If the Bible is a 'Catholic book', are Protestants, by default, under Catholc authority whether they reject the Catholic Church or not?

  • Thread starter Thread starter JustaServant
  • Start date Start date
Status
Not open for further replies.
alwayswill said:
"Origin of scripture is indeed within the Church Catholic "

I couldn’t disagree more:

If you want to make the claim the origin of the Bible or Canon is within the Church Catholic, we can have that discussion.
But Scripture and the Bible are not the same thing.
Click to expand...
Sheesh.

All-scripture is God-breathed, and God is the source of the inspired texts.

However, it is a plain fact of history that all of the books of the NT were written by men who considered themselves to members of the one body of Christ which began calling itself the “Catholic Church” before the end of the first century.

God used this one Church, the Catholic Church, to pen, promote, protect, promulgate and preach the 27 books which ALL Christians everywhere consider to be the sacred texts of the New Testament.

If you own a Bible today, it is in no small part due to the faithfulness of the Catholic Church.
 
PRmerger said:
So how was it “known”?

Who “knew” that 3 John and Hebrews and Mark was theopneustos but that Barnabas and the Shepherd of Hermas and epistles of Clement were not?
Click to expand...
:clapping:

Um…Catholic Bishops led by the Holy Spirit? :yup:
 
Randy_Carson said:
Sheesh.

All-scripture is God-breathed, and God is the source of the inspired texts.

However, it is a plain fact of history that all of the books of the NT were written by men who considered themselves to members of the one body of Christ which began calling itself the “Catholic Church” before the end of the first century.

God used this one Church, the Catholic Church, to pen, promote, protect, promulgate and preach the 27 books which ALL Christians everywhere consider to be the sacred texts of the New Testament.

If you own a Bible today, it is in no small part due to the faithfulness of the Catholic Church.
Click to expand...
Not to mention that the person who reads the Bible is also tacitly acknowledging the truth of Sacred Tradition.

For it was through this Sacred Tradition that these books of the NT were transmitted to the early Christian community. Yes, it was through ST that men and women “knew” what was theopneustos.

ALSO, it naturally follows that any person who believes that there are 27 books in the NT, not 32, not 16, MUST believe in the charism of infallibility. At least as it applies to the canon of the NT.

Unless he wants to propose that the Church erred in discerning this 27 book canon?

Perhaps he believes, as these folks do, that the epistles written by Paul are not theopneustos?

lasttrumpet.org/paul_false_apostle.htm
 
alwayswill said:
yes, I did

It seems your point is that because the Catholic Church recognized and collected all known God breathed writings: that anyone using that collection is actually (at least at some level) under Catholic authority:

Did I summarize your point correctly?
Click to expand...
Jumping in here, I would say that is not the reason that all Christians are under the authority of the Pope.

The reason all Christians are under the authority of the Pope is that Jesus promised to build one Church, and He established Peter as its earthly head.

If you are joined to the body of Christ in any way, then you are under the headship of the successor of Peter who functions as the leader of the Church Militant.
 
JonNC said:
It depends on what you mean “Catholic”, and by authority. Christ established the Church as the teaching authority. That is the Church’s role - to preach (teach) the word and administer the sacraments (see the Great Commission). There seems to be some disagreement among Christians about how that authority is exercised, and by whom. Obviously. So, if you say that every Christian is under the authority of the Church Catholic, I’d say yes. But if that is understood as under the authority (universal jurisdiction) of the successor of Saint Peter in Rome, I’d say, not so much.

Jon
Click to expand...
I would say every Christian is “under” the authority of the Church Catholic. I am not referring to the Pope. That’s a different can of worms.
Maybe I shouldn’t have used the word ‘authority’. I like universal jurisdiction. Or perhaps ‘under the direction’ of the Catholic Church.
 
PRmerger said:
Not to mention that the person who reads the Bible is also tacitly acknowledging the truth of Sacred Tradition.

For it was through this Sacred Tradition that these books of the NT were transmitted to the early Christian community. Yes, it was through ST that men and women “knew” what was theopneustos.

ALSO, it naturally follows that any person who believes that there are 27 books in the NT, not 32, not 16, MUST believe in the charism of infallibility. At least as it applies to the canon of the NT.

Unless he wants to propose that the Church erred in discerning this 27 book canon?

Perhaps he believes, as these folks do, that the epistles written by Paul are not theopneustos?

lasttrumpet.org/paul_false_apostle.htm
Click to expand...
But we’re not talking about fringe groups, Mormons or JWs. They create their own Scripture and walk away from Catholic teaching in the Bible.
 
PRmerger said:
They aren’t “under the authority” of the CC. ** But they are giving their tacit submission to the authority of the CC** each and every time they quote from the Bible as the inspired Word of God.

That is, they can’t know that Hebrews is theopneustos unless they say, “Who told me that Hebrews is inspired? The Catholic Church did? I guess I have to say, ‘Ok’, then since I believe that Hebrews is inspired.”
Click to expand...
👍
 
JustaServant said:
But we’re not talking about fringe groups, Mormons or JWs. They create their own Scripture and walk away from Catholic teaching in the Bible.
Click to expand...
Right.

So anyone who denies the authority of the CC, must, logically, permit folks to determine their own canon.
 
onenow1 said:
I can see God making the bible available that all, christian or not would at least get a good look at it to make us curious. That is how much He is after us and loves us !

onenow1

God Bless All
Click to expand...
The above is correct.

But it still doesn’t address the fact that any Christian who believes that there are 27 books in the NT is giving his tacit submission to the authority of the CC.
 
PRmerger said:
The above is correct.

But it still doesn’t address the fact that any Christian who believes that there are 27 books in the NT is giving his tacit submission to the authority of the CC.
Click to expand...
I understand, don’t you think this is up to God that sees the depth of a man’s heart; Follows the ten commands leads to the love of neighbor, doing no harm to anyone? love of neighbor the way I see it. The 11th command.
 
onenow1 said:
I understand, don’t you think this is up to God that sees the depth of a man’s heart; Follows the ten commands leads to the love of neighbor, doing no harm to anyone? love of neighbor the way I see it. The 11th command.
Click to expand...
I’m not following you here.

Yes, it’s certainly up to God that sees the depth of a man’s heart, follows the ten commandments and loves neighbor.

Not sure how that addresses my point?

You can ONLY know what’s theopneustos because you submit to the authority of the CC.

And unless you believe that the CC got something wrong with this 27 book canon of the NT, this means you also believe that the CC was infallible here.

Yes?
 
JustaServant said:
I would say every Christian is “under” the authority of the Church Catholic. I am not referring to the Pope. That’s a different can of worms.
Maybe I shouldn’t have used the word ‘authority’. I like universal jurisdiction. Or perhaps ‘under the direction’ of the Catholic Church.
Click to expand...
With the following caveat, and at the expense of a ninja accusation, I would agree. The caveat is an acceptance that the term Catholic Church includes more than those in communion with the Bishop of Rome.

You realize, of course, that if we are under the authority of the Catholic Church that we are Catholic- Anglo-Catholics, Evangelical Catholics are indeed Catholic. Some folks on both sides might not like that. 😉

Jon
 
PRmerger said:
And unless you believe that the CC got something wrong with this 27 book canon of the NT, this means you also believe that the CC was infallible here.

Yes?
Click to expand...
nope; being 100% correct does not mean infallible: it means inerrant

I believe the Canonization of the 27 books of the NT was an inerrant decision, not an infallible act.
 
JonNC said:
Aren’t bishops part of The Sheep led by the Good Shepherd?

Jon
Click to expand...
the answer to
Q: " Originally Posted by PRmerger View Post
So how was it “known”?

Who “knew” that 3 John and Hebrews and Mark was theopneustos but that Barnabas and the Shepherd of Hermas and epistles of Clement were not?"

A: “Catholic Bishops led by the Holy Spirit”
is not entirely correct
bishops are part of The Sheep; but The Sheep consist of much more than the just the Catholic Bishops.

correct?
 
JustaServant said:
I know we don’t need yet another Sola Scriptura thread. But this subject came up on the Karl Barth thread, and I’d like to hear what others think about this.

This would include ALL Protestants from those closest to the CC, like Episcopal and Lutheran, to the most anti-Catholic fundamentalist.
Click to expand...
To a certain extent I’d say yes. Any community that accepts the Bible, even if it’s a heavily edited version, must accept in some part that it was put together by the early Church. So to some degree, whether they like it or not, they have to accept a certain catholicity when they accept the bible.
 
alwayswill said:
the answer to
Q: " Originally Posted by PRmerger View Post
So how was it “known”?

Who “knew” that 3 John and Hebrews and Mark was theopneustos but that Barnabas and the Shepherd of Hermas and epistles of Clement were not?"

A: “Catholic Bishops led by the Holy Spirit”
is not entirely correct
bishops are part of The Sheep; but The Sheep consist of much more than the just the Catholic Bishops.

correct?
Click to expand...
At the time, however, there were few who could read or had access to scripture. It was mainly church leaders.

Jon
 
JonNC said:
At the time, however, there were few who could read or had access to scripture. It was mainly church leaders.

Jon
Click to expand...
I guess there must have been thousands and thousands of Church leaders:
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Biblical_manuscript

“Parts of the New Testament have been preserved in more manuscripts than any other ancient work, having over 5,800 complete or fragmented Greek manuscripts, 10,000 Latin manuscripts and 9,300 manuscripts in various other ancient languages including Syriac, Slavic, Gothic, Ethiopic, Coptic and Armenian.”

"“What is usually meant is that the New Testament has far more manuscript evidence from a far earlier period than other classical works. There are just under 6000 NT manuscripts, with copies of most of the NT dating from just 100 years or so after its writing”
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top