If the Bible is a 'Catholic book', are Protestants, by default, under Catholc authority whether they reject the Catholic Church or not?

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the question was
Who “knew” that 3 John and Hebrews and Mark was theopneustos but that Barnabas and the Shepherd of Hermas and epistles of Clement were not?"

The answer provided was:
“Catholic Bishops led by the Holy Spirit”

I am making the point it was not just exclusively Catholic Bishops who knew
but also The Sheep led by the Holy Spirit knew
The point is actually that the Letter of Clement to the Corinthians and the Shepherd of Hermas were actually in much wider circulation than 3 John and Hebrews. The Apocalypse of Peter was in much wider circulation than the Apocalypse of John. And, in general, as the majority of the faithful were illiterate, they received most of their scripture during the Mass. So it was up to the bishops to determine which scripture was appropriate for reading during Mass. But there was disagreement on what writings were divinely inspired. As heresies developed and flourished, it became more and more important for the bishops to decide which writings were inspired, which writings were not inspired but made for edifying reading, which writings were pious fiction, and which writings were heretical. There were many, many books that were disputed by the bishops as to their authenticity.

Among the books that were disputed were 2 Peter, Hebrews, 2 & 3 John, Jude, the Apocalypse of John, 1 & 2 Timothy, Titus, Colossians, and Ephesians along with the Letter of Clement to the Corinthians, the letter of Ignatius to Polycarp, the Apocalypse of Peter, the Didache, and the Shepherd of Hermas. The bishops, in communion with the Pope, at the ecumenical councils of Hippo and Carthage, looked at all supposed Christian literature, and made their decisions.

2 Peter, Hebrews, 2 & 3 John, Jude, the Apocalypse of John, 1 & 2 Timothy, Titus, Colossians, and Ephesians were considered divinely inspired.

The Letter of Clement to the Corinthians, the letter of Ignatius to Polycarp, the Didache, and the Shepherd of Hermas were considered edifying reading - not divinely inspired scripture, but good for the faithful to read to help understand and interpret the scriptures. The books in this group could be considered akin to the Babylonian Talmud for the Jews - not scripture in and of itself, but giving a perspective to the faithful on how the scriptures were properly interpreted.

Books such as the Acts of Paul and Thecla, the Acts of Peter, the Protoevangelium of James, etc., were considered pious fiction. These books often contained legends of what happened to the apostles, Jesus’s and Mary’s childhoods, etc. But they came much later (often not appearing until the 200’s AD), and though popular among the faithful, were obviously not scriputural.

The Apocalypse of Peter, along with such writings as the “Gospel of Mary”, the “Gospel of Judas”, the “Secret Gospel of Mark”, the epistle of Barnabas, etc., were considered heretical. Most of these books had a very small distribution, but the Apocalypse of Peter and the epistle of Barnabas had a very wide distribution, often being more popular and widespread than many books that eventually were included in the canon, and were heavily debated for inclusion.

The question for you would be this: if you had a copy of every Christian writing or supposed Christian writing that was purported to be scripture with no knowledge about which books were scriptural and which ones weren’t, how would you decide which books were divinely inspired? How closely would it match the actual New Testament?
 
I’m sorry. From a Lutheran perspective, the Church is the congregation of believers, where the word is leached and the Sacraments administered. So, the Church Catholic is universal, divisions notwithstanding.
Does that help?

Jon
Sorry for the misspelling. That should have been where the word is preached

Jon
 
I’m not following you here.

Yes, it’s certainly up to God that sees the depth of a man’s heart, follows the ten commandments and loves neighbor.

Not sure how that addresses my point?
Because all things belong to God. Jesus says believe in the Father, also believe in me. The Trinity comes to mind. God searches for all to come to the knowledge of His Church.

CC:54,55,56,1716
 
Because all things belong to God. Jesus says believe in the Father, also believe in me. The Trinity comes to mind. God searches for all to come to the knowledge of His Church.

CC:54,55,56,1716
No doubt.

But God used the Catholic Church to give the world the New Testament.

So, each and every time you quote from the NT as theopneustos, you are giving your tacit submission to the authority of the CC.

You would not know, any other way, that Hebrews is theopneustos, but the Epistles of Clement are not, save for your deferral to the authority of the Church.

And that means you cannot be a Bible Alone advocate.
 
No doubt.

But God used the Catholic Church to give the world the New Testament.

And that means you cannot be a Bible Alone advocate.
Indeed I am not bible alone! I submit to the Catholic Church. Pope Francis has made this the year of mercy, for the whole world. Pope Francis is indeed vicar of Christ for the world not just Catholics that have the fullness of truth. God indeed works in mysterious ways.

God Bless
 
Indeed I am not bible alone! I submit to the Catholic Church. Pope Francis has made this the year of mercy, for the whole world. Pope Francis is indeed vicar of Christ for the world not just Catholics that have the fullness of truth. God indeed works in mysterious ways.

God Bless
And you can now use this argument with anyone who claims to be Bible Alone: “Well, if you believe that Hebrews is theopneustos, you do so because of the Catholic Church, so you can’t be a Bible Alone advocate”. 👍
 
I don’t consider historical facts, word of mouth transmission; or saints being led by the Holy Spirit to be Sacred Tradition
So then all of Christian history, which informs us as to what the verifiably documented early church actually taught and believed has no value?

Then that makes you even more susceptible to the ever changing new winds of doctrines of modern men.

The whole New Testament was oral transmission of Sacred Tradition until it was written and even St. John tells us that not all of that was recorded.

And it was indeed those same saints, led by the Holy Spirit who both wrote the inspired New Testament and then discerned the choices (again by the Holy Spirit) and canonized it.
 
So then all of Christian history, which informs us as to what the verifiably documented early church actually taught and believed has no value?

Then that makes you even more susceptible to the ever changing new winds of doctrines of modern men.

The whole New Testament was oral transmission of Sacred Tradition until it was written and even St. John tells us that not all of that was recorded.

And it was indeed those same saints, led by the Holy Spirit who both wrote the inspired New Testament and then discerned the choices (again by the Holy Spirit) and canonized it.
And Saint Luke wrote his prologue only to assure Theophilus of the accuracy of the oral teaching he had already received (Luke1:1-4)
 
I don’t consider historical facts, word of mouth transmission; or saints being led by the Holy Spirit to be Sacred Tradition
The Bible is an aide-memoire. The catechesis was its explanation as given by Jesus and the Apostles. It took three years (as per the disciples’ walk with Jesus) or four (as per the extra year asked for by the gardener before cutting the tree down). If someone apostatised and came back, they re-entered catechesis.

Many Protestants (in the UK) choose to benefit from this to a considerable extent. My friend’s friend is a Protestant pastor who draws on what the late Jerome Murphy O’Connor has pulled together as regards St Paul.

A huge number of Catholics have no understanding of Scripture or Tradition anyway.

I’m sure God wants us to roll this out to everyone far more.

Unfortunately catechesis is a dirty word for all the churches now.
 
How is it a Roman Catholic book? *Moses and King David *certainly would not be considered Roman Catholic. The Apostles and Gospel writers wrote in the first century. *They were Christians *and got their *authority from God, not from Rome.

*Just because a council centuries later made a formal ruling about what would be NT Scripture, it doesn’t mean that the NT was invented then.
Pardon the length. If you’re still around, and interested

Just a bit of history (properly referenced.) all links are operational
  • During the transfiguration of Jesus,Matthew 17 Jesus, Peter, James, John, Moses, Elijah, were present on top of Mt Tabor… And they spoke with each other. The OT ( the law and the prophets) and NT (the fulfillment of everything) came together on top of the mount. Peter was going to erect 3 tents for Moses, Elijah, and Jesus. God the Father spoke. He showed EVERYONE there, who Jesus is. And the Father said, listen to Him, do what He says.
  • Jesus, son of God, son of David, came to build His Church, which was called ἐκκλησία,καθ’,ὅλης ,τῆς , = the Kataholos Church (Acts 9:31). That is where Catholic Church comes from and we see that throughout history. Brief history of the 1st 400 years. ( all internal links are operational #34 )
  • It goes without saying, the NT writers, were already in the Church they were building, writing to, and for. Therefore, the Church came first before a word of NT scripture was written.
  • The Church that wrote the NT defines the NT as well. AND it accurately defines the books of the OT as well. Jesus gave full authority to Peter and the Church because Peter and his successors hold the keys given by Jesus.
  • The Catholic Church made the decision on what works made it into the scriptures and what didn’t.
  • Just because a letter says it is from an apostle does it mean it is automatically accepted. There were 100’s of writings claiming to be authentic.
  • That process of settling the canon, was finalized in 382 at the council of Rome when Pope Damasus I, finalized the canon with a decree. rosarychurch.net/bible/rome_damasus.html
BTW, Re: the decree of Damasus
** When you see an OT book name above from the canon, that reads differently from what is expected, see the translation of that name here drbo.org/
For example “Osee” = Hosea
s:
The Scriptures were recognized as Scripture at the time they were written. 1 Timothy 5:18 - Paul cites 2 Scriptures including Luke. 2 Peter 3:16 Peter refers to Paul’s letters as Scripture. There may have been a few questions, but it was largely recognized immediately as being Scripture.
Re:
  • 1 Tim 5: 18 for the scripture says, “You shall not muzzle an ox when it is treading out the grain,” and, “The laborer deserves his wages.”
  • 2 Pet 3:16 speaking of thisa] as he does in all his letters. There are some things in them hard to understand, which the ignorant and unstable twist to their own destruction, as they do the other scriptures.
The 1st letter, referred to the OT. The 2nd letter, refers to Paul and a letter he wrote. Neither letter identifies itself as scripture. Point of fact, read from the oldest canon of record we have, the Muratorian canon. earlychristianwritings.com/text/muratorian.html It’s from ~180 a.d. Look who that canon depends on, and look at what it says about a letter from Peter…

here is a portion of that canon

" it is yet shown-i.e., by this sevenfold writing-that there is one Church spread abroad through the whole world. And John too, indeed, in the Apocalypse, although he writes only to seven churches, yet addresses all. He wrote, besides these, one to Philemon, and one to Titus, and two to Timothy, in simple personal affection and love indeed; but yet these are hallowed in the esteem of the Catholic Church, and in the regulation of ecclesiastical discipline. There are also in circulation one to the Laodiceans, and another to the Alexandrians, forged under the name of Paul, and addressed against the heresy of Marcion; and there are also several others which cannot be received into the Catholic Church, for it is not suitable for gall to be mingled with honey. 4. The Epistle of Jude, indeed,37 and two belonging to the above-named John-or bearing the name of John-are reckoned among the Catholic epistles. And the book of Wisdom, written by the friends of Solomon in his honour. We receive also the Apocalypse of John and that of Peter, though some amongst us will not have this latter read in the Church."

did you notice, that last highlight? Who settles that problem? It’s the Catholic Church
 
If you want to make the claim the origin of the Bible or Canon is within the Church Catholic, we can have that discussion.
Both things are true. The NT was written by, for, and about Catholics.
But Scripture and the Bible are not the same thing.
Do you accept writings as theopneustos that are not in the Bible?
Please clarify at what point does a well-known undisputed fact becomes Scared Tradition

Romans 16:22 I, Tetris, who wrote down this letter, greet you in the Lord.

When Paul dictated the Letter of Romans to Tetris, was that Scared Tradition?

When Tetris give the letter to Trusted Traveler going to Rome and says: deliver this letter from Paul to the Church in Rome. Is that Scared Tradition?

When Trusted Traveler gives the letter to the Church in Rome and says I have this letter from Paul for you. Is that Scared Tradition?

When they read the letter in Church and Christian Man tells his 10 friends and family: I just heard Paul’s Letter to us. Is that Scared Tradition? And then they tell their 10 friends and family…
Sacred Tradition is the Word of God deposited in the Church. Like Scripture, it is Sacred at the moment it arrives in the Church. Scripture did not “become” Scripture when it was canonized, and Sacred Tradition does not “become” sacred over time. It arrives inerrant from a Divine Source.
 
alwayswill #95
Please clarify at what point does a well-known undisputed fact becomes Scared Tradition
Some real facts are still always “disputed” by those who wilfully choose so to do.

The Bible and Sacred Tradition are of equal authority because they are equally the word of God; both draw on the vision of God incarnate, who gave to the apostles what He came down on earth to teach.

The Catechism of the Catholic Church
See: kofc.org/un/en/catechism/index.html#
77 “In order that the full and living Gospel might always be preserved in the Church the apostles left bishops as their successors. They gave them their own position of teaching authority.” 35 Indeed, “the apostolic preaching, which is expressed in a special way in the inspired books, was to be preserved in a continuous line of succession until the end of time.” 36

78 This living transmission, accomplished in the Holy Spirit, is called Tradition, since it is distinct from Sacred Scripture, though closely connected to it. Through Tradition, “the Church, in her doctrine, life and worship, perpetuates and transmits to every generation all that she herself is, all that she believes.” 37 “The sayings of the holy Fathers are a witness to the life-giving presence of this Tradition, showing how its riches are poured out in the practice and life of the Church, in her belief and her prayer.” 38

79 The Father’s self-communication made through his Word in the Holy Spirit, remains present and active in the Church: “God, who spoke in the past, continues to converse with the Spouse of his beloved Son. And the Holy Spirit, through whom the living voice of the Gospel rings out in the Church - and through her in the world - leads believers to the full truth, and makes the Word of Christ dwell in them in all its richness.” 39

II. THE RELATIONSHIP BETWEEN TRADITION AND SACRED SCRIPTURE
One common source. . .
80 “Sacred Tradition and Sacred Scripture, then, are bound closely together, and communicate one with the other. For both of them, flowing out from the same divine well-spring, come together in some fashion to form one thing, and move towards the same goal.” 40 Each of them makes present and fruitful in the Church the mystery of Christ, who promised to remain with his own “always, to the close of the age”. 41

. . . two distinct modes of transmission

81 “Sacred Scripture is the speech of God as it is put down in writing under the breath of the Holy Spirit.” 42

“And [Holy] **Tradition **transmits in its entirety the Word of God which has been entrusted to the apostles by Christ the Lord and the Holy Spirit. It transmits it to the successors of the apostles so that, enlightened by the Spirit of truth, they may faithfully preserve, expound and spread it abroad by their preaching.” 43

82 As a result the Church, to whom the transmission and interpretation of Revelation is entrusted, “does not derive her certainty about all revealed truths from the holy Scriptures alone. Both Scripture and Tradition must be accepted and honoured with equal sentiments of devotion and reverence.” 44
[My emphases]
 
I am making the point it was not just exclusively Catholic Bishops who knew but also The Sheep led by the Holy Spirit knew
Always,

You profess that the Sheep knew that all 27 books of the NT were theopneustos, no more, no less books.

And that they were guided in doing so by the Holy Spirit.

Yes, you profess that they error’d on their belief that the Eucharist is the resurrected Body and Blood of Christ. Yes?

Question then is … how do you know that they were inerrant on the canon (actually 27 separate times on those books in the bible … and being inerrant in 200+ times in rejecting other NT writings) … but they error’d on this other Catholic belief?

Also, do you profess believe that Baptism is Salvific?

Do you see the inconsistency of your position?
 
Question then is … how do you know that they were inerrant on the canon (actually 27 separate times on those books in the bible … and being inerrant in 200+ times in rejecting other NT writings) … but they error’d on this other Catholic belief?
I don’t inerrantly know that the canon is correct.
It is by faith that I accept that it is
Always,

You profess that the Sheep knew that all 27 books of the NT were theopneustos, no more, no less books.

And that they were guided in doing so by the Holy Spirit.

?
I never said that :
I don’t believe that the Sheep were in 100% agreement on the 27 books any more than all of the Bishops were in agreement. on all 27 books
 
Re:
  • 1 Tim 5: 18 for the scripture says, “You shall not muzzle an ox when it is treading out the grain,” and, “The laborer deserves his wages.”
  • 2 Pet 3:16 speaking of thisa] as he does in all his letters. There are some things in them hard to understand, which the ignorant and unstable twist to their own destruction, as they do the other scriptures.
The 1st letter, referred to the OT. The 2nd letter, refers to Paul and a letter he wrote. Neither letter identifies itself as scripture. Point of fact, read from the oldest canon of record we have, the Muratorian canon. earlychristianwritings.com/text/muratorian.html It’s from ~180 a.d. Look who that canon depends on, and look at what it says about a letter from Peter…
2 second part of 1 Tim 5: 18 Paul is referencing Luke’s Gospel

Jimmy Akin points that out here
ncregister.com/blog/jimmy-akin/did-the-authors-of-the-new-testament-know-they-were-writing-scripture

" Less ambiguous is 1 Timothy 5:17-19, where we read:

[17] Let the elders who rule well be considered worthy of double honor, especially those who labor in preaching and teaching;

[18] for the scripture says, “You shall not muzzle an ox when it is treading out the grain,” and, “The laborer deserves his wages.”

The command about not muzzling an ox comes from Deuteronomy 25:4, but the statement that the worker deserves his wages is** Luke 10:7–the only other place in the Bible this statement appears.**

So here we have a direct New Testament reference to Luke as Scripture.

We thus have a consciousness being displayed, in the New Testament age, that Luke–and, by extension, the other Gospels–were Scripture."
Jesus, son of God, son of David, came to build His Church, which was called ἐκκλησία,καθ’,ὅλης ,τῆς , = the Kataholos Church (Acts 9:31). That is where Catholic Church comes from and we see that throughout history. Brief history of the 1st 400 years. ( all internal links are operational #34 )
kath and holes (καθ’ and ὅλης)is a preposition and an adjective: They are NOT capitalized and not a proper nouns.

I am part of the ekklesia; as is every true believer.

I am included in the catholic church; as is every true believer.
I am not part of the Catholic Church.
 
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alwayswill:
kath and holes (καθ’ and ὅλης)is a preposition and an adjective: They are NOT capitalized and not a proper nouns.

I am part of the ekklesia; as is every true believer.

I am included in the catholic church; as is every true believer.
I am not part of the Catholic Church.
You are joined to us, the Body of Christ, imperfectly.

You stand in the tradition of Apollos, full of zeal for the Lord but in need of some correction regarding what you embrace and profess.
 
The Sheep (aka the ekklesia) led by the Holy Spirit
Were YOU at the councils that confirmed the canon? :nope:

Or were they attended by the Bishops of the Catholic Church? :yup:

This is a matter of historical record. 👍
 
the answer to
Q: " Originally Posted by PRmerger View Post
So how was it “known”?

Who “knew” that 3 John and Hebrews and Mark was theopneustos but that Barnabas and the Shepherd of Hermas and epistles of Clement were not?"

A: “Catholic Bishops led by the Holy Spirit”
is not entirely correct
bishops are part of The Sheep; but The Sheep consist of much more than the just the Catholic Bishops.

correct?
How many non-clerical sheep attended the Councils wherein the Canon of scripture was being established? 🤷
 
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