If Protestantism Is True

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What I exactly deny is infallibility of the church on this matter. The church is only a wittness to the Canon being Scripture. The church itself is not infallible.

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Well…then by what authority are you able to deny the infallibility of the Church? Did God give you this authority to determine what is infallible and what is not?

If the Church is not infallible…then who is infallible? How is one to know what is error and what is not error?

For example…there is a Scripture passage…you interpret it one way…and your church interprets it the other way…so which will you follow…yourself or your church?

Will you submit to the authority of your church or not?
 
You are correct Jim. I have met many Protestants who tell me: It does not matter what church one belongs to because we are all Christians. They all cannot be correct.
But you would say that it doesn’t matter whether one is part of the Roman Catholic or Byzantine Catholic or Maronite Catholic church, right?

So you can’t simply dismiss the view that it doesn’t matter whether you are Baptist or Presbyterian or Catholic or Orthodox, because all of these churches are part of the One, Holy, Catholic, and Apostolic Church.

That view is very likely wrong, but it’s not self-evidently wrong on the face of it, just because these churches differ among themselves. I think this is one of the biggest fallacies in which Catholic apologists engage. Unity does not mean uniformity.

Now I in fact agree that Protestants are not one, and I think it’s possible to show this. But you have to do the work of actually showing Protestants how they are disunited, not just assuming that they are because they look disunited by your standards. Protestants are in a good deal of denial about their own disunity.

And–to be my usual contrarian self, because you’d be disappointed otherwise–your Communion isn’t perfectly united either. I’m not so concerned with the differences in theological opinion within your Communion, which upset many conservatives whether Catholic, Protestant, or Orthodox, but more with the fact that Catholics in a given place don’t all gather around one altar.

Edwin
 
But you would say that it doesn’t matter whether one is part of the Roman Catholic or Byzantine Catholic or Maronite Catholic church, right?

So you can’t simply dismiss the view that it doesn’t matter whether you are Baptist or Presbyterian or Catholic or Orthodox, because all of these churches are part of the One, Holy, Catholic, and Apostolic Church.

That view is very likely wrong, but it’s not self-evidently wrong on the face of it, just because these churches differ among themselves. I think this is one of the biggest fallacies in which Catholic apologists engage. Unity does not mean uniformity.

Now I in fact agree that Protestants are not one, and I think it’s possible to show this. But you have to do the work of actually showing Protestants how they are disunited, not just assuming that they are because they look disunited by your standards. Protestants are in a good deal of denial about their own disunity.

And–to be my usual contrarian self, because you’d be disappointed otherwise–your Communion isn’t perfectly united either. I’m not so concerned with the differences in theological opinion within your Communion, which upset many conservatives whether Catholic, Protestant, or Orthodox, but more with the fact that Catholics in a given place don’t all gather around one altar.
Edwin
Edwin,

This generality needs explaining.

The OHCAC gathers at the Eucharist and that of course is defined in the West and less defined in the East. From there the OHCAC is united in regenerative Baptism. The OHCAC is united on Scripture viewed through Tradition.

Explain what you mean by altar.
 
What I exactly deny is infallibility of the church on this matter.
Infallibility can mean a lot of things.
The church is only a wittness to the Canon being Scripture. The church itself is not infallible.
So is the canon, in principle, open for discussion, or isn’t it?

When a scholar says that 2 Peter was not written by Peter, do you dismiss the argument as obviously contrary to the faith, or do you take it seriously?

If you do the former, then you are treating the Church as de facto infallible, whether you want to use that word or not.
With respect to the Old Testament it must be determined of it was written by either a prophet of God or one who had the prophetic gift or was a prophet of God and had the prophetic gift.
How on earth would one determine this thousands of years later?
This is the basis of the Jewish OT Canon listing in the way books were specifically placed. With the NT it must be determined if it was written either by an Apostle or a direct delegate of an apostle or had the prophetic gift.
OK. So back to 2 Peter. When I read conservative arguments for Petrine authorship of 2 Peter, the absolute best they can do is show that the arguments against Petrine authorship are not conclusive (I agree, by the way, though the wholesale quotation of the book of Jude is puzzling, so I’d be inclined to take Ben Witherington’s suggestion seriously that 2 Peter includes a genuine letter of Peter along with other material). I have never seen a positive argument for the apostolicity of 2 Peter, except the fact that the early Church, after some debate, decided to accept it.
The internal evidence itself would include such things as historical details , doctrinal content and the spiritual quality of it in it’s message.
OK–so you were using “internal evidence” in the normal scholarly sense, which I should have figured out.
No I have not done that to each and every individual book. I used it on books which we disgaree on.
But why? That very choice doesn’t make sense if you aren’t taking the consensus of the historic Church for granted. What you are saying is that if Protestant tradition and Catholic tradition agree, you personally feel no need to question it. Doesn’t that mean, de facto, that you think Catholic tradition and Protestant tradition are infallible when combined?

Again, I know that infallibility can mean a lot of things. The reason I’m using the word here is that these are not just questions of opinion. They are questions of faith. We all believe that we ought to have faith in the Word of God. So when you accept a book as canonical, you are exercising faith, not just opinion.

Perhaps instead of the word “infallibility” we should use the term “proper object of faith.” (To me those things mean essentially the same–infallibility doesn’t confer absolute epistemological certainty, but it describes something which I accept on faith and do not consider subject to revision.)

Is the tradition of the Church a proper object of faith, or not?

In practice, we all act as if it is when we accept the 27-book canon of the NT.
They are first of all apostolic in orgin. They are written during a period of time which inspired books were being written. All those books are connected directly to the Apostle John
How on earth do you know this? Most modern historians question it. If you think most modern historians are wrong, why? Surely because they don’t start from a standpoint of faith? Faith in what, if not the tradition of the Church guided by the Spirit?
or in the case of Hebrews one who had the prophetic gift though we dont know who wrote it. While the author of Hebrews is unknown we know from it’s contents that the one who wrote it had the prophetic gift.
How do you know this?
With 3 John and the book of Revelation it was written by the apostle John.
How do you know this?
The book of Revelation itself claims to be a prophecy. I find no doctrinal or historical errors in them.
What you mean when you use this language is that, coming from an assumption of faith, you find the arguments against the authenticity of the book to be less than overwhelming.

On the face of it, a book written in the first century that says (Rev. 22:12, 20) that Jesus is coming soon (and indeed puts these words into the mouth of Jesus) contains an obvious historical error.

I’m not denying that there are ways of explaining this. I’m simply saying that if we were just looking for apparent historical errors, with no particular bias for or against a particular book, we’d label this quite quickly as an error.

Most historians think that the “number of the Beast” probably refers to Nero. Which would seem to mean that the author of the book thought that Nero was going to come back to life. We know that didn’t happen. (I grant that this isn’t a conclusive argument, but I am pretty confident that if you found these kinds of statements in the Apocrypha you’d be trumpeting them as obvious historical errors!)

Furthermore, Revelation’s canonicity was questioned by a lot of people, and even in the Reformation there was some doubt about it (Calvin never commented on it, for instance).

Your approach just doesn’t make sense. To put it bluntly, you cheat (just as the “spiral argument” Catholics do). You claim to be looking at the historical evidence fairly, but you really have a foregone conclusion up your sleeve all the time.

Edwin
 
Edwin,

This generality needs explaining.

The OHCAC gathers at the Eucharist and that of course is defined in the West and less defined in the East. From there the OHCAC is united in regenerative Baptism. The OHCAC is united on Scripture viewed through Tradition.

Explain what you mean by altar.
A fair point, given the Catholic teaching that the whole Church is present in every Eucharist.

But this is a “spiritualizing” teaching. A Protestant could similarly say “the whole Church is spiritually present in each congregation, so we’re really one.”

According to your Church, Protestants are united to the Church by baptism even if they have a muddled idea of how baptism works (I say “they” because Anglicans are substantially in agreement with Catholics on baptism). So that argument won’t work.

Of course official Catholic doctrine is “united” with itself. But that’s petitio principii. You assume that the boundary between necessary agreement and permissible unity is precisely where your Magisterium draws it–even though in fact there’s huge disagreement within your Communion not just about specific issues but even about where to draw that line itself.

Edwin
 
It seems to me that both Protestants and Catholics are living in glass houses on this issue. Would it not be fair to say that (conservative) Protestants accept the NT canon largely on the basis of faith?..a faith that assumes that God must have acted to ensure that an infallible/reliable record of his revelation would be preserved and recognized by his children with the result being the Bible (Assumption P). Would it not be fair to say that (conservative) Catholics accept the NT canon and what they designate as Sacred Tradition largely on the basis of faith?..a faith that assumes that God must have acted to ensure that an infallible/reliable record of his revelation would be preserved and recognized by his children and to ensure that his revelation would be infallibly interpreted with the result being the Bible, Sacred Tradition and a magisterium that infallibly interprets both (Assumption C).
The answer would seem to be that they merely make Assumption P and stop short of making Assumption C…or said another way, they believe God inspired the determination of the NT canon and not the doctrinal/interpretive framework . I don’t see how Assumption P provides any more of a problem for Protestants than Asssumption C provides for Catholics.
Because, historically speaking, canon formation was clearly part of the formation of the doctrinal framework. Early Christians had a “rule of faith” first, and laid out a canon in order to solve disputes over a rule of faith. The fact that they were willing to leave many canonical questions up in the air for several centuries (this is something that Catholics often oversimplify and misrepresent by saying “there was no Bible for 300 years”) indicates that they didn’t have the kinds of priorities that conservative Protestants assume they should have.

The problem with conservative Catholics isn’t their emphasis on church authority, but their framing of that emphasis in epistemological terms. However, this is only an incidental problem for Catholicism; I think it’s an essential problem for any form of conservative, confessional Protestantism (any form of Protestantism that wants to have fixed doctrines at all, that is).
Perhaps you think that the Catholics have an inadequate account of why they accept the authority of their Church
The conservative Catholic apologists popular on this forum do, yes. I shouldn’t paint with too broad a brush–Scott Hahn is immensely popular, and I think his covenantal approach has a lot of merit. But on the whole, the fact that the most popular Catholic apologists are ex-Reformed folks, or have cut their teeth arguing with Reformed and quasi-Reformed conservative Protestants, means that they typically argue with Protestants based on some of the same flawed principles the conservative, quasi-Reformed Protestants are using. And to be fair, 19th and early-20th-century Catholicism often took this kind of rationalistic approach without any direct impact from Protestants (the Catholic Encyclopedia uses the “spiral argument,” for instance).
I can, however, see how that same evidence would serve to establish the absence of God’s inspiration. For example, one could reasonably assert that inspiration would result in freedom from error.
Why? I think that’s presumptuous, though it’s a presumption that a lot of Christians make. God seems to have a predilection for using human instruments “warts and all.” I think that a lot of conservative Christianity tries to explain this away instead of accepting it joyfully and gratefully.
On that basis one could confidently assert that God did not inspire the production of 1 Clement based on the bits about the phoenix etc.
If the use of a scientifically inaccurate example to make a spiritual point excludes inspiration, I think we’ll have to exclude parts of canonical Scripture as well.
What is your starting point? Do you believe that everything that the early Church taught was without error? Do you believe that everything that the early Church taught was inspired? If not, must we not pick and choose as best we can?
No, no, and not really.

My starting point is continuity. We are Christians today because of the witness of the Church throughout 2000 years. Once we have been shaped by the Tradition, including the priorities found within the Tradition, we are then capable of asking critical questions about which of the things handed down to us are essential features of the Tradition and which are small “t” traditions that may be open to question.

How important these features were for the early Church is one important criterion, but not the only one.

One may certainly say that the early Church was right in exalting Scripture but wrong in other things. One might even say that it happened to get all the specific books right but got other things wrong–but this is not a very probable result and needs to have very good arguments supporting it, given how loosey-goosey the early Christians were about the precise boundaries of the canon. In other words, my quarrel here is indeed with conservative Protestants who think that the absolute, fixed, certain starting point for one’s faith is a closed, divinely inspired, infallible (or even inerrant) canon of Scripture.

That position is incoherent. It collapses under its own weight.
 
Do you believe that the historical/external evidence calls into question the inspiration of 2 Peter in the same way and to the same degree that it calls into question the inspiration/ divine establishment of apostolic succession?
Considerably more so. I think there are much better arguments for apostolic succession than for the apostolicity of 2 Peter. The historical objections to apostolic succession are to specific features like a monarchical episcopate in Rome. But the principle survives quite well in the absence of these features. The best explanation of the strong hierarchy that emerged in the early 2nd century is that these leaders really were known to have been appointed by the apostles. There are plenty of nuances one needs to make to this theory, and contemporary scholars have an ideological bias against it, but it seems to me that (taken in its essentials) there are good arguments for it and no reasonable ones against it. (The scholars who pooh-pooh it have no evidence except the mere existence of other groups claiming to be Christian.)
You don’t seem to be saying that if one accepts one conclusion of the early Church, then one must accept all conclusions of the early Church made up to that time.
No indeed. What I am saying is that if you not only accept but make absolutely central and foundational to your faith one particular complex, lengthy, and contentious decision-making process of the early Church, you need to come up with some very strong arguments indeed for why you don’t start in general by giving the benefit of the doubt to the principles and methods of the early “Catholic” Church, including points such as apostolic succession, baptismal regeneration, the necessity of church unity, the possibility of losing one’s faith after baptism, and so on. If one starts from that starting point, most of the distinctive Protestant arguments don’t look very cogent. Classical Protestants claim to treat the authority of the early Church with respect, but in fact what they do is run it through the lens of the Reformation. The conclusions of the Reformers (or, for more radical Protestants, certain particular conclusions taken out of their sixteenth-century context) are taken for granted, and the Fathers are accepted insofar as they agree. Once Protestants start doing things the other way round, Protestantism as a distinctive form of Christianity, with clear doctrinal differences from Catholicism and Orthodoxy, cannot survive.
On the other hand, you seem to be suggesting that if one accepts one conclusion of the early Church (the canonicity of 2 Peter), then one should accept all conclusions of the early Church (to that point in time?) that were contested less virgorously (apostolic succession). That too is a flawed assertion. The presence of divine inspiration is determined by what God did/is doing and not by how much men did or did not argue about the thing.
But this assumes that we have some independent access to divine inspiration apart from the historic testimony of the Church. I am not saying that we accept that testimony blindly. Rather, we “think with it”–we put ourselves within it and see if it makes sense. If certain bits of it don’t make sense, we see if we can tweak it without the whole thing collapsing. If the whole thing collapses, I don’t think we have anything that can be called Christianity in any sense that Mormonism, say, can’t.

This process of thinking with the historic Church is not something against which divine inspiration can be placed, because our access to divine inspiration is not independent of that process–it’s part of the process (including, possibly, part of the process of thinking critically about and “tweaking” it).
Further, the external evidence is not the same with respect to the the canonicity of 2 Peter and the doctrine of apostolic succession.
As I said, that’s indeed the case–the arguments for the latter are stronger:D
One could easily understand the latter to have developed because the Church was growing within the Roman empire and therefore it adopted Roman style governance and ideas regarding the succession of authority. On that basis it could be seen as an uninspired development.
If you reject something as “uninspired” if it makes cultural sense, then I think you will wind up with not much that is inspired. Jesus makes a lot of sense as a Second Temple Jew–does that mean that He wasn’t the Son of God? Actually I’m not at all sure that I can think of any particularly Roman idea that links up with apostolic succession. Romans were certainly concerned with order, and I suppose one could say that the method of succession used by the “five good emperors,” who reigned during most of the second century, looks a lot like the method the second-century Catholic Christians claimed the apostles had used. But one could also argue that it looks similar because it’s a commonsense way of handing on authority–find someone trustworthy and give them authority. There really isn’t any more to apostolic succession, at its core, than that.

I think the hidden assumption in your argument is really that an “inspired” model would have looked more like our cultural model (i.e., democracy) and less like a model appropriate for the culture in which Christianity began. I reject that assumption. Furthermore, in fact bishops were elected by the people in the early Church. If you want to argue that later Catholics have unreasonably rejected that part of the early Christian model while keeping the more authoritarian parts, I’m with you! (Though I’m not willing to make election a criterion of validity.)
On the other hand, one could conclude that Peter definitely did not have a hand in the writing of 2 Peter based on textual criticism
It’s not really textual criticism, but yes, based on normal historical methods of analyzing texts (the most solid argument being the parallel with Jude). No reductionistic cultural assumptions such as the ones you seem to be using above are necessarily operating (though some come into play nonetheless).
Given the difference it is easy to envision that error could arise in one area without arising in the other…or said another way, it is easy to see how God could have his hand on one area without having his hand also on the other area.
God could do a lot of things. The question is what God *did do.

*If you start with Protestant assumptions, then it makes sense that God would care more about the canon than about church government. But those were clearly not the assumptions of the early Church. And the Protestant assumptions themselves (to use your argument above) have some pretty obvious cultural roots: medieval scholasticism (itself influenced to some degree by Islam, arguably), Renaissance humanism, and the political agenda of undercutting church hierarchy in order to facilitate the rise of the early modern state as a consolidated, unified center of power with no effective rivals.

In other words, we either start with the assumptions of people 1500 years after Christianity began, or we start with the assumptions of the early Christians (or we start with our own cultural assumptions, which is a bad idea because those will influence us more than is appropriate even if we don’t consciously give them any role whatsoever).

To me the latter seems the obvious choice. It’s not about blindly following everything the early Christians said, or mechanically finding some formula for determining which things we follow blindly–it’s about starting with their starting point instead of that of sixteenth-century would-be Reformers for whom the centrality of a fixed text was culturally obvious.
Finally, as the centuries pass (and more and more doctrine is added), I think it becomes easier to find external evidence that challenges Assumption C
Or that confirms it. There’s plenty of both, as in any such matter (the inspiration of Scripture, for instance, or even the resurrection of Jesus). But I would say that the past twenty centuries have done more to confirm than to challenge the proposition that Jesus established an authoritative, unified Church. The fact that recent Popes have been such eloquent proclaimers of the Gospel, 500 years after it seemed obvious to many devout and learned people that the Papacy had decisively abandoned the Gospel, is one of the most powerful confirmations for me. But I’m a scholar of the Reformation, so that’s naturally my focus. . . . .

Edwin
 
Hi,

Would you expand on this statement?
Do I have to?😃

It’s one of those tired topics that gets kicked around here incessantly.

It could mean “there will always be faithful Christians”; or “the Church will eventually overcome the forces of evil, whatever vicissitudes happen between now and then” (as many commentators have pointed out, “gates” are defensive structures); or something along those lines.

Sure, you can make an argument for why the promise makes sense if the Church is infallible. But that’s not the same thing as saying that Jesus promised infallibility.

Infallibility is such a complex, nuanced concept, anyway.

Why, for instance, would it mean infallibility and not impeccability? Why would doctrinal error taught in a particular, official way be the only thing excluded?

This may be the right interpretation. But it’s not the obvious one.

Edwin
 
Because, historically speaking, canon formation was clearly part of the formation of the doctrinal framework. Early Christians had a “rule of faith” first, and laid out a canon in order to solve disputes over a rule of faith. The fact that they were willing to leave many canonical questions up in the air for several centuries (this is something that Catholics often oversimplify and misrepresent by saying “there was no Bible for 300 years”) indicates that they didn’t have the kinds of priorities that conservative Protestants assume they should have.
Explain how Catholics misrepresent or oversimply: There was no Bible for 300 years.

Last time I checked,there was no official canonized text until after 300 AD.
 
Explain how Catholics misrepresent or oversimply: There was no Bible for 300 years.

Last time I checked,there was no official canonized text until after 300 AD.
Defining “the Bible” as “an official canonized text with no further debates about any of the books in it” is an oversimplified, if not actually distorted definition of the “Bible.” People had been talking about “the Scriptures” for centuries before that. It makes no sense to limit “the Bible” to this definition, except that that lets you score some polemical points.

And I know you’ll dispute this, but in fact there were debates about some books throughout the Middle Ages (more in the East than the West, but there too), so arguably there wasn’t a “Bible” by your definition until Trent. (Yes, I know that Trent confirmed what had long been the de facto canon, but the same could be said of the late-fourth-century local councils.)

Perhaps the problem is the use of the term “the Bible” instead of “the Scriptures.” I wonder when the singular was first used–definitely before the Reformation, because I remember Piers Plowman referring to “the book Bible.” But perhaps in some sense we could say that “the Bible” as opposed to “the Scriptures” was a Protestant invention!

Can we agree, at least, that there were Scriptures long before the fourth century?

Edwin
 
Can we agree, at least, that there were Scriptures long before the fourth century?

Edwin
I call my first witness:

Justin Martyr
CHAPTER XXXI – OF THE HEBREW PROPHETS.
There were, then, among the Jews certain men who were prophets of God, through whom the prophetic Spirit published beforehand things that were to come to pass, ere ever they happened. And their prophecies, as they were spoken and when they were uttered, the kings who happened to be reigning among the Jews at the several times carefully preserved in their possession, when they had been arranged in books by the prophets themselves in their own Hebrew language. And when Ptolemy king of Egypt formed a library, and endeavoured to collect the writings of all men, he heard also of these prophets, and sent to Herod, who was at that time king of the Jews, requesting that the books of the prophets be sent to him. And Herod the king did indeed send them, written, as they were, in the foresaid Hebrew language. And when their contents were found to be unintelligible to the Egyptians, he again sent and requested that men be commissioned to translate them into the Greek language. And when this was done, the books remained with the Egyptians, where they are until now. They are also in the possession of all Jews throughout the world; but they, though they read, do not understand what is said, but count us foes and enemies; and, like yourselves, they kill and punish us whenever they have the power, as you can well believe. For in the Jewish war which lately raged, Barchochebas, the leader of the revolt of the Jews, gave orders that Christians alone should be led to cruel punishments, unless they would deny Jesus Christ and utter blasphemy. In these books, then, of the prophets we found Jesus our Christ foretold as coming, born of a virgin, growing up to man’s estate, and healing every disease and every sickness, and raising the dead, and being hated, and unrecognised, and crucified, and dying, and rising again, and ascending into heaven, and being, and being called, the Son of God. We find it also predicted that certain persons should be sent by Him into every nation to publish these things, and that rather among the Gentiles [than among the Jews] men should believe on Him. And He was predicted before He appeared, first 5000 years before, and again 3000, then 2000, then 1000, and yet again 800; for in the succession of generations prophets after prophets arose.
CHAPTER LXVII – WEEKLY WORSHIP OF THE CHRIS- TIANS.
And we afterwards continually remind each other of these things. And the wealthy among us help the needy; and we always keep together; and for all things wherewith we are supplied, we bless the Maker of all through His Son Jesus Christ, and through the Holy Ghost. And on the day called Sunday, all who live in cities or in the country gather together to one place, and the memoirs of the apostles or the writings of the prophets are read, as long as time permits; then, when the reader has ceased, the president verbally instructs, and exhorts to the imitation of these good things. Then we all rise together and pray, and, as we before said, when our prayer is ended, bread and wine and water are brought, and the president in like manner offers prayers and thanksgivings, according to his ability, and the people assent, saying Amen; and there is a distribution to each, and a participation of that over which thanks have been given, and to those who are absent a portion is sent by the deacons. And they who are well to do, and willing, give what each thinks fit; and what is collected is deposited with the president, who succours the orphans and widows and those who, through sickness or any other cause, are in want, and those who are in bonds and the strangers sojourning among us, and in a word takes care of all who are in need. But Sunday is the day on which we all hold our common assembly, because it is the first day on which God, having wrought a change in the darkness and matter, made the world; and Jesus Christ our Saviour on the same day rose from the dead. For He was crucified on the day before that of Saturn (Saturday); and on the day after that of Saturn, which is the day of the Sun, having appeared to His apostles and disciples, He taught them these things, which we have submitted to you also for your consideration.
We can definitely agree with that Edwin 🙂

In Him,

Jose
 
Defining “the Bible” as “an official canonized text with no further debates about any of the books in it” is an oversimplified, if not actually distorted definition of the “Bible.” People had been talking about “the Scriptures” for centuries before that. It makes no sense to limit “the Bible” to this definition, except that that lets you score some polemical points.

And I know you’ll dispute this, but in fact there were debates about some books throughout the Middle Ages (more in the East than the West, but there too), so arguably there wasn’t a “Bible” by your definition until Trent. (Yes, I know that Trent confirmed what had long been the de facto canon, but the same could be said of the late-fourth-century local councils.)

Perhaps the problem is the use of the term “the Bible” instead of “the Scriptures.” I wonder when the singular was first used–definitely before the Reformation, because I remember Piers Plowman referring to “the book Bible.” But perhaps in some sense we could say that “the Bible” as opposed to “the Scriptures” was a Protestant invention!

Can we agree, at least, that there were Scriptures long before the fourth century?

Edwin
I totally understand what you are saying. Yes the written scriptures did exist before the fourth century. Perhaps the confusion lies when the terms “Bible” or “canon” or “Scriptures” are used in debates by both sides. But I agree. 👍
 
Infallibility is such a complex, nuanced concept, anyway.

Why, for instance, would it mean infallibility and not impeccability? Why would doctrinal error taught in a particular, official way be the only thing excluded?

This may be the right interpretation. But it’s not the obvious one.

Edwin
Easier to view what infallible is not. Your word “official” would be closer to truth in its proper context. All that is happening is in a complex Christianity the Church umpires the game thus “official”.

If we are to say the Bible is a living testament then so to is the Church in its Apostolic roots and their extensions. As each era brings different issues to the table, clarification is needed.

The USA and Obama would be the most recent I can think of thus religious freedom etc. Though not a great example. There will always be those who agree or disagree. Infallible developed from indefectibility which the ancient Church strongly upheld and supported. The fact that after the 5th century Communion broke down then so to did the effectiveness of this thinking, examples are there such as with Cyprian, Irenaeus and so forth. Thus No Salvation outside the Church etc. As we see in the early church as opposed to todays thinking.

Infallible isn’t more of an issue its actually less of an issue and not as boldly proclaimed which it would be when Communion resides. When is the only question which I believe becomes resolved with need as opposed to want.

IMHO I don’t view it as an issue and rarely dwell on it. Catholic’s spend about as much thinking about this as Anglicans spend on Henry XIII.
 
Defining “the Bible” as “an official canonized text with no further debates about any of the books in it” is an oversimplified, if not actually distorted definition of the “Bible.” People had been talking about “the Scriptures” for centuries before that. It makes no sense to limit “the Bible” to this definition, except that that lets you score some polemical points.

And I know you’ll dispute this, but in fact there were debates about some books throughout the Middle Ages (more in the East than the West, but there too), so arguably there wasn’t a “Bible” by your definition until Trent. (Yes, I know that Trent confirmed what had long been the de facto canon, but the same could be said of the late-fourth-century local councils.)

Perhaps the problem is the use of the term “the Bible” instead of “the Scriptures.” I wonder when the singular was first used–definitely before the Reformation, because I remember Piers Plowman referring to “the book Bible.” But perhaps in some sense we could say that “the Bible” as opposed to “the Scriptures” was a Protestant invention!
Can we agree, at least, that there were Scriptures long before the fourth century?

Edwin
Edwin,

Your view appears to be satisfying. It should cause those that proclaim the “Bible alone” as something that was never believed and never taught since as you say the Bible as we speak of it today was a Protestant invention.

Too many of those distant from the denominations are taught, believe and are seen here posting from time to time that the Bible is today what it was yesterday and as you point out that is just not true.

There are no debates as far as I know as to what is to be included in what we call the Bible today. The only issue is how do Protestant prove that what is in the Bible came to be in the Bible. The debates having come to an end should cause some pause.
 
Justin Martyr:
And on the day called Sunday, all who live in cities or in the country gather together to one place, and the memoirs of the apostles or the writings of the prophets are read, as long as time permits; then, when the reader has ceased, the president verbally instructs, and exhorts to the imitation of these good things.
I always find the liturgical practices of the early Church to be quite fascinating. I know the Orthodox claim that there liturgy is largely unchanged since the fathers, but even their service doesn’t quite match up to this description. And the times I have visited Mass, I have seen extreme focus on the Eucharist:thumbsup: but comparatively little focus on Scripture. I know there are logistical reasons for this, and most American churches have been trained to think a 4 hour church service is one of the more abominable things imaginable. But the seeming change from the description Justin Martyr offers makes me a little sad and makes me wonder what the theological justification for such a shift would be.
 
And the times I have visited Mass, I have seen extreme focus on the Eucharist:thumbsup: but comparatively little focus on Scripture.
I say this with all respect, Taestron, but perhaps you don’t see the “focus on Scripture” in the Mass because you are relatively unfamiliar with Scripture?

For if you knew the Bible, you would see that practically every single thing that’s done in the Mass comes from Scripture.
 
I always find the liturgical practices of the early Church to be quite fascinating. I know the Orthodox claim that there liturgy is largely unchanged since the fathers, but even their service doesn’t quite match up to this description. And the times I have visited Mass,** I have seen extreme focus on the Eucharist:thumbsup: but comparatively little focus on Scripture.** I know there are logistical reasons for this, and most American churches have been trained to think a 4 hour church service is one of the more abominable things imaginable. But the seeming change from the description Justin Martyr offers makes me a little sad and makes me wonder what the theological justification for such a shift would be.
I have a different perception. The introductory rites and Liturgy of the Word are an immersion in scripture. So, too is the Liturgy of the Eucharist.

catholic-resources.org/ChurchDocs/Mass.htm

Jon
 
I always find the liturgical practices of the early Church to be quite fascinating. I know the Orthodox claim that there liturgy is largely unchanged since the fathers, but even their service doesn’t quite match up to this description. And the times I have visited Mass, **I have seen extreme focus on the Eucharist:thumbsup: but comparatively little focus on Scripture. ** I know there are logistical reasons for this, and most American churches have been trained to think a 4 hour church service is one of the more abominable things imaginable. But the seeming change from the description Justin Martyr offers makes me a little sad and makes me wonder what the theological justification for such a shift would be.
Tae,

You are absoultely correct. The Eucharist/Jesus is the focus of the Mass and what unites the OHCAC. You do have me thinking a bit. Help me out here concerning your visits. The Mass in its totality. Everything from start to finish. Did Catholics just make it up and put a little bit of the Bible here and a little there with a focus on the Eucharist or is there a possibility that everything start to finish comes right from Scripture. What do you think…?

I will make it easy for you. Protestants preach. Catholics preach. Protestants read passages of the Bible in service and Catholics read passages of the Bible in service, usually OT, Psalms, Epistles and then Gospel.

Now sort out everything else that happens in between the preaching and readings and you will have your answer for the Mass…gotta have your (name removed by moderator)ut.
 
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