If Matriarchy & Feminism Are Sinful, Why Isn't There More Of It?

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Allegra said:
Besides that, I don’t think that those who feel that women’s legal rights should be abolished are “signifigant” either in number or in influence. There are many who believe that a Catholic woman should willingly submit to her husband, but that’s her own husband, (they guy she chose to marry, suposedly of her own free will) That doesn’t mean the same people believe that all women should be politically inferior to all men in society at large.
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Perhaps…

I admit that when someone says men should be the unquestioned head/master of their household I (and most Feminists) tend to suspect that such a person also wants men (generally speaking) to be the masters of women in general.

Probably because there are still so many people in the world (the Middle Eastern Muslims would be the most prominent of them) who believe, practice, and advocate a form of patriarchy that does demean women and reduce them to a status of inferiority. When you factor in the fact that Western societies also treated women as though they were inferior up until recently (in history terms), its easy to see why Feminists and their allies would be suspicious of those that declare men must be the masters of their home.
 
AngryAtheist8 said:
This thread was never about the current official Catholic Church position.
It was specifically addressed to those that think women in power is somehow ungodly.
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I see! I must have gotten lost in all the twist and turns.

so is there anyone on this thread who thinks that women in power is somehow ungodly?
 
AngryAtheist8 said:
This thread was never about the current official Catholic Church position.
It was specifically addressed to those that think women in power is somehow ungodly.
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It took a rather long time to get to that point, but now that we’ve established that we aren’t arguing a valid church teaching but a political point of view, what are the arguements of that point of view? I dont’t think there is any Biblical basis for denying a woman power over herself. If she doesn’t have that freedom, according to Natural Law, then what benefit is there to her giving herself to her husband and family, to her church, or to those in need? Therefore, I would argue that it is absolutely a Christian belief that no law should infringe upon the right of a woman to have the same legal power over herself that men do.
Actually, I think it’s a neccesity in a civilized society.
As far as women having financial or political power, I don’t see how that is contrary to the Bible. I could see an arguement perhaps in a specific situation, like if the job is taking up all of the woman’s time and she isn’t able to be an effective mother or wife, but that is specific to the person, not the idea in general. Some women who have a talent for politics may elect not to marry at all and instead stand up for justice in the courts. What would be wrong with that? Women who are married have to balance their family and work just as men do, however, a woman may be able to serve her family a great deal by political activity, as well as the rest of the community. I’d be interested to know what sort of arguements, if any, someone might have agaisnt a Christian woman holding an office or position of power.
 
AngryAtheist8 said:
Here is someone defending theological (Christian) patriarchy in its pure form.

This sort of* reasoning *has been used to put down women for centuries, and is why Feminists tend to dislike and distrust most forms of Christianity.
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Judging by the shortness of the quote and their name, I doubt they were serious anyway.
 
Allegra said:
I’m not angry. I’m simply trying to explain a different interpretation of that scripture you were referencing. I wasn’t trying to suggest that you felt anyone was unentitled to their views, I was simply offering a different conclusion than the one you’ve come to, based on the same scripture.
I also attempted to demonstrate how the “non-submissive” wife scenario often plays out in our society. There’s no need to go into the details of sexual frustration, except to acknowlege that many people automatically assume it is the underlining cause of many marital problems when actually it might be more of a symptom of an inability to trust, to be intimate, or to “submit” to one’s spouse. I didn’t mean to express anger, but to illustrate some of the problems with the secular family model today and to suggest that maybe good 'ole Saint Paul might have actually known what he was talking about.
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I have read quite a bit on this after joining CAF. I had never thought any Catholics today take the position of the submission of wives to husbands. That has never ever been raised among my Christian family and relatives. The equal partnerships with give and take have worked well. I believe trust is important in any marriage. To me it is about mutual submission and consideration for each other.
 
AngryAtheist8 said:
Originally Posted by AngryAtheist8
So women naturally assume power through behind the scenes manipulation:rolleyes:

That sounds an awful lot like a (snarky) yes.
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snarky questions usually get snarky answers.

women manipulate men so well they don’t even know they are being manipulated. 😃
 
severus68 said:
I have read quite a bit on this after joining CAF. I had never thought any Catholics today take the position of the submission of wives to husbands. That has never ever been raised among my Christian family and relatives. The equal partnerships with give and take have worked well. I believe trust is important in any marriage. To me it is about mutual submission and consideration for each other.
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That is a reasonable conclusion. Remember, that same passage begins with the statement, “Submit to one another.” It then goes on to explain how each partner in the marriage is to do so. Saint Paul didn’t say, “wives submit to your husbands, husbands can just go nuts.” There are expectations for both partners in a Christian marriage. The problem with our current society is that we seem to believe it is pure slavery to submit to anyone at any time, even out of love. “Dont’ get pushed around.” seems to be the mantra of the times and love is confused with co-dependence. This doesn’t work well in a family, as is suggested by our staggering divorce rate.
 
vsedriver said:
I see! I must have gotten lost in all the twist and turns.

so is there anyone on this thread who thinks that women in power is somehow ungodly?
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The short answer is yes.

Although its a bit more complicated than that. Its mainly been people saying or implying that it is not that important for women to have legal rights or protections because good Godly men wouldn’t abuse them anyway.

I have tried pointing out that a very large percentage of men aren’t that good and/or Godly. But it has been dismissed by such posters as an unimportant detail.
 
AngryAtheist8 said:
The short answer is yes.

Although its a bit more complicated than that. Its mainly been people saying or implying that it is not that important for women to have legal rights or protections because good Godly men wouldn’t abuse them anyway.

I have tried pointing out that a very large percentage of men aren’t that good and/or Godly. But it has been dismissed by such posters as an unimportant detail.
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I don’t think anyone said that though. (Except for H88ter and I think he was just trying to stir the pot.)
 
AngryAtheist8 said:
Unfortunately there is a significant number of Catholics who think that women should have no power and few (if any) legal rights. Here’s a link to such a group explaining their views: catholicplanet.com/women/roles.htm
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I followed the link and read the entire “article”. The only response I have is “WOW”, can there be any intelligent person who actually believes what is written there? It is possible to use Biblical quotes to frame almost any sane or “insane” argument you might have in relation to everyday life - thankfully the Vatican does not share the views posted on the Catholic Planet website!😉
 
AngryAtheist8 said:
Perhaps…

I admit that when someone says men should be the unquestioned head/master of their household I (and most Feminists) tend to suspect that such a person also wants men (generally speaking) to be the masters of women in general.

Probably because there are still so many people in the world (the Middle Eastern Muslims would be the most prominent of them) who believe, practice, and advocate a form of patriarchy that does demean women and reduce them to a status of inferiority. When you factor in the fact that Western societies also treated women as though they were inferior up until recently (in history terms), its easy to see why Feminists and their allies would be suspicious of those that declare men must be the masters of their home.
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I would urge you to consider the possibility that the vast majority of Christian women in western society who acknowlege the need to submit to their husbands do NOT wish to be mastered by other men to whom they have not made wedding vows. Frankly, I think it a more realistic frame of reference. Personally, I barely have enough submission in me for that!
Furthermore, I propose that most men of a Christian/Western background lack the patience, initiative, and desire to have responsibility over more than one woman.

I don’t know much about Muslims but in Islamic countries it is my understanding that women are subservient by law, not their own will. This is an entirely different scenario and in my opinion is of no benefit to anyone.

(I broke it up into small chunks especially for you, AA!)
 
kozlosap said:
I followed the link and read the entire “article”. The only response I have is “WOW”, can there be any intelligent person who actually believes what is written there? It is possible to use Biblical quotes to frame almost any sane or “insane” argument you might have in relation to everyday life - thankfully the Vatican does not share the views posted on the Catholic Planet website!😉
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Mr. Conte is a poor theologian, I have to say. He has no substantial credentials and his work is not validated by the church. That website should have a giant IMO posted at the top of every page, because his opinion is all that is.
 
AngryAtheist8 said:
So women are meant to be manipulative then?
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One should probably strive to avoid such things. It’s not going to help your relationship in the long run, however, it does seem that some women are born manipulators. I see that in my friendships and work relationships alot. I don’t really see the same in men, but then again, maybe they’re so good at it, we don’t even know they’re doing it!
 
Allegra said:
Do tell.
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Here are some quotes from Church Fathers, saints, and prominent Catholic theologians to give you an idea of what I am talking about:

As regards the individual nature, woman is defective and misbegotten, for the active power of the male seed tends to the production of a perfect likeness in the masculine sex; while the production of a woman comes from defect in the active power.
-Saint Thomas Aquinas

Woman is a necessary evil, a natural temptation, a desirable calamity, a domestic peril, a deadly fascination, and a painted ill.
-Saint John Chrysostom

Woman is the daughter of falsehood, a sentinel of hell, the enemy of peace.
-Saint John of Damascus

To embrace a woman is to embrace a sack of manure.
-Saint Odo of Cluny

Woman, thou shouldst ever be clothed in rags and in mourning, appearing only as a penitent, drowned in tears, and expiating thus the sin of having caused the fall of the human race. Woman thou art the gate of the devil. It is thou who hast corrupted those whom Satan dare not attack face to face.
-Tertullian
 
AngryAtheist8 said:
Here are some quotes from Church Fathers, saints, and prominent Catholic theologians to give you an idea of what I am talking about:

As regards the individual nature, woman is defective and misbegotten, for the active power of the male seed tends to the production of a perfect likeness in the masculine sex; while the production of a woman comes from defect in the active power.
-Saint Thomas Aquinas

Woman is a necessary evil, a natural temptation, a desirable calamity, a domestic peril, a deadly fascination, and a painted ill.
-Saint John Chrysostom

Woman is the daughter of falsehood, a sentinel of hell, the enemy of peace.
-Saint John of Damascus

To embrace a woman is to embrace a sack of manure.
-Saint Odo of Cluny

Woman, thou shouldst ever be clothed in rags and in mourning, appearing only as a penitent, drowned in tears, and expiating thus the sin of having caused the fall of the human race. Woman thou art the gate of the devil. It is thou who hast corrupted those whom Satan dare not attack face to face.
-Tertullian
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These are all clearly taken out of context. Only the first one is reasonably objectionable. The second and third are speaking of lust for a woman, not the nature of woman kind. I’m not really sure what Saint Odo was talking about, but I expect it has to do with lust as well. He was probably trying to compare sex to the joy he experienced from his religious calling or something like that. The last guy was clearly speaking to Eve in poetic terms, not all women. Notice he says “woman” not “women”.
 
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