If Our Lady wasn't perpetually virgin

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Sure! The way I see it, Protestants see Jesus as a divine parasite, leeching off a host body, then discarding Her when He is born. This is not what a mother is, but, this is how Protestants explain Mary.
“The way I see it”, that’s ridiculous. Most Protestants don’t really care about whether Mary was a virgin or not, whether she was born with original sin or not, and whether she sinned in her life or not. The only time this ever comes up is when there’s some sort of snit between Protestants and Catholics.

Listen to Jesse DuPlantis sometime; he’s a Protestant televangelist who grew up Catholic and has a tremendous admiration for Mary.
Well, it pretty much is. I’ve noticed that many who outright deny the perpetual virginity of Mary don’t really know Jesus. **Our salvation is dependant on knowing who Jesus is, doing His will, following His teachings. ** How did Jesus begin to be Jesus – with His Mother. Belief in Mary’s Virginity, that She is still a virgin, chaste, and concecrated to God TO THIS DAY is necessary to believe.
The bolded part is good. The rest is not.

For one thing, nowhere is it written, “How can you be saved? Believe that Jesus is the resurrected son of God and live a life of love and mercy. But if you don’t read further back in time, overanalyze a total non-issue, and accept this position, you’re screwed.”

I can’t imagine this exchange. While hanging on the cross, the criminal looks over and says, “Remember me when you come into your Kingdom.” Did Jesus look over and say, “You see that woman down there? That’s the woman who birthed and nursed me. Do you believe that she’s a virgin to this day and always be and has never sinned and was born without original sin?” “I don’t know; we’ve all been taught from the beginning that Adam stained every person born naturally of an earthly couple with original sin. As for her virginity, what difference does it make?” “Well, if you don’t believe that, then you can hang there until you die and then you can spend the rest of eternity getting jabbed with hot pokers, you Luther-loving heathen.”
 
I received the Spirit before I was married, in fact before I even started dating my wife. Would I thus be committing adultery by having “conjugal relations” with her?
Please! Stop tickling our ribs! :rotfl: :rotfl: :rotfl:

We don’t believe that the Holy Spirit overshadowed you and you conceived and bore God’s Only-begotten Son.

PAX :rotfl:
 
Please! Stop tickling our ribs! :rotfl: :rotfl: :rotfl:
I have to. If someone tickles my ribs, it hurts.😉 (seriously it does)
We don’t believe that the Holy Spirit overshadowed you and you conceived and bore God’s Only-begotten Son.
Your point being? I guess it depends on what your definition of “overshadowed” is.
 
You have no way of knowing this for certain, if you claim that you do, you are limiting God’s omnipotence, He can do anything, at anytime, in anyway that He wants too…and on His own authority.😉

Poppycock! Is that pert enough for you? – or perhaps I should have said…how sad for you…if you truly believe that last sentence in the above quote of yours. 😦

Why would it require an appeal to your tradition…again…is God not able (or allowed too) operate outside of the Catholic church to accomplish HIS WILL…was a new dogma passed and He wasn’t informed??? :highprayer:

Hebrews 4:11-13

Thank you for giving the Protestants a clearly defined reason for what you claim to be true, and what you believe to be true in regards to their “chaos of faith and morals”.
What would be the Catholic church’s excuse then for their “chaos of faith and morals?” 🤷

That’s okay. Their salvation wasn’t dependent upon whether they believed it or not…neither is yours…is it?

“The assault against Mary in Protestantism” – is yet another Catholic church myth, that has been perpetuated (no pun intended) over the years.
As stated before, Protestants aren’t “against” Mary…….it’s what the Catholic church has done/is doing to her.

Yes Paul did say that …but that in no way applies to the Catholic church “as we know it today”. 🙂

I had to debate with myself whether I should respond to such ingenuous reasoning as yours. But so be it.

Where was God’s omnipotence, as you misconstrue it to be, when heresies arose in the Church as a result of the private interpretation of Scripture divorced from Sacred Tradition and indifference to the authoritative teachings of the one Apostolic Catholic Church?

I take it then you don’t believe Jesus and the Apostles were Jews. One cannot understand the explicit meaning of their words without appealing to Sacred Tradition. Oral Tradition precedes the written word and is an integral part of Sacred Tradition from whence the Scriptures come to us in their fullness of truth. The Mormons cite the same scriptures as we do, but they don’t believe in the Trinity as revealed through Sacred Tradition of the one universal Catholic Apostolic Church. Like you they believe, that because of God’s “omnipotence” and the free reign of the Holy Spirit, their perception is the true one. I’m sure the Mormons have cited Hebrews as well to fit their erroneous theology.

You could never have arrived at a true understanding of the Trinity, if in fact you do have one, without first having heard about the Trinity in accord with Sacred Tradition of the Church and orthodox Protestantism.

There is no chaos of faith and morals in the Catholic Church, since the Holy Spirit guides her in all truth (Jn 16:12-13) through the apostolic teaching authority of the Magisterium: the Pope in communion with the world’s Bishops. All faithful Catholics give their sacred assent to the dogma of the Perpetual Virginity and observe the prohibition on divorce, abortion, and artificial birth control in accord with the teachings of the Sacred and Universal Magisterium. This is not the case in the uncentralized Protestant movement.

So my point is that not all Protestants have accepted the Catholic teaching of the Perpetual Virginity of Mary. Protestants are inconsistent in their beliefs, for they rely on their own fallible interpretations of Scripture. As a result, one denomination has splintered and formed another. The crumbling cookie and pyramid affect of Sola Scriptura. Oh, dear. Isn’t “your” God omnipotent!

What the Catholic Church has done to her? Say that to Bishop Ignatius of Antioch (c. A.D. 110), a disciple of John the Evangelist, who taught like his mentor and Paul that the Sacrament of the Holy Eucharist is really the body and blood of Christ. Ignatius is the first early Church Father who implicitly taught like John and Luke that Mary is the Mother of God and the New Eve and Advocate to the Church. Justin Martyr (A.D. 155) took the torch and further articulated these perceptions of Mary.

The Catholic Church today is the Early Church founded on the Apostles.

PAX :sleep:
 
Your point being? I guess it depends on what your definition of “overshadowed” is.
My point being you couldn’t have committed adultery by having married your wife after having been baptized in the Spirit. The Holy Spirit impregnated Mary in a miraculous way. She actually “conceived” and “bore” the Word “made” flesh by the power of the Holy Spirit. ( Lk 1:31; Jn 1:14; Gal 4:4).

When the fullness of time had come, God sent his son ‘made’ of a woman.
Galatians 4, 4 [DRB]


In his ‘Commentary on Galatians 4’, Aquinas tells us the principle of generation is twofold: conjoined - separate. The conjoined principle refers to the matter Christ took from his mother’s body to become physiologically fully human. This principle is passive. In this sense it would be proper to say that Jesus was “born” of a woman, having provided the material cause of his generation as man. However, human beings are not inanimate objects made only from matter. A formal cause defines who we essentially are. Now Mary had no relations with Joseph in order to conceive and bear Jesus. The active separate principle did not involve Joseph with Mary in the conception of her child. So as far as Christ was a divine person in the real flesh, through the formation of his human body and thereby the acquisition of the immaterial human attributes of soul, mind, and will, his generation as a man was not conjoined but separate in principle through the active as opposed to passive agency of the Holy Spirit who overshadowed Mary and was the effective cause of her conception, replacing the seed of man. As a historical person Jesus was divine, since the Holy Spirit is divine, and as a single person our Lord assumed a human nature through the interaction of the Holy Spirit with Mary as an active separate principle interacting with the passive conjoined principle. Jesus acquired a human body and thus a human soul, mind, and will from Mary through the active agency of the Holy Spirit in place of Joseph. Hence, Catholics are justified to invoke Mary as Spouse of the Holy Spirit and Mother of God, unless Jesus wasn’t actually a divine person. If Joseph had been the father of Jesus, then our Lord would have been just another human being like ourselves.

“And whence is this to me, that the mother of my Lord should come to me?”
Luke 1, 43

"There is ‘one’ Physician who is possessed both of flesh and spirit; both ‘made and not made’; God existing in flesh; true life in death;
* both of Mary and of God** ; first possible and then impossible, even Jesus Christ our Lord."*
Ignatius of Antioch, To the Ephesians, 7 [c.A.D. 110]

With regard to Galatians 4:4, Aquinas comments that Paul had intended to write “made of a woman” and not “born of a woman” to emphasize the fullness of Christ’s humanity in union with the fullness of his divinity: the hypostatic union of a divine nature and a human nature in one Divine Person, both of Mary and of God. The expression “born of a woman” can be misleading to the point of espousing the Arian heresy. For this expression can deceive one into believing that Jesus was just a man like ourselves. Moreover, one may even arrive at the conclusion Nestorious held and taught by his private interpretation of Scripture in contravention of Sacred Tradition, that Mary was just the mother of the human person who coinhabited one body with the divine person. Modern day Fundamentalists lean towards this heresy by claiming that Mary was the mother of just Christ’s human nature - as if mothers don’t give birth to single persons. But Sacred Tradition of the Church reveals to us that Mary conceived and gave birth to one Divine Person, who through her actually possessed a human soul, mind, and will together with his divine attributes by the power of the Holy Spirit.

PAX 😉
 
**Good post. Please add to that some passage in the bible NT which states that Mary and Joseph used to close their doors at night on the world like a husband and wife for fourteen (14) years.

Absolutely no harm. I have come on the call of Nickname…

**
Are you claiming that Joseph and Mary were never married? I don’t understand your question. I’ve always assumed they were married and lived in the same house together. It doesn’t seem like the Bible writers considered it important to discuss the intimate details of their married life.
 
I’d like to interject here, not to disagree with you but to answer this. It is not sinful to have sex within a marriage, but, Mary was married to the Holy Spirit, not Joseph. If She were to have conjugal relations with St. Joseph, she would be committing adultery by cheating on the Holy Spirit and She would then be sinning.
You are claiming that Joseph and Mary lived together without the benefit of marriage? That doesn’t seem Biblical at all. And that Mary was married to the Holy Spirit? She never had sex with God like the Mormons claim so it would seem a little bit of a stretch to claim that Jesus’ conception was the result of some marriage to God.
 
Obviously you don’t see it right and I’ve never heard any Protestants explain it that way.

Oh well….how can you disagree with that!🤷

But Jesus never mentions this “concept”.

And so by your own reasoning in the above statement, are you saying that Mary was a bigamist while Joseph was still alive…Mary had two husbands, being married to both the Holy Spirit and Joseph at the same time?

Stating that this “claim” is not new……doesn’t make it “true”.
Please don’t say I see this wrong. People on this very forum have said that Mary was a vessel and a Host Body…which, despite the truth in that statement, was meant as an insult. Hmmm…I guess I can’t really be too much offended as much as ammused by it. No Protestant here has ever venerated Mary or looked at Her as a mother (waits for Protestants to show me their posts so that I’m wrong, as I’m sure SOME have, meaning my generalization is void)…Not even Jesus’ Mother. Protestants either loathe or are apathetic to Mary so much, that what they have to hear at Christmas, they do not mention the rest of the year.

Not new does not equal not true, but, the Holy Spirit guiding the Church for the past 2000 years and having this as something that has always been true, by the beliefs of the Apostles, Church Fathers, et al, does.
Belief in Mary’s perpetual virginity, that she is still a virgin, chaste, and consecrated to God, TO THIS DAY is necessary to believe – ONLY IF- you only want to remain a member in good standing with the Catholic church…and nothing more.:sad_yes:
NO! Not so! This entire thread to which I am replying and others commenting to me in other threads show that it is absolutely necessary to know who Jesus is!!
I received the Spirit before I was married, in fact before I even started dating my wife. Would I thus be committing adultery by having “conjugal relations” with her?
I’m going to assume you meant Holy Spirit and not some other kind.
  1. Were you truly free from all sin and the propensity to sin before meeting your wife?
  2. Were you a virgin before meeting your wife?
  3. Were you so free from sin and such a virgin that God gave you His Son so that you could give birth to God in the flesh of His own Human?
If the answer to at least one of these is, ‘no,’ then, no.
The bolded part is good. The rest is not.

For one thing, nowhere is it written, “How can you be saved? Believe that Jesus is the resurrected son of God and live a life of love and mercy. But if you don’t read further back in time, overanalyze a total non-issue, and accept this position, you’re screwed.”

I can’t imagine this exchange. While hanging on the cross, the criminal looks over and says, “Remember me when you come into your Kingdom.” Did Jesus look over and say, “You see that woman down there? That’s the woman who birthed and nursed me. Do you believe that she’s a virgin to this day and always be and has never sinned and was born without original sin?” “I don’t know; we’ve all been taught from the beginning that Adam stained every person born naturally of an earthly couple with original sin. As for her virginity, what difference does it make?” “Well, if you don’t believe that, then you can hang there until you die and then you can spend the rest of eternity getting jabbed with hot pokers, you Luther-loving heathen.”
The entire post is good, not just the part you think. Please, do not pick apart what you like but rather look at how it relates to the entire message. Just because you agree with something doesn’t make the rest not true. You feel the need to defend your position. THIS is what happens, this kind of confusion happens when one doesn’t know and love Mary and believes as the Church believes. Please, please, please love Mary so that you can get to KNOW Her Son.
You are claiming that Joseph and Mary lived together without the benefit of marriage? That doesn’t seem Biblical at all. And that Mary was married to the Holy Spirit? She never had sex with God like the Mormons claim so it would seem a little bit of a stretch to claim that Jesus’ conception was the result of some marriage to God.
Joseph and Mary were married…legally, as far as everybody else knew. The marriage, as such human marriages were/are, was never concecrated in the normal way. Mary was married to the Holy Spirit! This is true! She never had sex with anybody!! She was married to the Holy Spirit. I am saddened that you guys have never heard of this when this has been truth for 2000 years. THIS is why Mary is so important! This is why the Church is so important. It would be more of a stretch to claim that God sent His angel to a girl and ask if She wanted to do this only because She was in the right place at the right time, and after asking, and after impregnating the Girl, had nothing more to do with Her.

Mary was the Spouse of the Holy Spirit.
 
Especially for Good Fella

I had to look it up….most likely due to my ignorant pertiness. (I just made up that word)🙂

Inerudite:

a.1. unlearned, ignorant
Code:
**unlearned:/**U]  *not learned;not scholarly or
                                         erudite, uneducated; untaught; 
                                         unschooled, ignorant
                                         not acquired 
                                         by instruction, study,etc.

              **ignorant:***
apprenticed, benighted, birdbrained, blind to,cretinous, dense, green, illiterate, imbecilic, inexperienced, innocent, insensible, in the dark, mindless, misinformed, moronic, naive, nescient, oblivious, obtuse, shallow, thick, unconscious, unconversant, uncultivated, uncultured, uneducated, unenlightened, uninformed, uninitiated, unintellectual, unknowledgeable, unlearned, unlettered, unmindful, unread, unschooled, unsuspecting, untaught, untrained, unwitting, witless

Good Fella, it’s obvious that I’ve pushed you to the edge of the precipice of evil – what other reason could there be for such a comment as you gave above…therefore….since I am assuming my rightful responsibility in having done this to you:blush: …I’ve posted some scripture that **both of us **will benefit from.

2 Peter Ch.1: V5-9 (NASB)

5 Now for this very reason also, applying all diligence, in your faith supply moral excellence, and in your moral excellence, knowledge, and in your knowledge, self-control,
6 and in your self-control, perseverance, and in your perseverance, godliness,
7 and in your godliness, brotherly kindness, and in your brotherly kindness, love.
8 For if these qualities are yours and are increasing, they render you neither useless nor unfruitful **in the true knowledge **of our Lord Jesus Christ.
9 For he who lacks these qualities is blind or short-sighted, having forgotten his purification from his former sins.
10 Therefore, brethren, be all the more diligent to make certain about His calling and choosing you; for as long as you practice these things, you will never stumble;
11 for in this way the entrance into the eternal kingdom of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ will be abundantly supplied to you

Note:
If you need any assistance in “interpreting
” it……I want you to know I’m here for you. 🙂

**Oops! :doh2:…….I know…… I knowwww……some habits are hard to break……I will work at it! **

At least Sarah Palin simply smiled while she was being roasted by her double, comedian Tina Fey. She didn’t whip out a Bible and cite scripture. Not that I’m roasting you. 😉

I notice you never consulted the dictionary for the word “pert”. I wonder why. :confused:

“The play’s the thing, wherein I’ll catch the conscience of the king.”
William Shakespeare, Hamlet, ll, ii, 617

I may as well ask the devil to interpret scripture for me. Why go to his advocate, who has the power to “push someone to the precipice of evil?” I’m sorry to disappoint you, but my Advocatrix protects me from the power of evil. :byzsoc:

I expect you to tell me that you have the Advocate Jesus to protect you, but can he protect you in your wilful religious pride as you offend his Blessed Mother by publicly contesting the honour the Church rightfully shows her? Satan is making war on Mary and her offspring (Rev 12:17; cf. Jn 2:3-5; 19:26-27).

Before I bid you adieu, here’s a passage for you:

“Any why seest thou the mote that is in your brother’s eye; and seest not the beam in thy own eye? Or how sayest thou to thy brother: Let me cast the mote out of thy eye; and behold a beam is in thy own eye? Thou hypocrite, cast out first the beam in thy own eye, and then shalt thou see to cast out the mote in thy brother’s eye.”
Matthew 7, 3-5

PAX 😉
 
Good Fella Post #167
"If anyone does not confess that the holy and ever-Virgin and immaculate Mary did not conceive without seed by the power of the Holy Spirit the very Word of God, give birth to him without corruption, thereafter that very virginity remaining ever integral, let him be anathema."
"
Good Fella:

The anathema carries dogmatic weight"
** ** Why is it necessary for the Catholic church to make it an “obligation” for their members to believe in one of their dogmas, when such a dogma in no way affects the person’s salvation or their belief, etc. in Jesus Christ? If a person’s salvation is not affected, why is such an extreme pronouncement from the Catholic church - the curse of “anathema” necessary?

The necessity of doing so, indicates that it has nothing to do with obeying Jesus and what the Apostles preached in **their **gospel message, but has more to do with obeying what the Catholic church (meaning hierarchy) has embraced and developed over the centuries – that being a “Marian Theology” and its attempts of trying to meld this ‘theology’ into the pure gospel message of salvation.

Nothing
**is to be added to the gospel message **– it’s the same today as it was back then – and just as sufficient.

To say that this “Marian Theology” has been believed and practiced, unofficially and considered by many of the ECF’s, early church theologians and Popes and other hierarchy officials for centuries, is obvious from all the “historical” evidence that has been posted, etc. – but that only lends credence to the claim, that the Catholic church as we know it today – is not the same church(s) that Jesus and the Apostles established based on their gospel message.

It only proves that there were indeed *false **teachings *way back then, as Jesus and the Apostles stated and warned…and forewarned that there would always continue to be false teachings.

The fact that Marian devotion was practiced by believers from the very early church beginnings is not the main issue, the question is how and why did it get so out of proportion, to the point that the “gospel message” and our ultimate salvation is no longer recognizable as something based solely on Jesus’ sacrifice, but now is intertwined with a helper….a co-worker ……a new “theology”……resulting in a different “gospel message” altogether.

The claim by the Catholic church that they have the “sole authority” based on “apostolic succession” – (no matter how far back they trace their roots) and “complete authority” based on Jesus’ proclamation that He ‘would be with them until the end of time’ is **nullified and voided instantly **when they begin to veer away from *His Gospel truth *or attempt to blend some other “theology” into it.

The only reason the “anathema” pronouncement was issued by the Catholic church, is because there were faithful, devout and Holy Spirit lead believers within its members that were aware of the dangers of embracing such a “developing theology” and were reluctant to do so.
“**
Good Fella:**
Besides, Catholics must give their sacred assent to the doctrine of Mary’s ‘virginitas in partu’ to be consistent in their obligation to assent to the dogmas of the Immaculate Conception and Assumption of Mary”
**“Oh what a tangled web we weave…when first we practice to deceive.”**Sir Walter Scott

Why such a desparate need for “consistency”? Would it be for needed “credibility”?

To **whom **are Catholics “obligated”?

Why is there an “obligation to assent” to dogmas that don’t
effect a person’s salvation?

Jesus promised that the Spirit of Truth would be coming to direct and teach the Apostles and bring to remembrance all things He had taught them and more things to come.

The “gospel message of salvation” was complete. As is recorded in Mark - Jesus himself said, "The time is fulfilled, and the kingdom of God is at hand. Repent and believe in the gospel."

Nothing was/is to be “developed” and blended into it by ANYONE.
Paul “explicitly” states this, twice in fact.
**Galatians Ch1:V **
[1] Paul, an apostle, (not of men, neither by man, but by Jesus Christ, and God the Father, who raised him from the dead)
[2] And all the brethren which are with me, unto the churches of Galatia:
[3] Grace be to you and peace from God the Father, and from our Lord Jesus Christ,
[4] Who gave himself for our sins, that he might deliver us from this present evil world, according to the will of God and our Father:
[5] To whom be glory for ever and ever. Amen.
[6] I marvel that ye are so soon removed from him that called you into the grace of Christ unto another gospel:
[7] Which is not another; but there be some that trouble you, and would pervert the gospel of Christ.
[8] But though we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel unto you than that which we have preached unto you, let him be accursed.
[9] As we said before, so say I now again, If any man preach any other gospel unto you than that ye have received, let him be accursed.
 
Good Fella:
Where was God’s omnipotence, as you misconstrue it to be, when heresies arose in the Church as a result of the private interpretation of Scripture divorced from Sacred Tradition and indifference to the authoritative teachings of the one Apostolic Catholic Church?
How have I misconstrued God’ omnipotence?
Oh…wait…yes, the Catholic church has a “different” interpretation of what omnipotence means.
How convenient for them. 🙂
Good Fella:
I take it then you don’t believe Jesus and the Apostles were Jews. One cannot understand the explicit meaning of their words without appealing to Sacred Tradition. Oral Tradition precedes the written word and is an integral part of Sacred Tradition from whence the Scriptures come to us in their fullness of truth.
No…:tsktsk:…that is something the Catholic church claims and teaches – as it has needed to do, in order for the Catholic church’s “development” and implementation of its new “theologies”.
Good Fella:
The Mormons cite the same scriptures as we do, but they don’t believe in the Trinity as revealed through Sacred Tradition of the one universal Catholic Apostolic Church. Like you they believe, that because of God’s “omnipotence” and the free reign of the Holy Spirit, their perception is the true one. I’m sure the Mormons have cited Hebrews as well to fit their erroneous theology.
Whether they have cited Hebrews or not is of no concern to me.
My only concern is for those members of any church, denomination, cult for that matter – be it Mormon or Catholic – to come to the full realization that they have misplaced their “faith” by placing it in the hands of fallible men.
Good Fella:
You could never have arrived at a true understanding of the Trinity, if in fact you do have one, without first having heard about the Trinity in accord with Sacred Tradition of the Church and orthodox Protestantism.
There you go again……taking God’s ability to do whatever He wants to do, to whoever He wants to do it and placing it a box that belongs only to the Catholic church….I wonder how Paul would have responded to your statement above??? :hmmm:
Good Fella:
There is no chaos of faith and morals in the Catholic Church, since the Holy Spirit guides her in all truth (Jn 16:12-13) through the apostolic teaching authority of the Magisterium: the Pope in communion with the world’s Bishops. All faithful Catholics give their sacred assent to the dogma of the Perpetual Virginity and **observe the prohibition on divorce, abortion, and artificial birth control in accord with the teachings of the Sacred and Universal Magisterium. **This is not the case in the uncentralized Protestant movement.
And what perfect world do you live in Good Fella?
The one where the “tooth fairy” and “leprechauns” exist???
:irish2:
Good Fella:
So my point is that not all Protestants have accepted the Catholic teaching of the Perpetual Virginity of Mary. Protestants are inconsistent in their beliefs, for they rely on their own fallible interpretations of Scripture. As a result, one denomination has splintered and formed another. The crumbling cookie and pyramid affect of Sola Scriptura. Oh, dear. Isn’t “your” God omnipotent!
There is no problem Good Fella, only that which has been placed in your mind by the Catholic church and their need for control :hypno: and their failure to realize that God still has it all under control. He knows who are His and they know His voice.
Good Fella:
What the Catholic Church has done to her? Say that to Bishop Ignatius of Antioch (c. A.D. 110), a disciple of John the Evangelist, who taught like his mentor and Paul that the Sacrament of the Holy Eucharist is really the body and blood of Christ. Ignatius is the first early Church Father who implicitly taught like John and Luke that Mary is the Mother of God and the New Eve and Advocate to the Church. Justin Martyr (A.D. 155) took the torch and further articulated these perceptions of Mary.
But is was never an “essential” part of the gospel message……was it?
No one’s “salvation” depended on the belief of anything to do with Mary….did it?
 
Please don’t say I see this wrong. People on this very forum have said that Mary was a vessel and a Host Body…which, despite the truth in that statement, was meant as an insult.
I myself have referred to Mary as a “holy vessel” – and it wasn’t meant as an insult, although one person tried to “turn it into that”, by *their own *perception, to be what they wanted it to be.
**adstrinity: **
Not new does not equal not true, but, the Holy Spirit guiding the Church for the past 2000 years and having this as something that has always been true, by the beliefs of the Apostles, Church Fathers, et al, does.
What makes you think that the Apostles held to these beliefs, about the perpetual virginity of Mary? As for the Holy Spirit guiding the Catholic church for the past 2000 years, that is something that they have told and taught you to believe…and that in itself does not make it true.
****Originally Posted by Leeann ****
Belief in Mary’s perpetual virginity, that she is still a virgin, chaste, and consecrated to God, TO THIS DAY is necessary to believe – ONLY IF- you only want to remain a member in good standing with the Catholic church…and nothing more.
Response from adstrinity:
NO! Not so! This entire thread to which I am replying and others commenting to me in other threads show that it is absolutely necessary to know who Jesus is!!
If they are Catholic responders – then this is also what they’ve been taught by the Catholic church to believe – **OR ELSE! ** They MUST believe in the perpetual virginity if they want to remain a member in good standing with the Catholic Church.
This has nothing to do with “knowing who Jesus is.”

Jesus and His Apostles put forth no such ultimatum with regards to Mary, in fact it is never mentioned by any of them as the/a way to “know Him”.
 
Good Fella:
I may as well ask the devil to interpret scripture for me. Why go to his advocate, who has the power to “push someone to the precipice of evil?” I’m sorry to disappoint you, but my Advocatrix protects me from the power of evil.
I expect you to tell me that you have the Advocate Jesus to protect you, but can he protect you in your wilful religious pride as you offend his Blessed Mother by publicly contesting the honour the Church rightfully shows her? Satan is making war on Mary and her offspring (Rev 12:17; cf. Jn 2:3-5; 19:26-27).
Why would you go to your “Advocatrix” when you can….or maybe you can’t… 😊 …go to Jesus?
Here’s a thought…perhaps any offence that you perceive as being aimed at Mary, is a result of your own willful, religiously, prideful mind that has been so blinded by the heresies of the Catholic church….that you can’t distinguish things clearly now.🤷

Good Fella:
Before I bid you adieu, here’s a passage for you AND ME: (or is it you and I…)
(I’m sure you just forgot to add that!)😉

“Any why seest thou the mote that is in your brother’s eye; and seest not the beam in thy own eye? Or how sayest thou to thy brother: Let me cast the mote out of thy eye; and behold a beam is in thy own eye? Thou hypocrite, cast out first the beam in thy own eye, and then shalt thou see to cast out the mote in thy brother’s eye.”
Matthew 7, 3-5
 
Please don’t say I see this wrong. People on this very forum have said that Mary was a vessel and a Host Body…which, despite the truth in that statement, was meant as an insult. Hmmm…I guess I can’t really be too much offended as much as ammused by it. No Protestant here has ever venerated Mary or looked at Her as a mother (waits for Protestants to show me their posts so that I’m wrong, as I’m sure SOME have, meaning my generalization is void)…Not even Jesus’ Mother. Protestants either loathe or are apathetic to Mary so much, that what they have to hear at Christmas, they do not mention the rest of the year.
That’s the problem with generalizing. Mathematicians can make statements of “all”, “none”, “always”, and “never”, whereas anyone dealing with human groups and cultures really can’t.

If I came on here and said, “You know, all I see are a bunch of wafer-munching, incense-huffing Vaticanites more interested in saints and idols than Jesus”, I would rightly be roasted for it. Certainly it could apply to a few, but then again I could ask 100 people in 1984 who voted for Walter Mondale and extrapolate that he won in a landslide.
Not new does not equal not true, but, the Holy Spirit guiding the Church for the past 2000 years and having this as something that has always been true, by the beliefs of the Apostles, Church Fathers, et al, does.
When all else fails, revert back to “2000 years” or “1500 years”. For 1900 years, it was taught that exercise was a complete waste and only beneficial for those who wanted to risk their souls. For 1900 years, it was taught that meat shouldn’t be consumed on Fridays. What’s changed? Who is anyone in the last 100 years to reverse essentially meaningless doctrines? After all, time was on the side of the old way of doing things.
NO! Not so! This entire thread to which I am replying and others commenting to me in other threads show that it is absolutely necessary to know who Jesus is!!
I’ve met some wonderful people in my life. With some, I’ve met their parents and thought, “They did a terrific job raising their kids. It’s easy to see how they turned out as well as they did.” With others, I’ve met their parents and thought, “My friend is very strong to overcome an upbringing like that.” Does my desire to associate with my friends change because of their parents? If one of my friends was orphaned at a young age and was shuffled between foster homes, does that change things?

It might give me a particular appreciation for the way they were raised, but it in no way affects the very essence of their being.
I’m going to assume you meant Holy Spirit and not some other kind.
Of course.
  1. Were you truly free from all sin and the propensity to sin before meeting your wife?
  2. Were you a virgin before meeting your wife?
  3. Were you so free from sin and such a virgin that God gave you His Son so that you could give birth to God in the flesh of His own Human?
If the answer to at least one of these is, ‘no,’ then, no.
If Mary were free of the propensity to sin from birth, then you’ve reinforced what you refer to as the “Protestant idea” of her. Part of our humanity is temptation to sin and fall from what we are supposed to be. If Mary were free of this temptation, then she would be literally nothing more than a human automaton.

I remember hearing a story about a bishop visiting a seminary and meeting with each of the students individually. When he got to one, the student said, “Since enrolling here, I no longer have the urge to sin; temptation doesn’t even approach me.” The bishop responded, “That’s the worst thing that could happen. If you are no longer being tempted, it’s because Satan regards you as not worthy of his time to try to get you to fall.”
The entire post is good, not just the part you think. Please, do not pick apart what you like but rather look at how it relates to the entire message. Just because you agree with something doesn’t make the rest not true. You feel the need to defend your position. THIS is what happens, this kind of confusion happens when one doesn’t know and love Mary and believes as the Church believes. Please, please, please love Mary so that you can get to KNOW Her Son.
Of course truth isn’t built on how convenient it may be, but that’s beside the point.

I was raised in the Roman church and was a member until I was about 19. This included a number of years of CCD and graduating from a Catholic high school. I’m quite familiar with how Mary is regarded. My failure to wholeheartedly accept the idea of perpetual virginity, freedom from original sin (or plain ol’ regular sin), or anything else in no way affects my relationship with Jesus.

Now, if I were to make obviously untrue or simply grossly offensive statements about Mary, that might be another story.
 
Joseph and Mary were married…legally, as far as everybody else knew. The marriage, as such human marriages were/are, was never concecrated in the normal way. Mary was married to the Holy Spirit! This is true! She never had sex with anybody!! She was married to the Holy Spirit. I am saddened that you guys have never heard of this when this has been truth for 2000 years. THIS is why Mary is so important! This is why the Church is so important. It would be more of a stretch to claim that God sent His angel to a girl and ask if She wanted to do this only because She was in the right place at the right time, and after asking, and after impregnating the Girl, had nothing more to do with Her.
Again, I’m familiar with this doctrine. I don’t believe that it’s essential for salvation; I can’t find any scriptural backing for it no matter who it is that’s making the statements. I don’t see “The greatest commandment is to love God with all your heart, mind, and soul; love your neighbor as yourself; and believe that Mary was a perpetual virgin married to the Holy Spirit who was free of any type of sin from birth.” I don’t see “I tell you the truth, criminal, that today you will be with me in Paradise for believing in me as Messiah. But you’ll still be scourged with whips of flame for all eternity if you don’t believe that the woman down there at the foot of the cross is and always has been a virgin.”
 
Again, I’m familiar with this doctrine. I don’t believe that it’s essential for salvation; I can’t find any scriptural backing for it no matter who it is that’s making the statements. I don’t see “The greatest commandment is to love God with all your heart, mind, and soul; love your neighbor as yourself; and believe that Mary was a perpetual virgin married to the Holy Spirit who was free of any type of sin from birth.” I don’t see “I tell you the truth, criminal, that today you will be with me in Paradise for believing in me as Messiah. But you’ll still be scourged with whips of flame for all eternity if you don’t believe that the woman down there at the foot of the cross is and always has been a virgin.”
😦 If you don’t see where Mary comes in, and this goes for you, too, Leeann, then this is exactly why Mary is so important. When Mary is taken out of the equation, the answer becomes a skewed Jesus, I’d like to reffer to Him as, “Mesus,” because he is they hybrid of, “Jesus & Me,” thinking. When Mary is invovled in this, one realizes that there is more to God than just me and Jesus. When one desecrates Our Blessed Virgin Mother, one starts coming up with erronious theology such as, She & Joseph had sex, Jesus had blood brothers, if we don’t have a Holy Mother who loves us, we don’t have a Holy Mother Church to look over us, and then the worst offense, having faith in what a book says, but, not being able to see past that book, though we are told that blessed are they who don’t see. O LORD WHAT FOOLS THESE MORTALS BE!

When one loses Mary, one loses who Christ truly is. One simply cannot know who Jesus is without knowing Mary. One who loses Mary or doesn’t know Her, puts Jesus into their own understanding of getting His human nature through the Virgin Mary without understanding just how human He really is.

If you love Christ Jesus, please ask Him for forgiveness of the things you’ve said about His Mother, please ask Him to introduce you to His Mother.

As a last comment, Mary, we know, was tempted by the devil. The Bible says so, She was just always able, by the grace of God, to say no, and to have such a revulsion to sin that She was not in the least tempted by it. She was the Perfect Woman fit for a King.
 
Also, I’d like to add, concerning Mary being the Spouse of the Holy Spirit, look at it this way (although, I suspect protests of, “That’s not how it was 2000 years ago for Jewish customs”), a good wife, gets to know her husband, a good wife dedicates her life to her husband, the husband, then, gets to become one flesh with her.

Mary’s life was dedicated to God. She was concecrated to God. She loved God with all She had, with Her mind, body, and soul. As a result, Her and the Holy Spirit conceived Jesus because She got to know and love God. She got to know Her Husband and love Him so much that it is only fitting that it culminates to Her getting to carry God within Her.
 
😦 If you don’t see where Mary comes in, and this goes for you, too, Leeann, then this is exactly why Mary is so important. When Mary is taken out of the equation, the answer becomes a skewed Jesus, I’d like to reffer to Him as, “Mesus,” because he is they hybrid of, “Jesus & Me,” thinking. When Mary is invovled in this, one realizes that there is more to God than just me and Jesus. When one desecrates Our Blessed Virgin Mother, one starts coming up with erronious theology such as, She & Joseph had sex, Jesus had blood brothers, if we don’t have a Holy Mother who loves us, we don’t have a Holy Mother Church to look over us, and then the worst offense, having faith in what a book says, but, not being able to see past that book, though we are told that blessed are they who don’t see. O LORD WHAT FOOLS THESE MORTALS BE!
This is exactly where “the Protestant idea” of Mary as bordering on demigod comes from.
  1. There is more to God than “just me and Jesus”. That’s where the Holy Spirit comes in. If you’re trying to say that Mary is an essential part of God currently, you literally have elevated the Trinity into the Quadrinity.
  2. If Mary and Joseph physically copulated, what difference does it make? Does it in any way denigrate her or her role in history as being chosen by the Almighty to bear the Messiah?
  3. If Jesus had blood brothers (half-brothers, actually), does that denigrate Mary personally?
  4. For 2,000 years before Mary set foot on the earth, there was no “Holy Mother who loves us”. Did that affect the righteousness of Noah? Abraham? Israel? Moses? Joshua? Caleb? Gideon? David? Any of them?
  5. A “Holy Mother Church who looks over us”…does that include Protestant heathens such as myself? Or is the church supposed to be like Santa Claus?
  6. Who says anything about not being able to see past a book? The basis of faith is looking past the seen and into the unseen. And if I have to look to who’s buried in the books, it would involve those who quote written traditions of early church leaders time after time. But that’s neither here nor there.
When one loses Mary, one loses who Christ truly is. One simply cannot know who Jesus is without knowing Mary. One who loses Mary or doesn’t know Her, puts Jesus into their own understanding of getting His human nature through the Virgin Mary without understanding just how human He really is.
Don’t tell me, tell it to the underground churches and those oppressed. “Your faith is amazing; you saw your family murdered for believing and yet held fast. But it was all for naught since none of you believed in these Marian doctrines. Enjoy burning for eternity, heathen.”
If you love Christ Jesus, please ask Him for forgiveness of the things you’ve said about His Mother, please ask Him to introduce you to His Mother.
Scripture says that only two have ever entered the realm of the dead without physical death: Enoch and Elijah. If I refer to Elijah fleeing without being told to (unflattering, at minimum), would I need to ask to be forgiven on Elijah’s behalf?
As a last comment, Mary, we know, was tempted by the devil. The Bible says so, She was just always able, by the grace of God, to say no, and to have such a revulsion to sin that She was not in the least tempted by it. She was the Perfect Woman fit for a King.
Of course, by capitalizing these parts you’ve also gone into the demigod territory. But the bolded parts contradict each other anyway. How can one be tempted without being tempted?
 
Hajnalcsillag,

Jo napot kivanok! Thank you for your clear and accurate responses. I’m enjoying seeing reason and truth being expressed about Mary (Miriyam) rather than blind, baseless adoration as a demi-goddess.

Koszonom szepen! (How does one do the Hungarian vowel points in these forum thingies?)
 
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