If the church was in hiding ...

[ParkerD]

It sounds they are better than Jesus who, while in this world, could suffer pain and sorrow and was tempted …

1. If that is what the world could do to Christ, why can the world no do the same to these strange “translated beings” if they are really in the world?

The problem with that is that, according to your theory, from approximately 100 AD to June 1829 those “translated beings” were as good as dead.

1. Oh really? You mean they were on earth while the church was absent from the earth?

Sounds weird. I mean, they were on earth while the church was absent; they had all the truths of the Gospel, “including the teachings, ordinances, covenants and organization that would keep the doctrines pure” yet they failed to keep “the doctrine pure”, necessitating a restoration by Joseph Smith.

placido

Placido,

1. Jesus had a specific mission, which included to take upon Himself the sufferings and the sorrows that human beings go through. He didn’t have to do that, but He did it for us. He had power within Himself not to have done that, and He certainly could give to translated beings power in the ways listed in that passage. He was all-powerful even before He was resurrected, and continued as such after His resurrection. Christ allowed Himself to be taken and be crucified for the sins of the world. Translated beings would not have that same mission, of course.
2. Yes, they were on earth while the authority of the institutional church had been lost from the earth. They had the authority themselves, and if John had been followed by the church leaders and members as the last living apostle, then I’m sure he could have kept the institution pure, but as has been demonstrated, the people started following other leaders rather than John. The pure gospel and pure covenants are of no use if forced on people, and when leaders are saying “follow me, not him” then John would not bring contention into the situation. Contention is wrong, even in a circumstance where the doctrines and ordinances were being changed.

So those translated beings would visit individual people who were pure in heart, but would not participate in contention about the doctrines and ordinances of the institutional church.
The organization requires more than one righteous leader.

 

[ParkerD]

True.

False.

False. The Holy Spirit guides the church (like you rightly stated above) regardless of the personal righteousness of individual leaders.

False. Paul said prophecies would cease (I Corinthians 13:8).
The rest of what you said was merely a cocktail of wishful thinking mixed with a good dose of fiction propagated by those who (for whatever reason) needed an excuse to usurp church authority for themselves.

placido

All of those teachings are from the Bible, Placido. They are all true, and are not wishful thinking. I listed a small sampling of passages that talk about each item, in the subsequent post to Wisdom Seeker. I’ve discussed several of those items before. They are all plainly taught by Paul or by Peter or by Christ or by John.

But you won’t see it if you choose not to see it. Every person can choose for themselves, and listen to whatever voice they want to listen to. Belief will not be forced onto people. It would do them no good.

 

[placido]

Placido,

1. Jesus had a specific mission, which included to take upon Himself the sufferings and the sorrows that human beings go through.

And those on earth who believe in Him must take up their crosses and follow Him (Matthew 10:38). But no, the “translated beings” don’t do that, yet you claim on their behalf, they are followers of Christ.

He didn’t have to do that, but He did it for us. He had power within Himself not to have done that, and He certainly could give to translated beings power in the ways listed in that passage. He was all-powerful even before He was resurrected, and continued as such after His resurrection.

You acknowledge Christ as being powerful, yet apparently not powerful enough to protect Himself (His body, His Church), so much so that the Church had to go in hiding for more than 1 700 years.

Christ allowed Himself to be taken and be crucified for the sins of the world. Translated beings would not have that same mission, of course.

Never mind. If the “translated beings” are really on earth, they have to take up their crosses and follow Jesus. (NB: take up their crosses …)

1. Yes, they were on earth while the authority of the institutional church had been lost from the earth.

You are confusing yourself by consistently and persistently referring to the Church as “institutional” – a word that appears nowhere in Scriptures that refer to Christ’s Church.
Where did you borrow it from?

They had the authority themselves, and if John had been followed by the church leaders and members as the last living apostle, then I’m sure he could have kept the institution pure, but as has been demonstrated, the people started following other leaders rather than John.

Never mind those “church leaders and members” that apparently failed to follow John. If John and a few righteous people were on earth, and if John had church authority, then the church was on earth. On that score alone, you have successfully destroyed your earlier claim that the Church “was no longer on earth for a very long time”.

placido

 

[placido]

The pure gospel and pure covenants are of no use if forced on people,

You have erected and then demolished your own straw man. Nobody here did ever propose that the gospel should be forced on people.

placido

 

[placido]

Yes, I do believe both of those things happened many times.

The problem is solved. The purpose of this thread was to weigh the arguments for and against the allegation that the church went into hiding sometime after the apostolic age. You were basically the only one supporting the idea that the church disappeared from the earth for more than 1 700 years - whether it was a) “hiding” in heaven, b) “withdrawn” from the earth, or c) went into the “wilderness”, only you can tell.
The problem was solved this way:

1. The Church is referred to as the Body of Christ.
2. The Church is Christ Himself. Prosecuting the Church is prosecuting Christ (Acts 9:4-5).
   3.Christ (therefore, the Church) is where two or three believers on earth come together in His name (Matthew 18:20).
   4.In your response (above) you acknowledge that there were believers on earth throughout the ages and they could come together and worship God (therefore, Christ/Church was there).
   As things now stand at this point of our discussion, it would be unreasonable of you to turn around and say “no, the church was not on earth”.
   So, we have reached a consensus (albeit an uneasy one) that:

• Christ is the Church (or at least it is His Body);
• Christ (and therefore His Church) is where at least two or three believers are;
• There were at least two or three believers on earth throughout the ages;
  CONCLUSION: If we can not prove a total absence of believers on earth, then we can not prove the absence of Christ’s Church from the earth.

placido (signing off)

 

[ParkerD]

Placido,
Some of the people were killed who met the criteria of being pure in heart or meeting in Christ’s name. One of those, for example, was William Tyndale. When the pure in heart were killed, there may or may not have been another pure in heart person on earth.

But if the reasoning you have used works for you, then that is fine with me.

I disagree with your logic about “taking up their cross” if a person was so righteous and had already proven themselves through much suffering during their life and had the desire to continue sharing the message of Christ’s gospel on the earth rather than die at a normal age and go to the spirit world where they could “rest”. Translated beings had certainly “taken up their cross” during the period of their mortal lives, before they were changed from a mortal body to a translated body. Nor do those who are resurrected continue to “take up a cross” if it means “suffer the pains of the world.” Yet those who are resurrected will still believe in Christ, and will have obtained His grace through the atonement. Christ’s atonement allows the suffering to end. “Sorrow and sighing shall flee away.” “God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes.”

Peace to all. Do seek to be pure in heart, and to follow Christ with all of your heart and soul, as Placido has implied we should all do.

 

[AdrianP]

If Church was in hiding, why Luther was Catholic and not from hidding Church? Why he developed his theology by “THINKING” an not by copying from" HIDDING CHURCH"?

 

[fbl9]

One thing you can’t produce ParkerD is a single “translated” person…yet i can produce the relics of one of those whom you claim is “translated”…

In regards to the “evidence” you provided for a translated person read the BIBLE and you will find no wheres did God have to bribe a person to follow Him.Futher there is no mention at all in scripture regarding “translated” persons.

 

[ParkerD]

One thing you can’t produce ParkerD is a single “translated” person…yet i can produce the relics of one of those whom you claim is “translated”…

In regards to the “evidence” you provided for a translated person read the BIBLE and you will find no wheres did God have to bribe a person to follow Him.Futher there is no mention at all in scripture regarding “translated” persons.

FBL9,
If you have thought that a “translated” person would show himself to someone in order to prove his existence in the world, then you don’t understand how faith works or how God lets people learn faith. A translated person would not do something contrary to what is in people’s best interest. Learning faith is in people’s best interest, while having dramatic proof is not in their best interest. Faith comes first.

I certainly agree that God does not bribe people to follow Him, nor show them outward, dramatic proofs. Prayer brings access to God’s evidences for His truths. Those evidences will be in ways that God wants to provide them, and His ways are not man’s ways.

Enoch “walked with God: and he was not; for God took him.” (Genesis 5:24) He was translated and taken to a different place to live with a group of righteous people. John had a different assignment, but he was translated also, because of his desires to stay on the earth and bring people to Christ, and because of his righteousness and faith.

 

[rinnie]

Questioner,
When I had written that “God does not confront people” I was writing of the general case for how God interacts with humankind. I have clarified about there being specific exceptions to that general statement. You highlighted specific exceptions. I agree that those things happened, but they are not general case everyday examples of how God interacts with humankind.

As to my comment about people doing their best, as far as I’m concerned there were a few key leaders who knew they had their own agenda and were working on that agenda (such as gaining more leadership influence than their calling had placed within their assignment, or wanting to change doctrines and practices to suit their own understanding and their own traditions and later to make it easier for more people to believe and to help get the church increased power). Those key leaders deceived the people into believing what the leaders had to say. That does not mean the people were not doing their personal best, but it means they weren’t receiving the pure and correct teachings anymore because some key leaders changed the teachings to conform to what those key leaders wanted the people to understand.

Revelation and several Old Testament prophesies including Daniel clearly indicate that the above-noted deception was prophesied to happen. God let it happen. That is precisely what is indicated by Revelation 13:7.

Parker please read where Jesus said he would not let it happen in his church though. The gates of hell will not prevail. Thats the Catholic CHurch that is still here. You are correct some leaders have changed the teachings of the Church. That is why anyone that is not Catholic Parker are called Protestant. PROTESTant. They protest the CC. But we as Catholic know that the teachings have never changed nor ever will. THe Priest, Pope, Bishop in the CC have never done that nor will.

If you could though show me one teaching that the Apostles and Jesus taught that the CHurch changed? You can’t parker because it has never happpened! Thats why I am a RCC Parker. The church was made on solid Rock and not sand, It is here today as it was over 2000 years ago, And Jesus Christ is still the leader guiding the Pope and Bishops through the Holy SPirit.

 

[rinnie]

FBL9,
If you have thought that a “translated” person would show himself to someone in order to prove his existence in the world, then you don’t understand how faith works or how God lets people learn faith. A translated person would not do something contrary to what is in people’s best interest. Learning faith is in people’s best interest, while having dramatic proof is not in their best interest. Faith comes first.

I certainly agree that God does not bribe people to follow Him, nor show them outward, dramatic proofs. Prayer brings access to God’s evidences for His truths. Those evidences will be in ways that God wants to provide them, and His ways are not man’s ways.

Enoch “walked with God: and he was not; for God took him.” (Genesis 5:24) He was translated and taken to a different place to live with a group of righteous people. John had a different assignment, but he was translated also, because of his desires to stay on the earth and bring people to Christ, and because of his righteousness and faith.

No Parker I disagree with you faith does not come first. Thats where you are getting mixed up. Grace comes first. Grace is a free gift given from God. When you receive the gift of Grace then faith has no choice but to follow. Grace is the God in us that gives us the faith to carry on. Grace is nothing but pure God, pure Goodness, Pure light. Without it faith could not exist.

 

[rinnie]

One thing you can’t produce ParkerD is a single “translated” person…yet i can produce the relics of one of those whom you claim is “translated”…

In regards to the “evidence” you provided for a translated person read the BIBLE and you will find no wheres did God have to bribe a person to follow Him.Futher there is no mention at all in scripture regarding “translated” persons.

You are spot on fb19. God would never bribe anyone. It would take away our free will. And God promised he would never do that. God wants us to follow him because we want to follow him. God knows the real thing, you cannot fool him. He see’s more than the outside he see’s the inside. No one can hide from him. Its by our works and faith that good fruit is produced. ALL Possible through Grace. And all possible by free will. God wants us to want him.

Remember that song when we were little

I got the joy joy joy joy down in my heart down in my heart down heart (Cant get that stupid song out of my head, So thought I would torture you guys too.

 

[ParkerD]

Hi, Rinnie,
I hope your family is doing well. I had provided examples in posts 393 and 395 of changes in doctrines and ordinances. You have talked about “free will” yet also said in essence that God did not allow free will within the church leadership. I disagree. I think it makes complete sense that He would really, truly allow free will.

 

[rinnie]

Hi, Rinnie,
I hope your family is doing well. I had provided examples in posts 393 and 395 of changes in doctrines and ordinances. You have talked about “free will” yet also said in essence that God did not allow free will within the church leadership. I disagree. I think it makes complete sense that He would really, truly allow free will.

Hi Parker, Had a wonderful WEEK! Thanks for asking. It was the kind of week you only get once or twice in a lifetime. But it was wonderful.

I have to go back and read 393&395.

Now about free will. Sure God allows free will in the Church leadership. You either obey him or you don’t. Just because you have commandments does not mean you do not have free will.

Its all about trust Parker, you either obey and trust God and do what he says, Or you CHOOSE to not obey God and trust him.

I think where you are getting confused is free will and obeying what God taught us. Like the Church leaders for example. They are led by the Holy Spirit. So they choose to follow the Holy Spirit when it comes to the Teachings. Jesus knew when he picked his leaders that they would indeed keep the fullness of the truth. Not because he took away the free will, its just he see’s everything. Just like he knew Judas would betray him. Just because he knew what Judas would do, Judas still made the choice to do it.

So what I am saying here is the Pope has no say about what the teaching’s of the CHurch are when it comes to dogma.

Let me quote this from the CCC it should help you to understand.

The Apostles entrusted the Sacred deposit of the faith contained in SS and Tradition to the whole Church. By adhering to the entire holy people united to its pastors remains Always faithful to the teaching of the APostles and brotherhood to the breaking of bread and the prayers so in maintaining practicing and professsing the faith that has been handed on, there should be a remarkable harmony between the bishops and the faithful.

 

[rinnie]

Hi Parker, I went back and read what you wrote. And I am pleased to say I believe that you described the RCC to the Tee!

Couldn’t of done it better myself. Yes that is my faith. So what part of what you quoted does your church disagree with?

 

[rinnie]

Hi, Rinnie,
I hope your family is doing well. I had provided examples in posts 393 and 395 of changes in doctrines and ordinances. You have talked about “free will” yet also said in essence that God did not allow free will within the church leadership. I disagree. I think it makes complete sense that He would really, truly allow free will.

ALso Parker I almost forgot, where did the church ever change anything that you quoted. That has always been the teachings of the RCC? THANKS!

 

[ParkerD]

ALso Parker I almost forgot, where did the church ever change anything that you quoted. That has always been the teachings of the RCC? THANKS!

Rinnie,
Just to make sure we’re talking about the same subject, here was the list from post 395:

The following are aspects of the True, pure gospel taught by Christ:

1. Christ is the head of the church, always. (Ephesians 2:20) He guides the church by revelation through the Holy Spirit, always. (Galatians 1:10-12) Revelation is contingent upon personal righteousness, always. (Galatians 5:16-25) The Holy Spirit can be lost by a leader who is unrighteous, always. (Galatians 6:5-8) A church leader in the pure church of Christ will have a pure testimony of Jesus that is the spirit of prophecy, always. (Revelation 19:10) The pure church of Christ will be completely comfortable with the idea of there being prophets and continuing revelation on the earth. (Acts 15:32; Revelation 14:6)

1. People who join the pure church established by Christ will listen, gain faith and belief, repent of their sins, then desire to be baptized by immersion in water to enter into a covenant relationship with Jesus Christ. They will then desire and receive the gift of the Holy Spirit (Holy Ghost). (Acts 2:37-38; John 3:3-8) These steps will be in close succession, not years removed from each other. The Holy Spirit will sanctify their hearts (1 Peter 1:2) and guide their life and bring them the “fruits of the Spirit” including love, kindness, peace, forgiving hearts, patience, longsuffering, meekness, and greater faith. (Galatians 5:22-23)

1. People who join the pure church established by Christ will be uncomfortable with images and outward appearances of “pageantry” that can be “ends in themselves” and detract from loving God with all of one’s heart or from focusing on personal belief in Christ as a living, loving Savior and Redeemer. There will be no “graven images” in the pure church established by Christ. (Exodus 20:3-5; Deuteronomy 4:28)

1. People who join the pure church established by Christ will be fully familiar with being able to repent of their sins through personal prayer, without needing to see a priest unless their sin was a grievous sin such as adultery. (Acts 3:19; Romans 14:11)

1. People who join the pure church established by Christ will act like the Good Samaritan when it comes to how they treat the stranger in their midst, and how they treat the poor and the needy. They will have love as the centermost characteristic of their personal life.

1. People who join the pure church established by Christ will recognize that families are central to God’s plan for His children, and will not “put asunder” what “God hath joined together”, either in this world or in the world to come. (Matthew 19:6)

1. People who join the pure church established by Christ will want to be like Him, and will know that He wants them to be like Him and that He has provided a way that they can become like Him. It is His way, not their way. His way is the only way. (Matthew 5:48; John 1:12; John 14:6; Revelation 21:7)

If that matches pretty much what you believe also about these doctrines, ordinances, and covenants, then I think that’s great. I have appreciated your kindness in this dialogue. Thanks!

 

[rinnie]

Rinnie,
Just to make sure we’re talking about the same subject, here was the list from post 395:

If that matches pretty much what you believe also about these doctrines, ordinances, and covenants, then I think that’s great. I have appreciated your kindness in this dialogue. Thanks!

Not only that Park its spot on our faith. Now if you don’t mind could you show me where in those quotes you see a difference in our Church. Or what part you don’t think we agree with. Or someone told you we that it does not apply to us. Thanks Parker.

 

[rinnie]

Now Parker the only problem I am having though is the first paragraph of what you wrote, I went back and read it and after more carefull review (looking up the scripture, the scripture we obey and agree with but how you translate it isn’t quite adding up.

Like Gal 5:16-25. Long story short being in a state of grace is the opposite of being in the state of sin. How does that even refer to revelation. Or maybe we are not on the same page or something? Really alot of what Paul is saying and what you are saying isn’t adding up.

 

[ParkerD]

Not only that Park its spot on our faith. Now if you don’t mind could you show me where in those quotes you see a difference in our Church. Or what part you don’t think we agree with. Or someone told you we that it does not apply to us. Thanks Parker.

Rinnie,
I guess I’ve heard different things from different people. There are occasions when things are better left unsaid to avoid bringing disharmony into a situation. I feel like this is one of those times. I have appreciated reading your comments and feeling your sincerity. Thank you again. I’m sure you are blessed because of how you treat others and how you love God.