If Rome is wrong, where do you go?

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Metaron said:
Huh??? :confused: Who on Earth told you those lies?
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No lie, here it is.

Pope Says: Trips to Lourdes to cut time spent in purgatory
Pope Benedict XVI is offering relief from purgatory to Roman Catholics who travel to Lourdes over the next year, the Vatican said yesterday.
Pilgrims to the shrine in south-west France will receive “plenary indulgences” from the Pontiff, which the Church says reduce the time spent being “washed” of sin after death. The indulgences will be available from this weekend until Dec 8, 2008.
The Church teaches that people who do not go directly to heaven must spend time in purgatory, where they can be purified of residual sin.
It is the latest initiative to get more pilgrims to the shrine, famous for the reported healing properties of its water. In August the Vatican opened an airline service offering pilgrims direct flights from Rome to Lourdes .
For those who cannot make the journey to France , the Pope will also grant indulgences to Catholics who pray at places of worship dedicated to the Madonna of Lourdes from Feb 2 to Feb 11. Indulgences may also be granted under special circumstances to people too sick to visit the shrine, the Vatican said.
The offer comes as the shrine prepares to commemorate the 150th anniversary of when the Madonna was said to have appeared to a peasant girl in 1858.
The Pope is expected to visit next year, possibly in September or October.
telegraph.co.uk/news/main.jhtml?xml=/news/2007/12/06/wpope106.xml
 
abcd said:
No lie, here it is.

Pope Says: Trips to Lourdes to cut time spent in purgatory
Pope Benedict XVI is offering relief from purgatory to Roman Catholics who travel to Lourdes over the next year, the Vatican said yesterday.
Pilgrims to the shrine in south-west France will receive “plenary indulgences” from the Pontiff, which the Church says reduce the time spent being “washed” of sin after death. The indulgences will be available from this weekend until Dec 8, 2008.
The Church teaches that people who do not go directly to heaven must spend time in purgatory, where they can be purified of residual sin.
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I wasn’t denying this part of your claim. I already knew that the Pope did this. And of course I know what the Church teaches about Purgatory. I totally agree with it too. :rolleyes:

You still didn’t back up the other false claims. Like, all people go to heaven claim. or Muslims go to heaven claim. or anything like that.
 
Isa_Almisry said:
Constantinople, Alexandria, Antioch, Jerusalem, Moscow, Belgrade, Sofia, Prague, Warsaw, Washington, Athens, Bucharest, Tblisi, Nicosia, Tirana, St. Catherine’s.

Same answer.

So the same place.
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What is the point of this thread? Perhaps a review of rule number 8 is in order.

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abcd said:
No lie, here it is.

Pope Says: Trips to Lourdes to cut time spent in purgatory
Pope Benedict XVI is offering relief from purgatory to Roman Catholics who travel to Lourdes over the next year, the Vatican said yesterday.
Pilgrims to the shrine in south-west France will receive “plenary indulgences” from the Pontiff, which the Church says reduce the time spent being “washed” of sin after death. The indulgences will be available from this weekend until Dec 8, 2008.
The Church teaches that people who do not go directly to heaven must spend time in purgatory, where they can be purified of residual sin.
It is the latest initiative to get more pilgrims to the shrine, famous for the reported healing properties of its water. In August the Vatican opened an airline service offering pilgrims direct flights from Rome to Lourdes .
For those who cannot make the journey to France , the Pope will also grant indulgences to Catholics who pray at places of worship dedicated to the Madonna of Lourdes from Feb 2 to Feb 11. Indulgences may also be granted under special circumstances to people too sick to visit the shrine, the Vatican said.
The offer comes as the shrine prepares to commemorate the 150th anniversary of when the Madonna was said to have appeared to a peasant girl in 1858.
The Pope is expected to visit next year, possibly in September or October.
telegraph.co.uk/news/main.jhtml?xml=/news/2007/12/06/wpope106.xml
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Wow, 4 posts in and your guns are blazin’ against the Catholic Church and the Pope already. Very strange that you picked this thread to do it.
 
Metaron said:
I wasn’t denying this part of your claim. I already knew that the Pope did this. And of course I know what the Church teaches about Purgatory. I totally agree with it too. :rolleyes:

You still didn’t back up the other false claims. Like, all people go to heaven claim. or Muslims go to heaven claim. or anything like that.
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Ok well what about this?

cephas-library.com/catholic/catholic_heaven_for_all_says_pope.html

Note this part specifically:
He said at an audience that “all of the just on Earth, including those who ignore Christ and his Church”

Keywords: Ignore Christ

Also this part: Heaven is open to all as long as they are good.

So where does God fit in here then? Or does he at all?
 
jam070406 said:
What is the point of this thread? Perhaps a review of rule number 8 is in order.
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I don’t think so. He didn’t say “I think you should leave XYZ church” or “this is the reason you should leave XYZ church” or “come to my church”.

A Protestant might have easily have said “you could go to Lutherans, or Presbyterians, Methodists, etc.” That’s not proselytizing. Plus, you would have all kinds of opportunities to bash them.

He made a point. This is your chance to refute his statement with a counter.

The topic seems to be about the unique claims of Rome, and I think that it is a topic worthy of discussion, don’t you? In the east all bishops are considered successors of Peter in the way western Christians think of the bishop of Rome uniquely. That happens to be a fact.

At Belgrade and Ravenna this has been discussed, why not here?

Pope John Paul II (blessed memory!) has asked that we help redefine the Petrine ministry. There is a lot of ground to cover here.

Anyway, that’s how I see it.
*
Michael*
 
Hesychios said:
I don’t think so. He didn’t say “I think you should leave XYZ church” or “this is the reason you should leave XYZ church” or “come to my church”.

A Protestant might have easily have said “you could go to Lutherans, or Presbyterians, Methodists, etc.” That’s not proselytizing. Plus, you would have all kinds of opportunities to bash them.

He made a point. This is your chance to refute his statement with a counter.

The topic seems to be about the unique claims of Rome, and I think that it is a topic worthy of discussion, don’t you? In the east all bishops are considered successors of Peter in the way western Christians think of the bishop of Rome uniquely. That happens to be a fact.

At Belgrade and Ravenna this has been discussed, why not here?

Pope John Paul II (blessed memory!) has asked that we help redefine the Petrine ministry. There is a lot of ground to cover here.

Anyway, that’s how I see it.
*
Michael*
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As OP, I have to concur.

As I stated already, I didn’t make up the title. I have seen the question asked by Latins in several posts, and then other Latins picking up the challenge and reiterating it as if we had no answer.

To be complete, what the Latins stated was to the effect “If Rome is right, you know where to go. But if Rome is wrong, where do you go?”

I just posted to show that we Orthodox know where we are going.
 
flyersfan1088 said:
You apparently don’t follow this Father

St. Optatus of Milevis writing in 367A.D.

You cannot deny that you are aware that in the city of Rome the episcopal chair was given first to Peter; the chair in which Peter sat, the same who was head-that is why he is also called Cephas- of all the Apostles; the one chair in which unity is maintained by all. Neither do other Apostles proceed individually on their own; and anyone who would set up another chair in opposition to that single chair would, by that very fact, be a schismatic and a sinner…I but ask you to recall the origins of your chair, you who wish to claim for yourselves the title of Holy Church.
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What do you mean by follow?

Optatus makes much of the chair of Peter and then misidentifies who sat on it. Doesn’t inspire confidence:

forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?t=200403&page=8

post 120.
 
flyersfan1088 said:
Is that all the defense you can muster? Slight of hand is what you’re attempting. Bring attention to the list of Popes and maybe everyone will forget what it CLEARLY says about the primacy of Rome.
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You’ve had a number of “antipopes” running around at times. Does what he CLEARLY says about the primacy of Rome apply to them?

As I stated, it does not inspire confidence that banks the whole Church on one see, and then doesn’t pay attention to who is the bishop of that See. Particularly as he is writing against schismatics.
 
Isa_Almisry said:
You’ve had a number of “antipopes” running around at times. Does what he CLEARLY says about the primacy of Rome apply to them?

As I stated, it does not inspire confidence that banks the whole Church on one see, and then doesn’t pay attention to who is the bishop of that See. Particularly as he is writing against schismatics.
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You’re still avoiding the 800 pound gorilla, and it’s obvious for everyone to see.
 
flyersfan1088 said:
You’re still avoiding the 800 pound gorilla, and it’s obvious for everyone to see.
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Of course, you haven’t identified which gorilla is really the 800 pound one.:eek:

But ee’ll wrestle with any gorilla that claims to weigh 800 pounds.

First, Optatus is in Rome patriarchate.

The problem in the Roman patriarchate was it basically had one See founded by the Apostles. In Constantinople, Antioch and Jerusalem there were several each (Alexandria, may also have cornered the market on Apostles in Egypt).

Rome could claim the other Churches in her patriarchate as daughters, but she could not the sees of the East (Egypt again forming an exception): they preceded her.

These sees in the West derived their orders from Rome, and received their pallium from Rome. The sees in the East did not.

So in that context (remember, he’s addressing Westerners) his claims seem plausible. Of course, provided he figures out who the real Pope of Rome is.
 
I knew when I converted to Catholicism that I could never accept Protestant Christianity–so as far as I am concerned, if Rome is wrong then all of Christianity is wrong. Where would I go? I have no idea. But I know where I would not go.
 
Isa_Almisry said:
Rome could claim the other Churches in her patriarchate as daughters, but she could not the sees of the East (Egypt again forming an exception): they preceded her.

These sees in the West derived their orders from Rome, and received their pallium from Rome. The sees in the East did not.
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Not true

Here’s the 800 pound gorilla

Neither do other Apostles proceed individually on their own; and anyone who would set up another chair in opposition to that single chair would, by that very fact, be a schismatic and a sinner…

Please reconcile this.
 
flyersfan1088 said:
Not true

Here’s the 800 pound gorilla

Neither do other Apostles proceed individually on their own; and anyone who would set up another chair in opposition to that single chair would, by that very fact, be a schismatic and a sinner…

Please reconcile this.
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If you are going to quote someone you have to give the citation. If you quote Optatus of Milevi then state that he said it and in what work.
 
flyersfan1088 said:
Not true

Here’s the 800 pound gorilla

Neither do other Apostles proceed individually on their own; and anyone who would set up another chair in opposition to that single chair would, by that very fact, be a schismatic and a sinner…

Please reconcile this.
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I don’t think reconcile is the right word.

Are we to be believe that if St. Matthew set up his chair in opposition to St. James that would be OK? No, of course not.

By Optatus’ time, the crisis with Pope Victor had happened. There is no indication whatsoever that if he stuck to his “excommunication” of Ephesus and Asia, that the rest of the Church would have followed him. The facts, and subsequent history bear out that they wouldn’t.

And Optatus, “correcting” St. Cyprian, for sure knew that he asked for, and received, support in the East against Rome. And Cyprian was in Rome’s own patriarchate.
 
Isa_Almisry said:
And Optatus, “correcting” St. Cyprian, for sure knew that he asked for, and received, support in the East against Rome.
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Optatus was not refuting St. Cyprian, but Parmenian. As far as your claim that he asked for support against Rome, please provide proof.
 
jimmy said:
If you are going to quote someone you have to give the citation. If you quote Optatus of Milevi then state that he said it and in what work.
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“The Schism of the Donatists” 367A.D.
The Faith of the Early Fathers Vol 2 pg 140
William A. Jurgens
 
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