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Rolltide
Guest
It’s Life on the Rock… it’s a show for teens done by a group of monks in Alabama. (I think I’ve mentioned before that I live only 40 minutes from their studio…)
If the Catholic Church is wrong, which non-Catholic denomination is right?
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ChristianKnight
Guest
It is awful, no offense to them. I’d rather see a old black/white video of Roy Rogers and the Sons of the Pioneers, at least he has a good voice.
Anyways, I am not much for gospel music, its so weird. I do like Battle Hymn of the Republic, but thats more of a military song, even though its mainly about God fighting war.
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ferdie
Guest
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ChristianKnight
Guest
Come on be nice. Just cause he isn’t in your church does not mean he hasn’t had the spirit.The Holy Spirit helped me back to the Catholic Church. I wonder if you are talking about the same Holy Sprit. You know the Spirit that guides the Church founded by our Lord Jesus Christ. I guess not coz the Holy Spirit is the Spirit of Truth and not of confusion.
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ferdie
Guest
Sounds like he/she is telling us Catholics that we don’t have the guidance of the Holy Spirit, and I am just telling him/her that I also pray to the Holy Spirit to lead me in the truth, so whose Holy Spirit is right, the one that lead you to the One, Holy, Catholic and Apostolic Church found by our Lord Jesus Christ or the one that leads you out of it?
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Jimmy_B
Guest
Isn’t this an answer?..I think it is…see…I knew you liked me.
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fbl9
Guest
just using your post not saying anything in regards to you specifically.we know it is the Holy Spirit who leads us to repent.so what happens to the Holy Spirit after repentance? Does He forget to show them the Church or do people ingore that and continue in the denomination at which they repented?
SIA how abouts i share a comment i reiceved from one of your fellow protestants in regards to your claim that if one reads the bible and the Holy Spirit will lead them out…“that’s a garbage statement”…yep i just can feel the christian warmth.
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ChristianKnight
Guest
You’ve lost me.
we know it is the Holy Spirit who leads us to repent.so what happens to the Holy Spirit after repentance? Does He forget to show them the Church or do people ingore that and continue in the denomination at which they repented?
SIA how abouts i share a comment i reiceved from one of your fellow protestants in regards to your claim that if one reads the bible and the Holy Spirit will lead them out…“that’s a garbage statement”…yep i just can feel the christian warmth.
I do not think their is 2 holy spirits. I think people leave the Church and join it for different reasons. I do not think it is your choice to choose which is which.
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ferdie
Guest
You are right, there is only one Holy Spirit. If two people prayed to the Holy Spirit for proper interpretation of the Scripture and both got different interpretation, then who’s right? My point is no individual have sole claim of the guidance of the Holy Spirit when it comes to bible interpretation but the Church founded by Jesus Christ.
I do not think their is 2 holy spirits. I think people leave the Church and join it for different reasons. I do not think it is your choice to choose which is which.
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ferdie
Guest
I guess it was funny the second time I read it..
“If you truly did that, you would not be Roman Catholic anymore, I guarantee it”
:extrahappy:
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ferdie
Guest
In my experience, proper church affiliation helped a lot in my personal relationship with God.
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O.S.Luke
Guest
No Jimmy, I am sad to say that I do not like you. Get some meds and get evened out. You have a very sick need to provoke and disparage.Isn’t this an answer?..I think it is…see…I knew you liked me.
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hmgs1
Guest
As a mainline Protestant, I guess the question itself shows one of the biggest hurdles Christian reconciliation has yet to overcome - our collective insistence that everything is defined in terms of right or wrong. Essentially this means if my faith tradition is correct, then by definition yours must be wrong.
To me this almost implies a God with very limited power, as He or She can only support a single, very specific path to salvation.
I reject this notion and ask, “Who says the Catholic tradition is wrong?”
Mainline Protestants, the denominations who trace a direct lineal heritage back to the magisterial reformers Luther, Zwingli and Calvin, seem to have evolved into a theology that is much more inclusive in such matters. There seems to be recognition that scripture is absolutely clear and specific on many of the important, core, fundamental foundations of the Christian faith. These are boundaries that cannot be crossed.
In some of the details, however, scripture comes across as vague, ambiguous and often contradictory, thus leaving it to sincere, divinely inspired, yet mortal men (whether they be named Luther or Benedict), to decipher the ultimate truth of an infinite, all powerful and all knowing God. Is it possible, or might we get closer to the ultimate truth by learning from each other and the reasons behind the various traditions. Indeed, could all have some element of truth because an all powerful God cannot be limited, for example, to a single type of real presence at communion?
Mainliners tend to recognize this possibility and thus consider their faith traditions somewhat similar to the first among equals, not the only correct way to God. Other Christian traditions are considered equally valid paths, ones to be both respected and learned from. At the very least, as my pastor says, “doubt the interpretation perhaps, but not the faith behind it.”
Its why we recently had a sermon on Mary, noting that perhaps the RCC is a bit closer to giving her the credit she deserves and that perhaps we Presbyterians should reconsider our own thoughts about the Virgin.
Finally remember that just as there Sedevacantists and Conclavists under the Catholic umbrella, Protestant traditions cannot be lumped into a single definition. And perhaps this is a good thing. If indeed research and dialogue is the most effective path to understanding God’s truth, could it be that the Reformation itself was divinely inspired?
JMTSW, YMMV
To me this almost implies a God with very limited power, as He or She can only support a single, very specific path to salvation.
I reject this notion and ask, “Who says the Catholic tradition is wrong?”
Mainline Protestants, the denominations who trace a direct lineal heritage back to the magisterial reformers Luther, Zwingli and Calvin, seem to have evolved into a theology that is much more inclusive in such matters. There seems to be recognition that scripture is absolutely clear and specific on many of the important, core, fundamental foundations of the Christian faith. These are boundaries that cannot be crossed.
In some of the details, however, scripture comes across as vague, ambiguous and often contradictory, thus leaving it to sincere, divinely inspired, yet mortal men (whether they be named Luther or Benedict), to decipher the ultimate truth of an infinite, all powerful and all knowing God. Is it possible, or might we get closer to the ultimate truth by learning from each other and the reasons behind the various traditions. Indeed, could all have some element of truth because an all powerful God cannot be limited, for example, to a single type of real presence at communion?
Mainliners tend to recognize this possibility and thus consider their faith traditions somewhat similar to the first among equals, not the only correct way to God. Other Christian traditions are considered equally valid paths, ones to be both respected and learned from. At the very least, as my pastor says, “doubt the interpretation perhaps, but not the faith behind it.”
Its why we recently had a sermon on Mary, noting that perhaps the RCC is a bit closer to giving her the credit she deserves and that perhaps we Presbyterians should reconsider our own thoughts about the Virgin.
Finally remember that just as there Sedevacantists and Conclavists under the Catholic umbrella, Protestant traditions cannot be lumped into a single definition. And perhaps this is a good thing. If indeed research and dialogue is the most effective path to understanding God’s truth, could it be that the Reformation itself was divinely inspired?
JMTSW, YMMV
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Monica37
Guest
Belief in the authority of Scripture alone, rather than Scripture and tradition
Belief in justification by faith alone
Rejection of the Deuterocanonicals / Apocrypha in the Bible
Rejection of all sacraments except Baptism and Communion
Rejection of a celibate clergy
Rejection of intercessionary prayer
Rejection of the pope
Rejection of the use (or very limited use) of statues and images within worship
(and so on…)
I am Catholic and would respectfully like to know how you answer when someone asks you to pray for them. Do you? If you do, then you engage in intercessory prayer. Also, if the Bible is the only thing we need to focus on, what did the early Christians do when they gathered to worship Christ before the New Testament was written?
Also, when you remember a family member who has passed away, do you look at their picture? Do you believe the picture is them? I lost my daughter and I look at her picture often to remind me of her. Sometimes, yes I do talk out loud to her as I look at her picture. I know that the picture is not her, but it helps me to remember her. As there were no photographers at the time of Christ, Mary and the Apostles, we have statues to remember them because we see them as our family who have passed away before us. And yes, sometimes when I look at the statue of Mary, a woman who knows my pain of loss profoundly, I ask for her prayers as well to help me with my grief. I also go directly to God. So you see, there is nothing sinister here.
Belief in justification by faith alone
Rejection of the Deuterocanonicals / Apocrypha in the Bible
Rejection of all sacraments except Baptism and Communion
Rejection of a celibate clergy
Rejection of intercessionary prayer
Rejection of the pope
Rejection of the use (or very limited use) of statues and images within worship
(and so on…)
I am Catholic and would respectfully like to know how you answer when someone asks you to pray for them. Do you? If you do, then you engage in intercessory prayer. Also, if the Bible is the only thing we need to focus on, what did the early Christians do when they gathered to worship Christ before the New Testament was written?
Also, when you remember a family member who has passed away, do you look at their picture? Do you believe the picture is them? I lost my daughter and I look at her picture often to remind me of her. Sometimes, yes I do talk out loud to her as I look at her picture. I know that the picture is not her, but it helps me to remember her. As there were no photographers at the time of Christ, Mary and the Apostles, we have statues to remember them because we see them as our family who have passed away before us. And yes, sometimes when I look at the statue of Mary, a woman who knows my pain of loss profoundly, I ask for her prayers as well to help me with my grief. I also go directly to God. So you see, there is nothing sinister here.
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reteeks21
Guest
Nice points. I agree with you 100%. I would just add that not all protestants de-value tradition. I certainly don’t I guess it’s just the degree of value we place on it.
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Contarini
Guest
Perhaps we are all wrong. We are all sinners, not only in our actions but in our beliefs. We all distort the Gospel to some extent, but God acts through our distortions anyway.
This is the only feasible Protestant position, as far as I can see. Why are Catholic apologists so slow to address it?
Edwin
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hmgs1
Guest
Monica,
Again you need to consider which Protestant tradition you are talking about when you consider these attributes, some of which are exceedingly complex doctrine. For example, how I understand PCUSA, the answers to your questions would be:
Again you need to consider which Protestant tradition you are talking about when you consider these attributes, some of which are exceedingly complex doctrine. For example, how I understand PCUSA, the answers to your questions would be:
- Catholic tradition, from what I have read, looks at the unwritten information handed down about the Saints and early church fathers and counts the scripturally based lives they led as equivalent to Scripture in determining theological doctrine. PCUSA would say that such traditions remain very important and should be consulted as they allow us to understand Scripture more clearly, but the ultimate authority remains the Bible.
- Intercessionary prayer for most Protestants refers to what is perceived as RCC doctrinal necessity to go thru a priest (or Saint?) to communicate with God, rather than pray directly to the Almighty. This concept is challenged, but prayer on behalf of someone else is fine.
- Mainline Protestants today evidently have no big issue with statues, etc in a Catholic church and understand them to be veneration and not worship. Their absence in Mainline churches is a matter of emphasis, eg, Christ is not shown on the cross as the emphasis is on His Resurrection vice His suffering. Some evangelicals define such images as idolatry, however.
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JRKH
Guest
This is perhaps the best written piece I’ve seen in some time. Thank you.
On the whole I think that there is much merit in what you say as regards reconsiliation of the Churches. We could learn quite a bit from how each tradition has developed.
However I must address two points. The idea of the Protestants being “More inclusive” and the idea of the Protestant Reformation bein divinely inspired.
As to the first, being more inclusive: Once the idea of SS and individual interpretation was released, how could one set of SS believers contradict another set of SS believers? The need to be “tolerant” and “inclusive” of each other was simply part of the trap that the Protestants fell into once they rejected the Historical Church with Her long history of Traditions and understandings of Scripture.
Now to the Second, that the Protestant Reformation might have been divinely inspired: Even if we presume that Luther et. al. were initially inspired by the Holy Spirit to seek reform within the Church (just as other saints had done previously) by speaking out against the abuses, it becomes evident that, at some point, personal pride took over and the spirit of reform became a spirit of revolt. Instead of pushing the envelope just far enough then drawing back to prevent a breach the “Reformers” defied the Church and caused a breach that has yet to have stopped splintering.
The long and short of it is this. If the Reformation had been truly inspired of God then, even if there was a division (as in Roman/Orthodox) there would have been one or two or three “Protestant” denominations. Not the Huge number of denominations that we see today. No - I’m afraid that the Holy Spirit had little or nothing to do with the Protestant Reformation.
Peace
James
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SIA
Guest
laugh now, because you won’t be laughing later. (1 Corinthians 3)
“If you truly did that, you would not be Roman Catholic anymore, I guarantee it”
:extrahappy:
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