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Valke2
Guest
ok. same answer. Although with the caveat that it may have been an honorific title given to particularly righteous jews who were thought to be close with God. i.e. the prophets.
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inJESUS
Guest
if Christians are idolators because they consider son of God = God, then Jews are idolators because they consider Ezra son of God = God.
either both take son of God = God
or both take the son of God = spiritual term
the second interpretation is the correct one hence Muhammad, again, was wrong.
PS: if, and if some Jews considered Ezra God, then they must have been such a minority that no one heard of. Christians who believe Jesus is God are a majority. Hence putting both beliefs on the same level is , again, wrong .
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meedo
Guest
You are forcing your understanding on Islam . Its like saying that If athiets will go to hell then every body who goes to hell muct be athiest !!!
There has been many sects and minority groups in every religion. The problem that God have is with some one elevating a creature to the status of divinity. All Christians do that with Jesus today , a fringe group of jews did that in the old past . Heck even some group of people who cal themselves muslims do that till this day and they worship Ali a relkative of the prophet Muhammed . Ofcourse they are pagan idol worshippers just like the pagans of Old mecca .
Muhammed Had nothing wrong. Its your understanding of the verse that you are trying to force it on us and islam that is wrong InJesus. It doesnt mean that if you didnt hear of a certain group that it didnt exist.
and as i explained before from Surat al fatiha, Islam regards modern day christians as idol worshippers and not jews .
hope that helps
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Valke2
Guest
The likely answer is that no jews ever considered Ezra God. And I’m not trying to put both beliefs on the same level. And I don’t think Christians are considered (by jews) as idolaters.
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Booklover
Guest
So, what’s the next step: DEATH TO ALL CHRISTIANS, ALLAHU AKBAR!
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meedo
Guest
No. Your account will be with God and not us. Our duty is to tell you about Islam.So, what’s the next step: DEATH TO ALL CHRISTIANS, ALLAHU AKBAR!
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inJESUS
Guest
hehe calm downSo, what’s the next step: DEATH TO ALL CHRISTIANS, ALLAHU AKBAR!
no Meedo am not forcing anything…i took the passage from many perspectives, including the Islamic ones, and it just does not fit…the idea of idolatory as per Muhammad is wrong because son of God, again, is a spiritual term. If it means that saying Jesus or Ezra is believed to be God by some, then fine, but this, as well, is not idolatory. You can say no i don’t believe God took a human body and remained God, but you simply can’t say it is idolary because we neither believe in 3 gods nor do we assiciate partners with God as Muhammad said. The Shema applies to us as well; if Muhammad did not understand this, it’s not our problem…it is a further proof that Muhammad did not understand what he is talking about. Valke2 is a Jew , and he clearly said that he does not believe Jesus is God, but the idea per se is not idolatory as he said.
More than all this, the question how can Allah have a son if he has no consort is in itself a proof that whoever wrote the Quran, he did not understand what he’s talking about.
you are here to teach Islam, fine. But the monotheism you preach is not new to us and Muhammad did bring nothing new, on the contrary, he mentioned Jesus but gave a blind eye to His New Covenant which is a step back, not forward. I by no means believe God sent a perfect “prophet” Jesus and asked me to imitate him, and then a much dubious character both in morality and sources. God does not lie, and His word is preserved…i don’t need Muhammad tell me that God lied to me, thank you
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Joseph_Alison
Guest
Salaam Vickie;
Booklover:
DEATH TO ALL CHRISTIANS, No.
CONNECT WITH ALL CHRISTIANS, Yes.
CHRISTIANS CONNECT WITH MUSLIMS, Yes, if they want to.
[060.007] It may be that Allah will grant love (and friendship) between you and those whom ye (now) hold as enemies. For Allah has power (over all things); And Allah is Oft-Forgiving, Most Merciful.
[060.008] Allah forbids you not, with regard to those who fight you not for (your) Faith nor drive you out of your homes, from dealing kindly and justly with them: for Allah loveth those who are just.
[060.009] Allah only forbids you, with regard to those who fight you for (your) Faith, and drive you out of your homes, and support (others) in driving you out, from turning to them (for friendship and protection). It is such as turn to them (in these circumstances), that do wrong.
Vickie;
To some point, most of us are just following our parents’ religion and holding it to be the absolute truth.
Let us suppose a person “X” who is born into a religion “Y”, holds the truth because the religion he is born into is the truth. Wasn’t “X” favoured by God to have him born into the truth?
What’s the fault of all the other people who did not have the same chance “X” had to be born into that religion?
Should “X”, in answer to the favor God bestowed on him (to have him born into the truth), hate and kill all the others who did not have the same chance as him?
Is it a way to say thank you God for doing me that favor (having me born into the truth), I am going in exchange and to thank you for your favor, I am going to kill all those to whom you did not give the same chance You gave me!
Should not be better for “X” to be thankful to God and by doing his best to extend the “truth” to those who did not have the same chance he had?
“X” could be anyone, of any religion. Everyone thinks his religion is the truth. If everyone reachs to the others and share “his” truth with them in a spirit to thank “his” God for having given him a chance many others did not have, we would be all living in peace.
The benefit from these forums is that they open to “X”, to challenge others to explain what they think is their “truth” and also try to understand other by challenging them with questions and viewpoints. There is no need to go further than this and if people can’t do it in a charitable manner we’ve got a problem.
Remember, Takkiyah! I am good at it.
Take care.
Salaam.
Joseph.
ALLAHU AKBAR, Yes.So, what’s the next step: DEATH TO ALL CHRISTIANS, ALLAHU AKBAR!
DEATH TO ALL CHRISTIANS, No.
CONNECT WITH ALL CHRISTIANS, Yes.
CHRISTIANS CONNECT WITH MUSLIMS, Yes, if they want to.
[060.007] It may be that Allah will grant love (and friendship) between you and those whom ye (now) hold as enemies. For Allah has power (over all things); And Allah is Oft-Forgiving, Most Merciful.
[060.008] Allah forbids you not, with regard to those who fight you not for (your) Faith nor drive you out of your homes, from dealing kindly and justly with them: for Allah loveth those who are just.
[060.009] Allah only forbids you, with regard to those who fight you for (your) Faith, and drive you out of your homes, and support (others) in driving you out, from turning to them (for friendship and protection). It is such as turn to them (in these circumstances), that do wrong.
Vickie;
To some point, most of us are just following our parents’ religion and holding it to be the absolute truth.
Let us suppose a person “X” who is born into a religion “Y”, holds the truth because the religion he is born into is the truth. Wasn’t “X” favoured by God to have him born into the truth?
What’s the fault of all the other people who did not have the same chance “X” had to be born into that religion?
Should “X”, in answer to the favor God bestowed on him (to have him born into the truth), hate and kill all the others who did not have the same chance as him?
Is it a way to say thank you God for doing me that favor (having me born into the truth), I am going in exchange and to thank you for your favor, I am going to kill all those to whom you did not give the same chance You gave me!
Should not be better for “X” to be thankful to God and by doing his best to extend the “truth” to those who did not have the same chance he had?
“X” could be anyone, of any religion. Everyone thinks his religion is the truth. If everyone reachs to the others and share “his” truth with them in a spirit to thank “his” God for having given him a chance many others did not have, we would be all living in peace.
The benefit from these forums is that they open to “X”, to challenge others to explain what they think is their “truth” and also try to understand other by challenging them with questions and viewpoints. There is no need to go further than this and if people can’t do it in a charitable manner we’ve got a problem.
Remember, Takkiyah! I am good at it.
Take care.
Salaam.
Joseph.
A
Angelos
Guest
Hi JosephSalaam;
Any belief has to start from a person of a group of person.
The son of God belief started with a “part” of the Nasara and spread by birth and other means, to later give what is called the Christians. Allah (SWT) talked about that part of the Narasa who were at the origin of the Son of God belief.
The verse proves to us Muslims that Jesus was never called son of God during his lifetime, but that the belief was a late introduction by a “part” of the Nasara. That part bears the responsibility of such an innovation and the Christians who embraced that belief by birth or otherwise will be judged by Allah (SWT) accordingly.
Salaam.
Joseph.
Joseph, I think you are reading into the Quran verse what is not there. What makes you think that 9:31 talks of a blasphemous minor group of Christians and Jews attributing the honorary title of “son” to Uzair and Christ in early Jewish and Christian history? Can you tell us when those groups arose in mainstream Judaism and Christianity and when they uttered a blasphemy that gradually turned into the fundamental tenet of Christianity, but was condemned and denied by Judaism?
What I infer from the Quran after my comparative study of the verses having the same sentence structure “some Jews and Christians said” (kaaletil…) is that the Quran is not concerned with what a minor group said in the past, but with how an utterance mirrors the current tenets of Judaism and Christianity. First, the Islamic scripture recurrently quotes throughout the chapters of the late Medina period what Jews and Christians said:
**005: 64 **The Jews said (kaaletilyahudu) : “Allah’s hand is tied up.” Be their hands tied up and be they accursed for the (blasphemy) they utter. Nay both His hands are widely outstretched: He giveth and spendeth (of His bounty) as He pleaseth. But the revelation that cometh to thee from Allah increaseth in most of them their obstinate rebellion and blasphemy. Amongst them We have placed enmity and hatred till the Day of Judgment.
**002: 113 **The Jews said (kaletilyahudu): “The Christians have naught (to stand) upon”; and the Christians said (kaletinnesara): “The Jews have naught (to stand) upon.” Yet they study the (same) Book. Like unto their word is what those say who know not; but Allah will judge between them in their quarrel on the Day of Judgment.
In another verse we see that Allah asks Mohammed to challenge Jews and Christians because of what they say:
**005: 18 **(Both) the Jews and the Christians said (kaaletilyahudu vennasara) : “We are sons of Allah, and His beloved.” Say: "Why then doth He punish you for your sins? Nay, ye are but men, of the men He hath created: He forgiveth whom He pleaseth, and He punisheth whom He pleaseth: and to Allah belongeth the dominion of the heavens and the earth, and all that is between: and unto Him is the final goal (of all).
What all these have in common is that they claim to give an immediate response to the Jews and Christians making an utterance. Thus, it is clear that these sentences are uttered during a debate between Mohammed and people of the Book. Accordingly, the writers of the Quran use a feminine verb with a masculine noun so as to distinguish all Jews and Christians from those disputing with Mohammed. Since it was unthinkable for Mohammed to talk to all Christians and Jews in the world, his scribes wrote, “some Jews and some Christians said”, implying that the word “some” referred to the group of Christians and Jews that discussed with Mohammed their fundamental tenets, rather than a minor sect. Let’s read the sentence ensuing the one accusing Jews and Christians of blasphemy:
“That is a saying from their mouth; (in this) they but imitate what the Unbelievers of old used to say.”
Apparently, this sentence makes a comparison between the disbelievers of the past and present, regarding Jews and Christians as the representative of idolaters in Mohammed’s period. Finally, let’s read the last sentence of the same verse addressing Jews and Christians of Mohammed’s time:
“Allah’s curse be on them: how they are deluded away from the Truth!”
Mohammed puts a curse on Jews and Christians of his time, which we know through the use of the present tense in this sentence.
to be continued…
A
Angelos
Guest
continuing from above
Besides, I shall never let my arguments go unnoticed because of the debate about some versus all. The second verse I quoted from the Quran accuses Jews and Christians (all of them!) of making partners to Allah in Mohammed’s time. Thus, it is not true that the Islamic scripture blames only Christians for idolatry! Both Jews and Christians are definitely claimed to be idolaters in the ninth chapter, which belongs to the late Medina period and is concerned with what Jews and Christians of the 7th century say, rather than what an unknown heretic group in Judaism said in distant past.
Question: why does the Quran charge both Christians and Jews simultaneously with idolatry at such a late time of the alleged revelation?
Answer: Because the Quran wants to justify the necessity for declaring war on even the People of the Book! The verse in question does not make discrimination between pagans and the People of the Book on the basis of a religious war. This is why the verse preceding the one with the charge against Jews and Christians asks Muslims to humiliate the People of the Book through jihads. The place of the verse is not a coincidence when the thematic unity of the chapter is taken into account!
009: 29 Fight those who believe not in Allah nor the Last Day, nor hold that forbidden which hath been forbidden by Allah and His Messenger, nor acknowledge the Religion of Truth, from among the People of the Book, until they pay the Jizya with willing submission, and feel themselves subdued.
Salaam Meedo,
I see that you have not quit attacking my character rather than my arguments yet! Who are you to judge my faith before conversion? Please find another tactic! Sorry to say, you have to take lessons from Joseph Alison in order to learn how to write posts with dignity and maturity. Salaam to you.
Glory to God in the highest & peace to His people on earth
Besides, I shall never let my arguments go unnoticed because of the debate about some versus all. The second verse I quoted from the Quran accuses Jews and Christians (all of them!) of making partners to Allah in Mohammed’s time. Thus, it is not true that the Islamic scripture blames only Christians for idolatry! Both Jews and Christians are definitely claimed to be idolaters in the ninth chapter, which belongs to the late Medina period and is concerned with what Jews and Christians of the 7th century say, rather than what an unknown heretic group in Judaism said in distant past.
Question: why does the Quran charge both Christians and Jews simultaneously with idolatry at such a late time of the alleged revelation?
Answer: Because the Quran wants to justify the necessity for declaring war on even the People of the Book! The verse in question does not make discrimination between pagans and the People of the Book on the basis of a religious war. This is why the verse preceding the one with the charge against Jews and Christians asks Muslims to humiliate the People of the Book through jihads. The place of the verse is not a coincidence when the thematic unity of the chapter is taken into account!
009: 29 Fight those who believe not in Allah nor the Last Day, nor hold that forbidden which hath been forbidden by Allah and His Messenger, nor acknowledge the Religion of Truth, from among the People of the Book, until they pay the Jizya with willing submission, and feel themselves subdued.
Salaam Meedo,
I see that you have not quit attacking my character rather than my arguments yet! Who are you to judge my faith before conversion? Please find another tactic! Sorry to say, you have to take lessons from Joseph Alison in order to learn how to write posts with dignity and maturity. Salaam to you.
Glory to God in the highest & peace to His people on earth
I
inJESUS
Guest
005: 18 (Both) the Jews and the Christians said (kaaletilyahudu vennasara) : “We are sons of Allah, and His beloved.” Say: "Why then doth He punish you for your sins? Nay, ye are but men, of the men He hath created: He forgiveth whom He pleaseth, and He punisheth whom He pleaseth: and to Allah belongeth the dominion of the heavens and the earth, and all that is between: and unto Him is the final goal (of all).
:bigyikes: another proof Muhammad did not understand what son of God means in Judeo-Christian context
:bigyikes: another proof Muhammad did not understand what son of God means in Judeo-Christian context
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meedo
Guest
Actually this prooves my point. I was going to paste this verse but you beat me to it. In this verse God tells the jews and the christians that they arent favoured among the people of the earth. It is not because The Jewish race that jews are ONLY favoured by God Nor Just because Christians followed Jesus then they are the favoured ones. The concept is that people are loved if they believe in God proper solid obedient belief no matter what they call them selves to be and it is not a monopoly by one group or the other.005: 18 (Both) the Jews and the Christians said (kaaletilyahudu vennasara) : “We are sons of Allah, and His beloved.” Say: "Why then doth He punish you for your sins? Nay, ye are but men, of the men He hath created: He forgiveth whom He pleaseth, and He punisheth whom He pleaseth: and to Allah belongeth the dominion of the heavens and the earth, and all that is between: and unto Him is the final goal (of all).
:bigyikes: another proof Muhammad did not understand what son of God means in Judeo-Christian context
This is what this verse means. Here you can see that God used the ‘‘Sons of God’’ as honorary and not literal . Because of every group trying to boast by their chosenness by God as the true believers and the torch bearers. The two groups werent trying to all establish that they are all a physical sons of God.
This verse proves that the Quran akcnowledges that the use of the word son fo God can be honorary or taken literally. In the first case it is no problem . In the seconfd case it is idolatry.
In Jesus look at the definition of Idolatry from wikipedia
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Idolatry
''Idolatry is a major sin in the Abrahamic religions regarding image. In Judaism and Christianity it is defined as worship of an image, idea or object, as opposed to the worship of a supreme being. In Islam, the creation of imagery itself as well as its worship would amount to idolatry. ‘’
Thus if yoiu worship Jesus instead of God then you are an idolatrer. In the eye of an Orthodox Jew who believes in the God of Moses is different than the Rabbi Jesus son of Mary you are an Idolatrer. Because you worship a different diety than the God of Moses. No matter how great this diety was .
Guys, in all honesty i thought you could do better than that . What i am seeing now is that every one get his OWN interpretation of a verse in the Quran and condemns it!!! Well , be my guest!!! Unless you can prove that your interpretation is the mainstream interpretation by muslims then you can interpret anything the way you want and it wont be of any value.
All i can see here is prople trying to show off infront of other Christins as if ythey know it all about Islam!!
If that is the quality of missionary work you guys know then i am really happy.
meedo
M
meedo
Guest
i dont need to attack your arguments angelos , they are attacking themselves!!!continuing from above
Besides, I shall never let my arguments go unnoticed because of the debate about some versus all. The second verse I quoted from the Quran accuses Jews and Christians (all of them!) of making partners to Allah in Mohammed’s time. Thus, it is not true that the Islamic scripture blames only Christians for idolatry! Both Jews and Christians are definitely claimed to be idolaters in the ninth chapter, which belongs to the late Medina period and is concerned with what Jews and Christians of the 7th century say, rather than what an unknown heretic group in Judaism said in distant past.
Question: why does the Quran charge both Christians and Jews simultaneously with idolatry at such a late time of the alleged revelation?
Answer: Because the Quran wants to justify the necessity for declaring war on even the People of the Book! The verse in question does not make discrimination between pagans and the People of the Book on the basis of a religious war. This is why the verse preceding the one with the charge against Jews and Christians asks Muslims to humiliate the People of the Book through jihads. The place of the verse is not a coincidence when the thematic unity of the chapter is taken into account!
009: 29 Fight those who believe not in Allah nor the Last Day, nor hold that forbidden which hath been forbidden by Allah and His Messenger, nor acknowledge the Religion of Truth, from among the People of the Book, until they pay the Jizya with willing submission, and feel themselves subdued.
Salaam Meedo,
I see that you have not quit attacking my character rather than my arguments yet! Who are you to judge my faith before conversion? Please find another tactic! Sorry to say, you have to take lessons from Joseph Alison in order to learn how to write posts with dignity and maturity. Salaam to you.
Glory to God in the highest & peace to His people on earth
Where in the above verse did God accuse Jews of idol worship?
God accused jews and Christians in this first not of Idol worship but for a non correct understanding of teh concept of Chosenness.
AGAIN and AGAIN and AGAIN all i see you do angelos is take YOUR OWN interpretation of the verse and condemn it !!! That doesnt relate to Islam in anything.
Better luck next time
meedo
I
inJESUS
Guest
M
meedo
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I
inJESUS
Guest
V
Valke2
Guest
I
inJESUS
Guest
thx Valke2
M
meedo
Guest
I
inJESUS
Guest
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