If push comes to shove I choose conscience over Church teaching

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anon10271182 said:
However, his stated atheism, or agnosticism, means that I have no time for reading him, and certainly no interest in joining his cult of oersonality.
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I agree the cult of his personality is a concern. However he has some very important psychological insights, which re-affirm spiritual and Christian truths. He’s an interesting guy but he needs to relax. He’s too obsessive.
 
which proves my point. Catholicism and following the Gospels is idealism. the bar is very high. Most of us never reach it. I’m not saying we shouldn’t try. But we shouldn’t be disappointed if don’t get there. (sainthood)
 
Let’s bring it to todays world. If you hinder anyone because you believe you’re a better person you are wrong; it goes to the dignity of life.

If you are asked to assist in hurting a person because he/she is “different” you can omit the truth about the knowledge of his/her whereabouts.

Say, I’m Dominican (which I am), if you assist someone in harming me (loss of job/opportunity of employment, etc.) because I’m Dominican you are committing an act of violence against me; if you know that someone is bent on hurting me because I’m Dominican and you abstain from assisting in such persecution you may omit the truth about knowing that I’m Dominican because you are concerned with my dignity of life.

Sadly, many people jump on the wagon to hurt others either out of greed, envy or fear (‘better him them me’).

Yet, a sin is a sin–regardless of the situation.

Maran atha!

Angel
 
I have a movie called Padre Pio - great movie. In it, he is constantly taking the jewels off of statues in the church and giving it to poor people. I don’t think the jewels were his but he saw a more pressing need. Not sure if it was a completely accurate depiction of what he did, but I always liked that he did it.

When his superior asks him who took them, he responds, " Maybe it was the Madonna, who saw that these poor families needed the jewels more than she did"

Loved it!
 
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jcrichton said:
Say, I’m Dominican (which I am), if you assist someone in harming me (loss of job/opportunity of employment, etc.) because I’m Dominican you are committing an act of violence against me; if you know that someone is bent on hurting me because I’m Dominican and you abstain from assisting in such persecution you may omit the truth about knowing that I’m Dominican because you are concerned with my dignity of life.
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Your earlier example involved a direct lie, not an omission. You’re twisting definitions to justify your own moral vision.
 
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Sure, it does depend on what options are available. I did qualify my statement by “if you have no other way of survival”, after all. The point is that the act of taking something that is owned by someone else does not constitute an intrinsic evil.

Also, In some places, begging will do you no good. Try begging in Venezuela, given its current situation, for example.
 
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Do you know what it means?

I am Calling the Lord to Come!

Removing such call to pacify a conflictive mind/heart is far more damaging than a bruised ego.

I hope my exchanges, as hardline as you may find them, help you to give up on some of those liberal values that you uphold as “freedom” to express yourself and to be.

Here are two red flags for you: you stumped on a poster for her attempt to clarify and issue with another poster and you recognized that how you project yourself may be misunderstood by others and even dislocated from your true values/meaning.

Growth is often hard and painful.

Maran atha!

Angel
 
I’ve read arguments by people who study Aquinas that though he was against lying (being a sin), but he argued that you could omit the truth without lying. If the Nazis asked you if you were hiding Jews, and you were, it would be a lie to say you weren’t. But according to the thought of Aquinas, you could say, are you crazy? Why would I be hiding jews? Never actually lying. Never actually answering the question.

Or something like “That would be so foolish of me to do”!
 
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Even in Venezuela, does stealing food harm no one? What about the person from whom the food is stolen? Who determines whether their victimization is justified?
I’m not saying that all stealing carries equal gravity of sinfulness. But if it’s stealing, there is by definition a victim of theft.
And I believe all stealing, however petty and however necessary it seems, must be confessed. Otherwise we’re back to, " my conscience trumps Divine law."
 
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una_ecclesia said:
This isn’t quite true. Read up on some Aquinas and the universal destination of goods. Taking food from someone who had it because you have no other way of survival is actually considered legitimate. See also CCC 2408
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Wait, so if I brake into someone’s house to feed myself I am fully found inculpable of theft?

Maran atha!

Angel
 
goodcatholic said:
I think we need to dig deep often. Not just “oh what is the rule here? forgive …ok forgive.” that is kind of superficial in my way of thinking. We need to pray on the spot for discernment…
I respect Church teachings but I don’t see a need to follow them to the letter of the law all the time. The spirit of the law is more important too.
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What situation do you imagine that forgiveness should not occur?
 
I agree with that strategy. That’s not what the poster I responded to was saying though. He knows it would be wrong to betray the hypothetical Jews he had hidden, but he also thinks you can’t lie under any circumstance. So, he’s justifying lying by saying it’s not lying because having human dignity makes Jews not Jews, for some reason.

That’s not a clever circumvention. It’s mental gymnastics.
 
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Sure it does. Probably much less so if you take from one who has though. My guess would be that if you have no other options, you go for a source where there is little harm done. Taking from the one who had even less or as much as you would seem to go contrary to the pint behind the universal destination of goods anyway.

(On a different note, Venezuela doesn’t really have much to begin with these days. There really is no social structure or rule of law there any more. I’ll also add that if that people have to resort to stealing to survive, the country is definitely dysfunctional… )

Again, I’m talking about last resort stuff.
 
There’s no doubt that forgiveness can be a great difficulty. If somebody can forgive instantly, then they don’t know what it means to have difficulty forgiving.
 
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