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guanophore
Guest
Can you explain how you arrived at this conclusion?
If the Bible is a 'Catholic book', are Protestants, by default, under Catholc authority whether they reject the Catholic Church or not?
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alwayswill
Guest
my full quote was
“Until Christ returns, the only infallible inerrant authority we have on earth; is Scripture alone.
Not the only authority, but the only infallible inerrant authority.”
I should have included somthing like " at this time" or “currently”
But strictly speaking : The Bible NEVER mentions “inspired writers” only “inspired writings”.
“but men moved by the Holy Spirit spoke from God.”
God is infallible; The Holy Spirit is infallible
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PRmerger
Guest
I agree that those are* some* of the** myriad** of definitions of Sola Scriptura.
But therein lies the problem, always.
There is NO ONE who can speak with authority on what SS means.
And one reason for this is because the Bible doesn’t mention SS. At all.
So none of you can agree what SS means.
Here’s some other definitions of SS:
(including one, curiously, by James White, that sounds definitively DIFFERENT than the one he allegedly professed earlier in your source):
“The Christian Church looks at the Scriptures as the only and sufficient rule of faith and the Church is always subject to the Word, and is constantly reformed thereby.”–James White
vintage.aomin.org/SANTRAN.html
“The Bible as one’s only authority” –Sola Scriptura | The Christian Husband
“The Bible is the only rule because it is sufficient to show us the way of salvation, and to teach us how to lead a godly and righteous life pleasing to God”–Joe Mizzi
“Sola scriptura means that Scripture alone is authoritative for the faith and practice of the Christian. The Bible is complete, authoritative, and true.” –What is sola scriptura? | GotQuestions.org
So whose definition do I go to to know, exactly, what’s SS?
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guanophore
Guest
It seems like a person would have to reject an awful lot of Scripture and Apostolic tradition to say this.
P
PRmerger
Guest
Ok. So you believe that the inspired writers were fallible, and they erred in the writing of the gospels/epistles/NT texts?
But they erred? They were fallible?
What part of the NT texts do you believe to be in error?
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PRmerger
Guest
Yes, of course.
But how did they get from God to man?
Answer: via the Catholic Church
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alwayswill
Guest
no, not at all:
Not being infallible does NOT mean it is in error.
Infallible means incapable of error:
Being capable of error does not mean error occurred
My computer program I wrote,or may Calculus exam can be error free:
even if I am NOT infallible.
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PRmerger
Guest
So when they wrote the inspired text they were prevented from writing error?
Is that what you’re saying?
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alwayswill
Guest
from newadvent.org/cathen/03744a.htm
ecclesia is never used by the Apostles to denote the Jewish Church. The word as a technical expression had been transferred to the community of Christian believers
As signifying the Church, the word Ecclesia is used by Christian writers, sometimes in a wider, sometimes in a more restricted sense.
•It is employed to denote** all** who, from the beginning of the world, have **believed in the one true God, and have been made His children by grace
•It may signify the ** whole body of the faithful, including not merely the members of the Church who are alive on earth but those, too, whether in heaven or in purgatory
from newadvent.org/cathen/10663a.htm
This truth, that the Church is the mystical body of Christ, all its members being guided and directed by Christ the head,
from wiki
the Church Militant (Ecclesia Militans), comprising Christians on earth who are living; Christian militia, who struggle against sin, the devil and “…the rulers of the darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness in high places” (Ephesians 6:12).
From the CCC
790** Believers** who respond to God’s word and become members of Christ’s Body,
805 The Church is the Body of Christ. Through the Spirit and his action in the sacraments, above all the Eucharist, Christ, who once was dead and is now risen, establishes the community of believers as his own Body
P
PRmerger
Guest
Think about this, always.
Jesus came. He preached. He died and rose.
THEN what happened…
The apostles, disciples, witnesses proclaimed the kerygma.
THAT means that…Sacred Tradition came first.
The Scriptures were not written for 40 years.
(Context here is NT Scripture. NOT the OT)
If the Scriptures came first, please tell me what St. Stephen looked to when he was preaching prior to his martyrdom? What New Testament text was he preaching from?
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alwayswill
Guest
we were discussing the summary of a book and you misrepresented what he said
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PRmerger
Guest
He clearly suggests that Sacred Tradition is what occurred first.
Then the Church took the texts and affirmed those texts which professed that which was already being proclaimed.
That’s Sacred Tradition always.
Tradition first.
Then Scripture.
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alwayswill
Guest
yes : Because God is infallible therefore God breathed writings are infallible.
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alwayswill
Guest
Then we disagree that is what the quotes said.
And I disagree with you that any Sacred Tradition about was was Scripture existed prior to Scripture
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PRmerger
Guest
Well! That is nothing more and nothing less than the Catholic definition of infallibility.
God (that is, the Holy Spirit) prevented St. Luke, St. Mark, St. Paul, St. Peter, etc etc etc from writing error in their texts.
So…you do believe that men can be infallible.
P
PRmerger
Guest
Well, again, how is it that St. Stephen, for example, was preaching the gospel when he died before the NT was completed?
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alwayswill
Guest
Men can be correct and error free (inerrant)
But infallibility is a Divine only attribute
The Sovereign Almighty God can have people or institution do EXACTLY what He desires: Thant doesn’t make them infallible
like Cyrus (Isaiah 45)
“For the sake of Jacob my servant, of Israel my chosen, I summon you by name and bestow on you a title of honor, though you do not acknowledge me………I will strengthen you, though** you have not acknowledged me**,”
like Pharaoh: (Exodus 9:15)
But I have raised you up for this very purpose, that I might show you my power and that my name might be proclaimed in all the earth.
Pilate (John 19)
Pilate said. “Don’t you realize I have power either to free you or to crucify you?”
Jesus answered, "You would have no power over me if it were not given to you from above
**
Do you have any doubt that Cyrus, Pharaoh , and Pilate did exactly what God wanted to be done?**
Did God use Cyrus, Pharaoh, and Pilate to accomplish His will?
Yes, absolutely.
Were the actions of Cyrus, Pharaoh, and Pilate in accordance with the sovereign plan of God?
Yes, absolutely.
Did Cyrus, Pharaoh, and Pilate do EXACTLY wanted God wanted to be done?
YES, absolutely
Are Cyrus, Pharaoh, and Pilate worthy of any honor, glory, or praise?
NO!
Are Cyrus, Pharaoh, and Pilate infallible?
NO!
(Did I just say that Cyrus, Pharaoh, and Pilate are like the Cathoic Church?
NO I did not)
The POINT is that God uses all types of people to accomplish his Sovereign Will; that does NOT mean those kingdoms, institutions, or people are infallible!
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PRmerger
Guest
We are now agreed that men can be correct and error free.
So you believe in what the Church teaches regarding infallibility.
You just don’t want to call it that.
P
PRmerger
Guest
Well…this is where we get to the meat of your issue.
Why in the world would you bring up such a question?
It seems that the difficulty you have with affirming the Church’s teaching on infallibility is that you equate infallibility with “worthy of any honor, glory and praise”.
Let me disabuse you of any such notion.
The pope and magisterium are due no honor, glory and praise because they are prevented from teaching error.
Please remove such an idea from your mind, always!
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alwayswill
Guest
nopeWe are now agreed that men can be correct and error free.
So you believe in what the Church teaches regarding infallibility.
You just don’t want to call it that.
Infallible defined as incapable of error
Inerrant defined as containing no error
By definition: everything that is Infallible is also Inerrant
but not everything that is Inerrant is also Infallible:
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