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RyanBlack
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Elizabeth, thank you for your kind words, and for your very balanced and gracious post.
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Abu
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Wrong again.
Post #51: “Any relaxation of this norm is strictly limited and confined to exceptional circumstances.”
Post #59: “Nowhere does the Church recognise any “advantages” to married priests – they are permitted under certain circumstances – and emphatically taught as an inferior state to that of celibacy.”
Post #84: “St John Paul II’s Pastores Dabo Vobis (On The Formation Of Priests In The Circumstances Of The Present Day), 1992:
“This synod strongly reaffirms what the Latin Church and some Oriental rites require that is, that the priesthood be conferred only on those men who have received from God the gift of the vocation to celibate chastity (without prejudice to the tradition of some Oriental churches and particular cases of married clergy who convert to Catholicism, which are admitted as exceptions in Pope Paul VI’s encyclical on priestly celibacy, no. 42).”
Post #90: “As stated, allowed under those special conditions as converts.”
Attention to facts is a worthy endeavour.
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babochka
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Absolutely true for the Latin Church, as it should be.
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Again, since this thread had taken a turn toward the practical advantages of celibacy, I was referring to practical advantages of a married priesthood, not to any spiritual advantage. The church need not recognize such advantages for them to exist.
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This is hardly a condemnation of a married priesthood, in its appropriate context. Of course the Pope strongly affirms the Latin church’s requirement of celibacy. He should! Out of a very long Apostolic letter, you pulled out one short paragraph on celibacy, which also reaffirmed the tradition of the Eastern churches. In the context of the entire letter, this is all he has to say about celibacy? It hardly seems that he considers it to be central to the priesthood. It is also notable that this Apostolic Letter comes from the very Pope who opened the door to the pastoral provision in the Latin Rite.
Interesting fact: There are 23 Churches in the Catholic Communion. 22 of them ordain married men to the priesthood.
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Abu
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The Orthodox reject Papal Primacy and Infallibility and other vital doctrines.
That abnormality to the Apostolic Norm was contrived at Trullo.
The Compulsory Marriage of Priests
“While Trullo did not in fact forbid celibacy in the strict sense for priests, the tone of the canons was such that priests were expected to be married and to live conjugal life like the rest of the lay faithful. By the eleventh and twelfth centuries this counsel had in fact become a precept, and celibacy as known in the Latin rite for priests and deacons was definitively rejected. [71]
[71. Cf. Stickler, *The Evolution and Discipline of Celibacy, pp 544ff.]”
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babochka
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, pp 544ff.]”
Let’s say for a moment that this is true. (I don’t know one way or the other.) Why does it matter? There is certainly precedent in the Latin Church for changing the apostolic norms (sacraments of initiation and fasting requirements come to mind).
Why must it be one or the other? Why can we not respect both traditions, realizing that each came out of a particular set of needs and circumstances?
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RyanBlack
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From the Second Vatican Council:
Perfect and perpetual continence for the sake of the Kingdom of Heaven, commended by Christ the Lord and through the course of time as well as in our own days freely accepted and observed in a praiseworthy manner by many of the faithful, is held by the Church to be of great value in a special manner for the priestly life. It is at the same time a sign and a stimulus for pastoral charity and a special source of spiritual fecundity in the world. Indeed, it is not demanded by the very nature of the priesthood, as is apparent from the practice of the early Church and from the traditions of the Eastern Churches, where, besides those who with all the bishops, by a gift of grace, choose to observe celibacy, there are also married priests of highest merit. This holy synod, while it commends ecclesiastical celibacy, in no way intends to alter that different discipline which legitimately flourishes in the Eastern Churches. It permanently exhorts all those who have received the priesthood and marriage to persevere in their holy vocation so that they may fully and generously continue to expend themselves for the sake of the flock commended to them.
Presbyterorum Ordinis, 16
Clearly, the Church holds in high esteem both the celibate priesthood, and the married priesthood, and does not view the married priesthood as something merely to be permitted as a concession to Eastern Christians.
Perfect and perpetual continence for the sake of the Kingdom of Heaven, commended by Christ the Lord and through the course of time as well as in our own days freely accepted and observed in a praiseworthy manner by many of the faithful, is held by the Church to be of great value in a special manner for the priestly life. It is at the same time a sign and a stimulus for pastoral charity and a special source of spiritual fecundity in the world. Indeed, it is not demanded by the very nature of the priesthood, as is apparent from the practice of the early Church and from the traditions of the Eastern Churches, where, besides those who with all the bishops, by a gift of grace, choose to observe celibacy, there are also married priests of highest merit. This holy synod, while it commends ecclesiastical celibacy, in no way intends to alter that different discipline which legitimately flourishes in the Eastern Churches. It permanently exhorts all those who have received the priesthood and marriage to persevere in their holy vocation so that they may fully and generously continue to expend themselves for the sake of the flock commended to them.
Presbyterorum Ordinis, 16
Clearly, the Church holds in high esteem both the celibate priesthood, and the married priesthood, and does not view the married priesthood as something merely to be permitted as a concession to Eastern Christians.
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babochka
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Now there’s some magesterial teaching, straight from the documents of a Church Council. You really can’t get more a more authoritative statement than this.
Thank you!
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Sochi
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Well, first off, I’m not one of the ones making legalistic or canon arguments for or against married priests.
The one I made was purely practical.
I am not particularly an ideologue either…not prone to pronouncements about whether God’s judgements pivots on some nit-picking differentiation between various Christian sects…nor in fact among different religions for that matter. I find those mostly useless if not downright tiresome (not to mention smacking of arrogance at times).
So I guess you might be preachin’ to the choir here.
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seaton2005
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Not sure why you move off point and into abortion. The discussion is about priest celibacy.Well, they should be careful what they ask for, IMHO.
Meanwhile, looks to me like about 80% of catholic politicians in leadership roles support abortion. So forgive me if I’m not moved by the poll numbers.
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babochka
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I think the point is that popular opinion does not define what the Church teaches or finds acceptable.
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Abu
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Why the confusion as to how the abnormality developed into their “norm”?
, 16]The “apparent practice” can now be fully understood as a “seeming practice’ because it is only since Vatican II (mid-1960’s) that the reality of the Apostolic Norm has been thoroughly identified – in the remarkably scholarly studies of Fr. Christian Cochini, S.J.(1990); Alfons Maria Cardinal Stickler (1995); Fr. Stefan Heid, (2000).
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Abu
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Since the foundation by the Christ, His Church has been bound by His Constitution establishing a Papal Primacy and Infallibility.
To prognosticate that the teaching of the Son of God is not the highest knowledge is typical of the dreamer.
As Christ founded only His One True Church, as He taught, based on His Pope with His Apostles and disciples and their written testimony, the off-shoots, open to error like “Sochi”, confuse the truth.
The arrogance of those who reject the facts of reality based on historical witnesses and the historical evidence for Christ and His Resurrection, including the reality of the miracle at Fatima grudgingly attested by like non-religionists, shows the unreality of such expressions of mere feelings.
The high “malleability” of feeling based on antagonism to Christ’s teaching and His Church is well displayed.
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babochka
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Again, why does it matter anyway? In the Latin Church, the abnormality of Communion preceding Confirmation has apparently developed into a “norm” in spite of the clear apostolic practice to the contrary. We can accept your abnormal and novel developments, why can’t you accept ours? (Assuming that your characterization of the situation is accurate.)
The decree from the council does not say that it is an “apparent practice”, it says that it is apparent from the practice. Subtle difference, but important. Attention to detail is a worthy endeavor. Would you now rewrite the decrees of the council?
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seaton2005
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Priest celibacy is an institutional made rule. Throughout history, priests have not always been celebrant. On this thread there have been many that have made the argument that celibacy (i.e., non-married priests) can devote full time attention to serving Christ and his people. In essence, they allege that a celibate and non-married priest can serve more effective. That is a spurious and weak argument at best. With that logic let’s have celibate surgeons, police officers, firefighters, etc. That way they can better service their clientele - devote full time attention to serving the community. I think you can see how ridiculous that argument really is. In the end, priest celibacy, has everything to do with being a man made - institutional requirement. After all, there have been many protestant ministers that have not been celibate, and who have been married, and have done a pretty good job ministering. I point to Billy Graham, Franklin Graham, Martin Luther King Jr., TD Jakes, Rick Warren, etc. With that said, if that’s the rules of the Roman Catholic Church, they certainly have a right to make them and enforce them. No argument from me.
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Abu
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The difficulty with married priests is well illustrated by this factual account which is strong, and proclaims the reality:
**A Bishop’s Experience with Married Priests
VATICAN CITY, OCT 22, 1999 (ZENIT).- **At the Synod of Bishops for Europe Bishop Virgil Bercea of Oradea Mare of the Rumanians, is young, joyful, strong in faith, polite, candid, clear-thinking and certain. Like other countries of Eastern Europe, Rumania has Catholic priests of the Eastern rite who are married.
“Celibacy is not a problem for us, it is a choice,” Bishop Bercea said. “I think the debate that has taken place in the West is characterized by ignorance on the subject. In our Church, 20% of the priests of the Greek-Catholic rite are married, while the others, of the Latin rite, are celibate. In my diocese, I have married priests with children and, in general, they have more problems than the others, as those who are celibate can dedicate themselves full-time to the mission, while those who are married must give part of their time and concern to guide and support a family. I understand them and help them, but it must be admitted that family life is a huge commitment.”
**A Bishop’s Experience with Married Priests
VATICAN CITY, OCT 22, 1999 (ZENIT).- **At the Synod of Bishops for Europe Bishop Virgil Bercea of Oradea Mare of the Rumanians, is young, joyful, strong in faith, polite, candid, clear-thinking and certain. Like other countries of Eastern Europe, Rumania has Catholic priests of the Eastern rite who are married.
“Celibacy is not a problem for us, it is a choice,” Bishop Bercea said. “I think the debate that has taken place in the West is characterized by ignorance on the subject. In our Church, 20% of the priests of the Greek-Catholic rite are married, while the others, of the Latin rite, are celibate. In my diocese, I have married priests with children and, in general, they have more problems than the others, as those who are celibate can dedicate themselves full-time to the mission, while those who are married must give part of their time and concern to guide and support a family. I understand them and help them, but it must be admitted that family life is a huge commitment.”
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babochka
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You’ve brought up this factual, but anecdotal, tale more than once in this thread, but never responded to my criticism of your using it as some sort of definitive statement. This is one Bishop’s experience with a single aspect of married priests. Is the Bishop in question continuing to ordain married men to the priesthood, or is this problem such an issue that he is seeking only celibate candidates? This Bishop is hardly condemning the existence of married priests, he is simply and honestly acknowledging one difficulty. Is life not full of difficulties to be overcome? If you’re going to get into anecdotal stories, we must deal with the full range of lived experiences. I can give you plenty of positives to having a married priest. For example, a few months ago, I complimented my pastor on an excellent homily, one that touched me deeply and actually made a lasting change in my perspective on something. He told me his wife had helped him with what to say, as he’d been stumped the night before.
Now, this might shock and dismay you, that a priest might ask his wife’s help in this matter, but she possesses advanced degrees in theology and deep insight. She is an asset to him in this way. Celibate priests, while they would overwhelmingly choose the priesthood again, also admit to quite a bit of loneliness. Is this difficulty a reason to not choose the celibate life? Of course not! It is, however, a challenge to overcome.beliefnet.com/Faiths/Catholic/2001/10/Isolated-Life-Takes-Toll-On-New-Priests.aspx?p=2#
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Abu
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Another real life example of the reality of Christ’s preference for celibacy.
The Case for Priestly Celibacy
Re an Episcopalian priest who decided to convert to Catholicism:
‘As my bleary-eyed friend discovered at that early morning Mass, the sacraments of Holy Orders and matrimony are too consuming to allow for both. A married priest can’t help giving his first thoughts to his wife and children. To the extent he does so, he may be forgoing his priestly role as “father,” and people who call a married priest “father” would rightly get the idea that they are second in line as spiritual children. Paul understood this perfectly well when he wrote to the Corinthians, "For he who is without a wife is solicitous for the things that belong to the Lord, how he may please God. But he that is with a wife, is solicitous for the things of this world, how he may please his wife; and he is divided” (1 Cor 7:32-34).’
George Sim Johnston
This article originally appeared in the September 2006 issue of Crisis Magazine.
Printed with permission from InsideCatholic.com
catholicnewsagency.com/resources/apologetics/priestly-celibacy/the-case-for-priestly-celibacy/
The Case for Priestly Celibacy
Re an Episcopalian priest who decided to convert to Catholicism:
‘As my bleary-eyed friend discovered at that early morning Mass, the sacraments of Holy Orders and matrimony are too consuming to allow for both. A married priest can’t help giving his first thoughts to his wife and children. To the extent he does so, he may be forgoing his priestly role as “father,” and people who call a married priest “father” would rightly get the idea that they are second in line as spiritual children. Paul understood this perfectly well when he wrote to the Corinthians, "For he who is without a wife is solicitous for the things that belong to the Lord, how he may please God. But he that is with a wife, is solicitous for the things of this world, how he may please his wife; and he is divided” (1 Cor 7:32-34).’
George Sim Johnston
This article originally appeared in the September 2006 issue of Crisis Magazine.
Printed with permission from InsideCatholic.com
catholicnewsagency.com/resources/apologetics/priestly-celibacy/the-case-for-priestly-celibacy/
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babochka
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A tired man sees a tired priest… Bam!.. Suddenly he understands the church’s celibacy requirement. This, as opposed to the thousands of married priests heroically living out their dual vocations throughout Eastern Europe and the Middle East. I’m not saying this is wrong. In our culture, particularly in our parish cultures in the west, this doesn’t work very well. There are places where the culture is different and it has worked just fine for centuries.
wordonfire.org/WoF-Blog/WoF-Blog/March-2014/Ukraine-The-Icon-Corner-of-the-World.aspx
"My friends Fr. Peter and his wife Olenka keep an espresso cup and saucer perched in their icon corner. No Greek Catholic home is complete without the icon corner; it’s a sort of “altar” for the domestic church where God becomes a member of the family.
These pieces of plaster are, for Fr. Peter and Olenka, relics. They belonged to Olenka’s grandfather, Fr. Mychailo. He was a married Greek Catholic priest in Ukraine, as is the tradition of the Eastern Catholic churches. He and his family were backed against an ultimatum: renounce the Catholic faith or go to the gulag. Fr. Mychailo chose the martyr’s mile for himself and his family. Before they were sent to the trains, he ran to grab his “mass kit”—this cup and plate. With these humble vessels that he smuggled to the Far East, he served the Eucharist to his family and to the other confessors for the Catholic faith in prison camps for six years. "
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