IMHO. May I inquire as to what the letters are that appear by your ‘religion’ statement on your profile?

You seem to have a way of jumping into each point and coming up with another sort of explanation, I’m not sure where that comes from? Has someone taught you these ideas? You say you teach Bible studies? How can this be? Where have you studied to be authorized to teach others the Bible? You seem to rely only upon the interpretation that you have of the Bible. You seem to have no concept of that teachings that were laid down in the years following Jesus’ mission on Earth, those that are written, recorded and taught orally and preached with the authority of the Holy Spirit.

Are your teachings discerned by the power of the Spirit? Can it be possible that you have some higher authority and the 2000 years of discernment done by the Catholic Church? Who did Jesus give the authority to preach to? What promises did Jesus make that the teachings would be supported?

Have you personally ever felt the power and the grace that comes from prayer that honors the Blessed Mother of Jesus, God Incarnate… The Word made Flesh? Mary, Mother of God in the form of Jesus the second person of the Trinity?

Your arguments have no power to them. You go around and around and yet you say nothing with meaning. IMHO.

I’m sorry but I’ve tried to read your posts and get something out of them, yet I can not. When I can feel the indwelling affirmation of the Holy Spirit regarding the teachings of the Church, I believe this to be the power of discernment, one of the gifts of the Spirit.

Can you say that your beliefs have the power of the Spirit behind them? Can you be filled with the Holy Spirit and yet be so closed to so much that has been presented to you here?

IMO your postings seem to want for a proof, a scientific backing for you to be able to believe. Am I wrong on that? Do you have a sense of the Mysteries of God? What is your bottom line beef with the statement that Mary is the Mother of God?

Have you ever prayed for the understanding of that statement to be revealed to you?

Do you believe in the concept of the Trinity?

At some point it seems necessary to stop with the dissection of each and every word or concept in a statement. We either learn something or we continue to argue our own ideas. With each post we argue another facet of the statements made yet you remain unconvinced that there is a sound reason that we believe in the statement that Mary is the Mother of God. And we remain firm in our belief that she is!

At what point does ‘proof’ trump ‘Faith’? “Blessed at they that have NOT seen and yet believe.”

What do we have to gain if we were to suddenly believe your point of view and say, OK Mary isn’t the mother of God??

Have you ever experienced what there is to gain by acknowledging the position of Holiness that we give to Mary? Have you ever had a relationship with Mary?

I just have to ask this… I can’t fathom where you are coming from. Dwelling on the moon, perhaps? I’m sorry but it seems to denote some extraterrestrial sort of thing… We seem to be rooted here on Earth and fix our eyes and hearts on Heaven, not sure about the moon thing.

Pardon me that my questions are all over the place and perhaps not well worded… I’ve just tried to bring up what comes to mind when I read your posts. I intend no offense, but your ideas are very confusing.

My beliefs have the peaceful ring of ‘knowing’ within my heart, ‘wisdom’ if you will… I just can’t apply that to many of your arguments.

Maybe you can find a way to convince me of your authority and correctness.

Peace of Our Lord Jesus Christ and of Our Blessed Mother be with you… and the Power of the Holy Spirit…

Sincerely,
Mary Teresa, OSSM

PS, and please no more cut and paste of Scripture as answers… that’s not an explanation. Scripture out of context cut and pasted tends to be endless. I just asked more in a personl context so that I may begin to understand. Thank you.