If the Bible is a Catholic document, why isn't some Catholic doctrine in it?

[LilyM]

Well technically, Luther did not hate the deutero-canonical books he just doubted their authenticity as being on par with Canon. Of course Luther was propounding a doctrine of Sola Scriptura so books like Maccabees which called into doubt his positions theologically were demoted in his way of thinking. Some others which you missed would be James, Hebrews, the last few chapters of Romans, II Peter, you know, those books no one really reads anyway.

However, Luther did include the so-called ‘Apocrypha’ in his Bible (placing them at the back) a pattern also used by Tyndale, Calvin, and even the original King James. In fact these apparently non-canonical books were included in the Protestant Canon until the mid-nineteenth century when the English Bible Society omitted them seemingly forever.

In truth, the twentieth century was the first Christian Century which did not have the Deuteros readily available for study. Of course it has been my experience that most Protestants (of which I myself am numbered) have a great curiosity about the books and have readily sought them out to learn and study them.

Uh … I think someone who calls the letter of St James an ‘epistle of straw’ as Luther did has some serious issues with it that go well beyond mere scholarly and disinterested doubt as to its authenticity, otherwise why the vitriol?

 

[bogeydogg]

I’m pretty sure I said his position was disingenuous because of his preconceived notion of Sola Scriptura.

And technically he called James, “…a right strawy epistle.”

 

[po18guy]

Examples:

1. Purgatory
2. Assumption of Mary
3. Etc.

First, the bible is not complete. It does not say it is complete. It says exactly the opposite (Luke 3:18, John 20:30, 21:25 and Acts 4:20 and others). What is missing? How do you find it? Do you care? Since the traditions that Paul says we are to keep are not in the bible, where can you find them?

Do you want just enough of Christ to be saved? You won’t know if it’s enough until too late.

Christ’s peace.

 

[johnnydigit]

**If the Bible is a Catholic document, why isn’t some Catholic doctrine in it?
**

humor me, please-

did Jesus use water when He washed the disciples’ feet? why?

was Blessed Mary present when John the Baptist was born? why? (Elizabeth was 6 months pregnant, Mary stayed for 3 months.)

did the disciples eat mostly bread and fish? why?

was the Cross made of wood? why?

 

[garysibio]

I’m pretty sure I said his position was disingenuous because of his preconceived notion of Sola Scriptura.

And technically he called James, “…a right strawy epistle.”

As long as we’re being picky, he said it in German.

 

[bogeydogg]

Oh man, I spewed Dr. Pepper out of my nose!!!

 

[Zooey]

Examples:

1. Purgatory
2. Assumption of Mary
3. Etc.

Purgatory is in there.
The Assumption of Mary is in there.
Etcetera?http://bestsmileys.com/clueless/1.gif Okay,http://bestsmileys.com/clueless/4.gif I’ll give you “etcetera”…

Uh … I think someone who calls the letter of St James an ‘epistle of straw’ as Luther did has some serious issues with it that go well beyond mere scholarly and disinterested doubt as to its authenticity, otherwise why the vitriol?

Well, ML was a wee bit…ummmm…He was a little bit http://bestsmileys.com/silly/20.gif:whacky: http://bestsmileys.com/silly/18.gif , wasn’t he??? (In only the most:banghead: way, of course…)

 

[po18guy]

Well technically, Luther did not hate the deutero-canonical books he just doubted their authenticity as being on par with Canon. Of course Luther was propounding a doctrine of Sola Scriptura so books like Maccabees which called into doubt his positions theologically were demoted in his way of thinking. Some others which you missed would be James, Hebrews, the last few chapters of Romans, II Peter, you know, those books no one really reads anyway.

Especially 2 Peter 1:19-20!

In truth, the twentieth century was the first Christian Century which did not have the Deuteros readily available for study. Of course it has been my experience that most Protestants (of which I myself am numbered) have a great curiosity about the books and have readily sought them out to learn and study them.

This can only be good. Parts of Ecclesiasticus (ben Sira, Sirach) are so offensive nowadays that they must be the truth!

Christ’s peace.

 

[Mea_Culpa]

Uh … I think someone who calls the letter of St James an ‘epistle of straw’ as Luther did has some serious issues with it that go well beyond mere scholarly and disinterested doubt as to its authenticity, otherwise why the vitriol?

Luther took out the Letter of St. James because it says “Faith without works is dead” - while he was arguing that works were not needed for salvation, only faith. So, since the Letter of St. James showed very explicitly that he was wrong, he just took it out.

Change the sacraments, change the scripture, change anything to fit your own ideas - do this and you have the complete chaos that is the Protestant religion (35,000 sects and splintering into more daily). This is why Tradition and the Magisterium of the Church is so important. God is not a God of chaos, but of peace.

 

[po18guy]

Luther took out the Letter of St. James because it says “Faith without works is dead” - while he was arguing that works were not needed for salvation, only faith. So, since the Letter of St. James showed very explicitly that he was wrong, he just took it out.

Change the sacraments, change the scripture, change anything to fit your own ideas - do this and you have the complete chaos that is the Protestant religion (35,000 sects and splintering into more daily). This is why Tradition and the Magisterium of the Church is so important. God is not a God of chaos, but of peace.

Well said.

 

[fellowChristian]

PURGATORY

****Hebrews 12:29

for our God is a consuming fire.****

We can not be in the presence of God if we are imperfect.We would burn up.

Matthew 5:48
"Therefore you are to be perfect, as your heavenly Father is perfect.

1 Corinthians 3:10-15

10 According to the grace of God which was given to me, like a wise master builder I laid a foundation, and another is building on it. But each man must be careful how he builds on it.

11 For no man can lay a foundation other than the one which is laid, which is Jesus Christ.

12 Now if any man builds on the foundation with **gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, straw, **

13 each man’s work will become evident; for the day will show it because it is to be revealed with fire, and** the fire itself will test the quality of each man’s work. **

14 If any man’s work which he has built on it remains, he will receive a reward.

15 If any man’s work is burned up, he will suffer loss; but he himself will be saved, yet so as through fire.

1 Peter 1:6-7

6 In this you greatly rejoice, even though now for a little while, if necessary, you have been distressed by various trials,

7 so that the proof of your faith, being more precious than gold which is perishable, even though tested by fire, may be found to result in praise and glory and honor at the revelation of Jesus Christ;

Revelation 3:18-19

18 I advise you to buy from Me **gold refined by fire **so that you may become rich, and white garments so that you may clothe yourself, and that the shame of your nakedness will not be revealed; and eye salve to anoint your eyes so that you may see.

19 'Those whom I love, I reprove and discipline; therefore be zealous and repent.

Daniel 12:10

10 "Many will be purged, purified and refined, but the wicked will act wickedly; and none of the wicked will understand, but those who have insight will understand.

And from the books that Martin Luther decided to remove…

Wisdom 3:5-6:

5 Afflicted in few things, in many they shall be well rewarded: because God hath tried them, and found them worthy of himself.

6 As gold in the furnace he hath proved them, and as a victim of a holocaust he hath received them, and in time there shall be respect had to them.

Sirach 2:5:

5 For gold and silver are tried in the fire, but acceptable men in the furnace of humiliation.

Zechariah 13:8-9:

8 And there shall be in all the earth, saith the Lord, two parts in it shall be scattered, and shall perish: but the third part shall be left therein.

9 And I will bring the **third part through the fire, and will refine them as silver is refined: and I will try them as gold is tried. **They shall call on my name, and I will hear them. I will say: Thou art my people: and they shall say: The Lord is my God.

Malachi 3:2-3:

2 And who shall be able to think of the day of his coming? and who shall stand to see him? for he is like a refining fire, and like the fuller’s herb:

3 And **he shall sit refining and cleansing the silver, and he shall purify the sons of Levi, and shall refine them as gold, and as silver, **and they shall offer sacrifices to the Lord in justice.

 

[johnnydigit]

"We call a man a bigot or a slave of dogma because he is a thinker who has thought thoroughly and to a definite end."
-G.K. Chesterton

 

[angie08]

Since there are some catholic beliefs that are not found in the bible, this is proof that catholics have some false teachings. The bible is the ultimate authority. It is the word of God. Therefore, everything in it is true. The bible says nothing that justifies the belief in purgatory and in fact has passages against it. For example, when Jesus was crucified, he told the robber that today he would be with Him in paradise. This suggests that when a person dies, his soul goes immediately to heaven or hell, not some space in between. The bible has passages that prove that many other catholic beliefs are false as well, such as praying to Mary, the infallibility of the pope, and most importantly, the belief that you need to do good works to get to heaven. The bible clearly states that the only way to get to heaven is through faith in Jesus.

 

[Drlit]

Luther took out the Letter of St. James because it says “Faith without works is dead” - while he was arguing that works were not needed for salvation, only faith. So, since the Letter of St. James showed very explicitly that he was wrong, he just took it out.

Change the sacraments, change the scripture, change anything to fit your own ideas - do this and you have the complete chaos that is the Protestant religion (35,000 sects and splintering into more daily). This is why Tradition and the Magisterium of the Church is so important. God is not a God of chaos, but of peace.

Oh BAM! You really nailed it there MC! I’m your newest fan!

 

[Cranch]

Since there are some catholic beliefs that are not found in the bible, this is proof that catholics have some false teachings. The bible is the ultimate authority. It is the word of God. Therefore, everything in it is true. The bible says nothing that justifies the belief in purgatory and in fact has passages against it. For example, when Jesus was crucified, he told the robber that today he would be with Him in paradise. This suggests that when a person dies, his soul goes immediately to heaven or hell, not some space in between. The bible has passages that prove that many other catholic beliefs are false as well, such as praying to Mary, the infallibility of the pope, and most importantly, the belief that you need to do good works to get to heaven. The bible clearly states that the only way to get to heaven is through faith in Jesus.

                 Matt. 12:32 – Jesus says, “And anyone who says a word against the Son of man                      will be forgiven; but no one who speaks against the Holy Spirit will be                      forgiven either in this world or in the next.” Jesus thus clearly provides that                      there is forgiveness after death. The phrase “in the next” (from the Greek “en                      to mellonti”) generally refers to the afterlife (see, for example, Mark 10.30;                      Luke 18.30; 20.34-35; Eph. 1.21 for similar language). Forgiveness is not                      necessary in heaven, and there is no forgiveness in hell. This proves that                      there is another state after death, and the Church for 2,000 years has called                      this state purgatory.

Luke 23:43 – many Protestants argue that, because Jesus sent the good thief right to heaven, there can be no purgatory. There are several rebuttals. First, when Jesus uses the word "paradise,” He did not mean heaven. Paradise, from the Hebrew “sheol,” meant the realm of the righteous dead. This was the place of the dead who were destined for heaven, but who were captive until the Lord’s resurrection. Second, since there was no punctuation in the original manuscript, Jesus’ statement “I say to you today you will be with me in paradise” does not mean there was a comma after the first word “you.” This means Jesus could have said, “I say to you today, you will be with me in paradise” (meaning, Jesus could have emphasized with exclamation his statement was “today” or “now,” and that some time in the future the good thief would go to heaven). Third, even if the thief went straight to heaven, this does not prove there is no purgatory (those who are fully sanctified in this life – perhaps by a bloody and repentant death – could be ready for admission in to heaven).

— just two of the hundreds of informative explanations of biblical
support for Catholic doctrine found at ScriptureCatholic.com
​

 

[johnnydigit]

Since there are some catholic beliefs that are not found in the bible, this is proof that catholics have some false teachings. The bible is the ultimate authority. It is the word of God. Therefore, everything in it is true. The bible says nothing that justifies the belief in purgatory and in fact has passages against it. For example, when Jesus was crucified, he told the robber that today he would be with Him in paradise. This suggests that when a person dies, his soul goes immediately to heaven or hell, not some space in between. The bible has passages that prove that many other catholic beliefs are false as well, such as praying to Mary, the infallibility of the pope, and most importantly, the belief that you need to do good works to get to heaven. The bible clearly states that the only way to get to heaven is through faith in Jesus.

wow, deep. i heard some of those on tv from those televangelists. they’re quirky. wow, all those guys thinking they’re so smart for 2000 years coming up with things that even a 12 year old with a Bible can disprove. who are they kidding?! we’re way to smawt for that!

anywho, do you believe in the Trinity? you know, that doctrine that makes you a Christian? well it’s not found in the Bible either. Mormons don’t believe in the Trinity. are they not Christians even though they have faith in Jesus? oh man oh man…

 

[JIMMY68]

Cranch,
Thanks for the most excellent lead to ScriptureCatholic.com.
Another excellent source for seeking the truth, I’ve added it to my apologetic arsenal.
In His Peace.
Jimmy

                 Matt. 12:32 – Jesus says, “And anyone who says a word against the Son of man                      will be forgiven; but no one who speaks against the Holy Spirit will be                      forgiven either in this world or in the next.” Jesus thus clearly provides that                      there is forgiveness after death. The phrase “in the next” (from the Greek “en                      to mellonti”) generally refers to the afterlife (see, for example, Mark 10.30;                      Luke 18.30; 20.34-35; Eph. 1.21 for similar language). Forgiveness is not                      necessary in heaven, and there is no forgiveness in hell. This proves that                      there is another state after death, and the Church for 2,000 years has called                      this state purgatory.

Luke 23:43 – many Protestants argue that, because Jesus sent the good thief right to heaven, there can be no purgatory. There are several rebuttals. First, when Jesus uses the word "paradise,” He did not mean heaven. Paradise, from the Hebrew “sheol,” meant the realm of the righteous dead. This was the place of the dead who were destined for heaven, but who were captive until the Lord’s resurrection. Second, since there was no punctuation in the original manuscript, Jesus’ statement “I say to you today you will be with me in paradise” does not mean there was a comma after the first word “you.” This means Jesus could have said, “I say to you today, you will be with me in paradise” (meaning, Jesus could have emphasized with exclamation his statement was “today” or “now,” and that some time in the future the good thief would go to heaven). Third, even if the thief went straight to heaven, this does not prove there is no purgatory (those who are fully sanctified in this life – perhaps by a bloody and repentant death – could be ready for admission in to heaven).

— just two of the hundreds of informative explanations of biblical
support for Catholic doctrine found at ScriptureCatholic.com
​

 

[johnnydigit]

Cranch,
Thanks for the most excellent lead to ScriptureCatholic.com.
Another excellent source for seeking the truth, I’ve added it to my apologetic arsenal.
In His Peace.
Jimmy

here’s some of mine that i’ve stockpiled

del.icio.us/johnnydigit/apologetics

 

[po18guy]

wow, deep. i heard some of those on tv from those televangelists. they’re quirky. wow, all those guys thinking they’re so smart for 2000 years coming up with things that even a 12 year old with a Bible can disprove. who are they kidding?! we’re way to smawt for that!

anywho, do you believe in the Trinity? you know, that doctrine that makes you a Christian? well it’s not found in the Bible either. Mormons don’t believe in the Trinity. are they not Christians even though they have faith in Jesus? oh man oh man…

And here I thought the argument was finally settled! Ever notice that those who teach their own gospel will be out of work if they begin agreeing with one another? They’d have to get a job like you and I!

Christ’s peace.

 

[angie08]

Luther took out the Letter of St. James because it says “Faith without works is dead” - while he was arguing that works were not needed for salvation, only faith. So, since the Letter of St. James showed very explicitly that he was wrong, he just took it out.

Change the sacraments, change the scripture, change anything to fit your own ideas - do this and you have the complete chaos that is the Protestant religion (35,000 sects and splintering into more daily). This is why Tradition and the Magisterium of the Church is so important. God is not a God of chaos, but of peace.

In his letter, James is not saying that you have to do good works to get to heaven. Instead, he was saying that if you do have true faith, then that will lead you to do good works. He explains this clearly in James 2:15-17. He says that faith by itself, if not accompanied by action, is dead. He means that if a person claims to have faith, but his actions don’t support his claim, then he is lying and he does not have the true faith. Someone who has true faith will do good works out of love for God and thankfulness for what He has done for us. True faith produces fruits of faith.

James 2:23 says that Abraham believed God and it was credited to him as righteousness. It was because of his faith that God called him righteous, not because of his works; although his works gave an outward sign that he did have faith in God and was willing to do everything that God wanted. But James makes it clear that what saved Abraham was his faith.

And just a quick note: Luther did not take James out of the bible. In fact, he said, "Though this epistle of St. James was rejected by the ancients, I praise it and consider it a good book, because it sets up no doctrines of men but vigorously promulgates the law of God (LW 35:395).