If the church was in hiding ...

[rinnie]

Rinnie,
I guess I’ve heard different things from different people. There are occasions when things are better left unsaid to avoid bringing disharmony into a situation. I feel like this is one of those times. I have appreciated reading your comments and feeling your sincerity. Thank you again. I’m sure you are blessed because of how you treat others and how you love God.

I understand Parker. If I can help you in anyway please let me know, We are all brothers and sisters in Christ Parker and if there is anything I can do to help you understand the teachings of the CHurch please let me know.

I think like you said Parker you have been told many many untrue things about my Faith. And I am sure I of yours. But I can promise you one thing Parker if you go back to step one. study the faith on a honest and open minded level you will come home to the RCC.

But don’t go by what you hear Parker, go by what the Pope and Bishops teach. It will take you a long time to study but I promise you the answers will be found. And consistant. But you can ask me anything Parker and I will not get upset. And I may not even know the answer but I promise you one thing, I will ask Father and he will explain it to me, and then I can tell you. But I haven’t got to read this thread for the last week so I kinda think you must have had your hands full. But trust me Parker alot of these People really do understand the faith. They have had alot of study.

Trust me Parker Catholics do understand their faith. The bible was written by the Church and the Church can teach it well. Trust me Parker written and oral teachings. No one else got them. God Bless you Parker and I understand you are where you feel you need to be. But I do appreciate your time for letting us share our faith with you. And pray someday you can even possibly be on our side. I see alot of Christ in your Parker. even though we may be on opposite sides of the track, We still see the Track.

 

[ParkerD]

Now Parker the only problem I am having though is the first paragraph of what you wrote, I went back and read it and after more carefull review (looking up the scripture, the scripture we obey and agree with but how you translate it isn’t quite adding up.

Like Gal 5:16-25. Long story short being in a state of grace is the opposite of being in the state of sin. How does that even refer to revelation. Or maybe we are not on the same page or something? Really alot of what Paul is saying and what you are saying isn’t adding up.

Rinnie,
I had thought about responding to this question you asked yesterday, but I didn’t want to detract from the sweet tone of your last comments. I still don’t, but I have decided that it is probably important for a person such as yourself to understand that when I have explained that I have confidence in the Holy Spirit being present in my life, that is because of hundreds and perhaps thousands of experiences and the knowledge within my heart that has grown month by month and year by year during my life, such that if I were to leave that behind I would be sinning against pure knowledge, revealed knowledge, so of course I would never do that.

The passage in Galatians 5:16-25 illustrates revelation by the Holy Spirit in a person’s life, by the following ways:

Paul says “walk in the Spirit.” As you noted, for a person to have the Spirit they have received grace through their repentance and through the blessings offered by the atonement of Jesus Christ. They are in a state of grace, and can “walk in the Spirit” by heeding the promptings and influence of the Spirit in their life. I call that walking by the spirit of revelation. The Holy Spirit might prompt a person to visit a friend who at that moment needed help or needed encouragement. The Holy Spirit might prompt a person on what college to attend, on what career to follow or how to counsel their children or what to say in a given situation such as teaching others or giving a “sermon”. This would mean that they “walk in the Spirit” in order to receive such promptings. Of course, if they are listening to those promptings they will not do any of the things Paul lists as the “lust of the flesh” and the “works of the flesh”, because that would be foreign to what they are seeking in their life.

Paul wrote “if ye are led of the Spirit, ye are not under the law.” This is an important point. It means a person who is led of the Spirit has personal direction from God in their life, so they do not need the “schoolmaster” of the law of Moses because of that intimate relationship with God.

Another important point Paul makes is in verses 25 and 26. A person who “walks in the Spirit” will “not be desirous of vain glory, provoking one another, envying one another.” They will have meekness and humility in their relationships as well as in their leadership qualities.

It is clear to me that Paul’s encouragement to the Galatian saints was a caution that they could “lose” the Spirit if they did not heed the Spirit’s promptings and “walk in the Spirit.” He is also counseling the “brethren”, the leaders of the Galatian church members (Gal. 6:1) and encourages all the saints that they will reap what they sow, and if they heed the Spirit in their life they “shall of the Spirit reap life everlasting.” (6:8)

Have a wonderful day.

 

[rinnie]

Hi Parker, first of all Parker I think that you and I have talked to eachother enough this month to realize that neither of us are speaking words of hate. Even if what we say could come off as that it is not meant. Now lets get to the HS. See God knows where our hearts are. He will help us using the advocate the Holy Spirit.

Now I am not sure what we are at odds about so you must help me. Let me explain the HS in my words and experiences. Now Park you are talking to a girl who had a Father (MY DAD) who lived by the Power of the HS. HE was possesed by it. 90% of the things he did were led by the HS. He is how he explained the HS to me. When in your heart you have 2 choices. What you want to do, and what you should do. Thats the HS. Its leading us all. If you accept the HS and believe in God it will lead to straight to God. Why because it is also God.

Now I also know for a fact that the HS is what guides me. But here is the problem Parker like the scripture says do you listen to it or yourself. Unfortunately sometimes I listen to myself. Oh I hear the HS trust me, but I sometimes sin and do what I want not what God wants.

What happens Parker is when I listen to myself guess what? I always get hurt. And worse I did it to myself. But when I let the HS move me, I not only do not hurt myself I do not hurt others. Thats God working through me Parker.

But where I think you and I are getting confused is revelation. Personal revelation. Is that what you are talking about? Or am I out in left field here? Because there are different kinds Parker. Let me know if this is what you mean or something else. Thanks Parker

 

[ParkerD]

Hi Parker, first of all Parker I think that you and I have talked to eachother enough this month to realize that neither of us are speaking words of hate. Even if what we say could come off as that it is not meant. Now lets get to the HS. See God knows where our hearts are. He will help us using the advocate the Holy Spirit.

Now I am not sure what we are at odds about so you must help me. Let me explain the HS in my words and experiences. Now Park you are talking to a girl who had a Father (MY DAD) who lived by the Power of the HS. HE was possesed by it. 90% of the things he did were led by the HS. He is how he explained the HS to me. When in your heart you have 2 choices. What you want to do, and what you should do. Thats the HS. Its leading us all. If you accept the HS and believe in God it will lead to straight to God. Why because it is also God.

Now I also know for a fact that the HS is what guides me. But here is the problem Parker like the scripture says do you listen to it or yourself. Unfortunately sometimes I listen to myself. Oh I hear the HS trust me, but I sometimes sin and do what I want not what God wants.

What happens Parker is when I listen to myself guess what? I always get hurt. And worse I did it to myself. But when I let the HS move me, I not only do not hurt myself I do not hurt others. Thats God working through me Parker.

But where I think you and I are getting confused is revelation. Personal revelation. Is that what you are talking about? Or am I out in left field here? Because there are different kinds Parker. Let me know if this is what you mean or something else. Thanks Parker

Rinnie,
That’s wonderful about your Dad. When I use the term “personal revelation” I am talking about being guided in individual, personal decisions in life, and in understanding the truths talked about in the scriptures.

A young person may have choices regarding which university to attend. There may be a reason that God has in store for them if they choose one particular university to attend. (For example, maybe they will meet the person whom they will eventually marry.) The Holy Spirit can guide them in making that choice, so that they can enjoy a fruit of the Spirit in finding a wonderful person to marry whom God already knows about.

Then the other aspect of personal revelation is receiving wisdom while reading the Bible, to understand difficult passages or to receive insights that will strengthen the person to really live by the teachings of Jesus and the apostles because it becomes a part of their innermost soul. The Bible may be said to be speaking to them personally, and they will feel a personal relationship (a covenant relationship including two-way communication) with Jesus Christ.

 

[rinnie]

Oh I know now what you are talking about. There is a name for that Parker. The Church has a name for that its 2 words. I can’t remember them but I will get back to you on that.

Here is what it is, tell me is you agree. It happens different ways. Here is one way it happend to me. I was reading the bible, now we both know when you understand the bible, scripture cannot contradict scripture it ties into eachother

So anyway this certain chapter, no matter what I read this week kept comming up over and over. Had nothing to do with my life at that moment. A week later I needed that reading more than any other time in my life.

Another time I was having problems and read the bible and God knew just where to send me in the bible to give me comfort.

Another time I read this scripture a thousand times. But this one day it was like I saw it for the first time. It was like having something right in front of your eyes for your whole life and then just noticed it.

But here is the thing Parker. You must understand scripture first. So you must be taught. Now after you are taught and truely understand it, then God talks to you and only you through it. BUt you must understand what it is truely saying before God can relate to only you. I think where you were misled Parker is you don’t think Catholics read the bible. Parker my Dad read it ever single day for 63 years. But evertime he read it he learned something new. Where if you read a novel you could not do that. You would get bored. BUt you could read the bible ever hour on the hour and never learn enough. But Catholic’s are taught not to interpret scripture because you will get lost in what God is saying. Then once you learn what God is saying then you can incorporate it into your life.

Here is an example. Jesus said I will tear down the temple and rebuild it in 3 days. Now if you knew nothing of Jesus and were never taught scripture and read that for the first time you would like those People thing he was crazy.

But as the APOSTLES TAUGHT us Jesus was the temple. See what I am saying. Scripture is hidden and only God can open your eyes. But to make sure that we get the right meaning he left us the Church,

If not Parker you and I would argue for a thousand years on that scripture. You would say no Jesus did not rebuild the temple, I would say yes he did he rose in 3 days. You would say I agree he did raise in 3 days but he did not rebuild the temple. Do you see what I am saying Parker.

Catholics are told to read and re-read and pray every single day. But understand what you are reading first. Never Parker was the bible forbidden for Catholics to read. Only interpret on their own. Only because God wants us to all understand. Then when we understand he talks to us.

But when people try to interpret it themself and feel that they have the power of the HS to do that everyone fights, Who is right Parker, your version, mine, we can’t both be right. See what I mean. That is why Jesus says point blank in the bible certain people are called by the Holy Spirit to do different things.

Priest’s have the power of the HS to give the sacraments, teach. etc.

Parents have the Power of the HS to lead them to have children be wifes, parents.

SIngle people have their gifts.

Bottom line Parker we can have all Chiefs and no Indians. It will not work. Just like we can’t have many Church’s we can Only have one church, many people.

One Chief Parker the (Pope) And the Bishops who are in communion with him. All Bishops are Chiefs of their CHurchs. ANd many many Indians Parker. thats us.

Just like a RC Priest is called to serve only God. A Husband and wife to serve eachother. Etc.

If we had all RC Priests there would be no INDIANS Parker.

 

[ParkerD]

Oh I know now what you are talking about. There is a name for that Parker. The Church has a name for that its 2 words. I can’t remember them but I will get back to you on that.

Here is what it is, tell me is you agree. It happens different ways. Here is one way it happened to me. I was reading the bible, now we both know when you understand the bible, scripture cannot contradict scripture it ties into each other

So anyway this certain chapter, no matter what I read this week kept coming up over and over. Had nothing to do with my life at that moment. A week later I needed that reading more than any other time in my life.

Another time I was having problems and read the bible and God knew just where to send me in the bible to give me comfort.

Another time I read this scripture a thousand times. But this one day it was like I saw it for the first time. It was like having something right in front of your eyes for your whole life and then just noticed it.

You must understand scripture first. So you must be taught. Now after you are taught and truely understand it, then God talks to you and only you through it. BUt you must understand what it is truely saying before God can relate to only you. I think where you were misled Parker is you don’t think Catholics read the bible. Parker my Dad read it ever single day for 63 years. But evertime he read it he learned something new. Where if you read a novel you could not do that. You would get bored. BUt you could read the bible ever hour on the hour and never learn enough. But Catholic’s are taught not to interpret scripture because you will get lost in what God is saying. Then once you learn what God is saying then you can incorporate it into your life.

Here is an example. Jesus said I will tear down the temple and rebuild it in 3 days… But as the APOSTLES TAUGHT us Jesus was the temple. See what I am saying. Scripture is hidden and only God can open your eyes. But to make sure that we get the right meaning he left us the Church,

If not Parker you and I would argue for a thousand years on that scripture. You would say no Jesus did not rebuild the temple, I would say yes he did he rose in 3 days. You would say I agree he did raise in 3 days but he did not rebuild the temple.

Catholics are told to read and re-read and pray every single day. But understand what you are reading first. Never Parker was the bible forbidden for Catholics to read. Only interpret on their own. Only because God wants us to all understand. Then when we understand he talks to us.

But when people try to interpret it themself and feel that they have the power of the HS to do that everyone fights, Who is right Parker, your version, mine, we can’t both be right. See what I mean. That is why Jesus says point blank in the bible certain people are called by the Holy Spirit to do different things.

Priest’s have the power of the HS to give the sacraments, teach. etc.

Parents have the Power of the HS to lead them to have children be wifes, parents.

SIngle people have their gifts.

Bottom line Parker we can have all Chiefs and no Indians. It will not work. Just like we can’t have many Church’s we can Only have one church, many people.

One Chief Parker the (Pope) And the Bishops who are in communion with him. All Bishops are Chiefs of their CHurchs. ANd many many Indians Parker. thats us.

Just like a RC Priest is called to serve only God. A Husband and wife to serve eachother. Etc.

If we had all RC Priests there would be no INDIANS Parker.

Rinnie,
I enjoyed reading about your personal experiences with getting insights from the Bible that have impacted your life, and I do think those instances are examples of being led by the Holy Spirit in what you have studied in the Bible and how the words have brought deep personal meaning into your life, especially when you may have needed a particular scripture to help you.

As to your other comments, perhaps you remember a couple of passages in Exodus and Numbers, as follows:

Numbers 11:29 “…would God that all the Lord’s people were prophets, and that the Lord would put his spirit upon them!”

Exodus 19:5 “Now therefore, if ye will obey my voice indeed, and keep my covenant, then ye shall be a peculiar treasure unto me above all people: for all the earth is mine:
6 And ye shall be unto me a kingdom of priests, and an holy nation. These are the words which thou shalt speak unto the children of Israel.
7 And Moses came and called for the elders of the people, and laid before their faces all these words which the Lord commanded him.”

Consider also this verse from Isaiah 11:
9 They shall not hurt nor destroy in all my holy mountain: for the earth shall be full of the knowledge of the Lord, as the waters cover the sea.

I don’t worry about there being “too many chiefs, and not enough Indians” when the Holy Spirit is guiding people. The Holy Spirit is a sure guide, and people can learn to follow that guidance without being controlled in how they do it.

For example, my wife and I were asked a week and a half ago to speak in our church service the following Sunday (this past Sunday is when we gave our talks, twelve or so minutes each). We are lay members, but were trusted enough to give the “major messages” to the general congregation of members for that Sunday service.

Why? Because we were known to be worthy (not perfect, but keeping the commandments and seeking to love God), and because we were trusted to be able to listen to the promptings of the Holy Spirit in preparing a message. We had an assigned subject: “having clean hands and a pure heart.” (Psalms 24:4)

We followed the Holy Spirit as we prepared our talks during the week. We had been trusted that we could, and we did indeed feel the guidance of the Holy Spirit as we thought about and prepared our messages, then also as we spoke during the meeting itself.

That is the kind of thing that should happen as the Holy Spirit is involved in the lives of lay members of the church. It doesn’t mean everyone goes off and has their own doctrinal understanding. It does mean that people can be trusted to listen to the guidance of the Holy Spirit and can teach others because of that level of trust. Then the Priest (or bishop) becomes the “overseer” in the sense of also teaching but letting others teach so that they too can be familiar with the promptings of the Holy Spirit and can grow in their own ability to heed those promptings.

The Jewish rabbis and Pharisees could never have accepted this kind of approach to teaching and allowing the Holy Spirit to lead people. They wanted to give all the guidance themselves. I see a similar pattern in what you described. I simply disagree with that pattern.

 

[rinnie]

Hi Parker, But now where do you see this pattern? In the RCC. If you see it, you are wrong Parker. In the RCC we are also to become teachers of the faith. We are asked also to help others in the faith and teach and share with them our faith.

But the thing is this Parker a teacher cannot teach if a teacher cannot read. Do you see what I am saying.

If I am called to teach others in the Church God called me yes Parker. And through the Power of the HS I know in my heart I have to accept. But I must teach Parker how Jesus taught. Not how I think I should teach. Thats where the Chief and Indians come in Parker.

Look at the Apostles did they not have to be taught by Jesus. Look at the bible Parker it was not until Pentecost that their ears and eyes were open to scripture. Jesus was with them and they still did not understand.

Lets exercise common sense again Parker, Just common sense. Okay now if we all have the Power of the Holy Spirit to define scripture why did Jesus leave the Apostles. Why did he just not use baptism to show us the truth? Why did he tell the Apostles to go and Baptise in my name and teach. Then why did he say pick teachers, but be very careful in who you choose? Choose? Why Parker? Why did he not just say when the HS enters man he will know exactly what to do? Why did he leave us the Church Parker.

Think about it, He never left us the bible he left us the Church. Now why isn’t everything written in the bible Parker? Is the Bible not inspired by God. But why was there things he left the Church to teach us too?

You must ask why Parker. And why the laying of hand Parker? Why not private revelation? Why did it have to be a sacrament. An outward sign instituted by Christ to give Grace? Think about it? Why did he go to all that trouble.

God knew that there would be people Parker to pull us from the True Church. He told us point blank. But he said to stick with the Early Fathers of the Church. Thats the Apostles Parker and the Pope is traced directly to Peter. That is how we are sure.

 

[rinnie]

[SIGN][/SIGN]

Rinnie,
I enjoyed reading about your personal experiences with getting insights from the Bible that have impacted your life, and I do think those instances are examples of being led by the Holy Spirit in what you have studied in the Bible and how the words have brought deep personal meaning into your life, especially when you may have needed a particular scripture to help you.

As to your other comments, perhaps you remember a couple of passages in Exodus and Numbers, as follows:

Numbers 11:29 “…would God that all the Lord’s people were prophets, and that the Lord would put his spirit upon them!”

Exodus 19:5 “Now therefore, if ye will obey my voice indeed, and keep my covenant, then ye shall be a peculiar treasure unto me above all people: for all the earth is mine:
6 And ye shall be unto me a kingdom of priests, and an holy nation. These are the words which thou shalt speak unto the children of Israel.
7 And Moses came and called for the elders of the people, and laid before their faces all these words which the Lord commanded him.”

Consider also this verse from Isaiah 11:
9 They shall not hurt nor destroy in all my holy mountain: for the earth shall be full of the knowledge of the Lord, as the waters cover the sea.

I don’t worry about there being “too many chiefs, and not enough Indians” when the Holy Spirit is guiding people. The Holy Spirit is a sure guide, and people can learn to follow that guidance without being controlled in how they do it.

For example, my wife and I were asked a week and a half ago to speak in our church service the following Sunday (this past Sunday is when we gave our talks, twelve or so minutes each). We are lay members, but were trusted enough to give the “major messages” to the general congregation of members for that Sunday service.

Why? Because we were known to be worthy (not perfect, but keeping the commandments and seeking to love God), and because we were trusted to be able to listen to the promptings of the Holy Spirit in preparing a message. We had an assigned subject: “having clean hands and a pure heart.” (Psalms 24:4)

We followed the Holy Spirit as we prepared our talks during the week. We had been trusted that we could, and we did indeed feel the guidance of the Holy Spirit as we thought about and prepared our messages, then also as we spoke during the meeting itself.

That is the kind of thing that should happen as the Holy Spirit is involved in the lives of lay members of the church. It doesn’t mean everyone goes off and has their own doctrinal understanding. It does mean that people can be trusted to listen to the guidance of the Holy Spirit and can teach others because of that level of trust. Then the Priest (or bishop) becomes the “overseer” in the sense of also teaching but letting others teach so that they too can be familiar with the promptings of the Holy Spirit and can grow in their own ability to heed those promptings.

The Jewish rabbis and Pharisees could never have accepted this kind of approach to teaching and allowing the Holy Spirit to lead people. They wanted to give all the guidance themselves. I see a similar pattern in what you described. I simply disagree with that pattern.

See that is not the CHurch, we have Lay People, People of the parish helping Father teach! Father never wants to keep anything to himself. He just wants to make sure we teach the TRUTH of Jesus Christ not our truth. You must have the laying of hands passed down the way Jesus did it. You do not have the authority do Baptise Parker, Can you offer me Absolution for my sins? Sure I can teach you what God left the Church to teach. But I do not have the power of the HS. IF I did I could marry, Baptise, etc. Think about it Parker. Do you?

 

[ParkerD]

Hi Parker, But now where do you see this pattern? In the RCC. If you see it, you are wrong Parker. In the RCC we are also to become teachers of the faith. We are asked also to help others in the faith and teach and share with them our faith.

But the thing is this Parker a teacher cannot teach if a teacher cannot read. Do you see what I am saying.

If I am called to teach others in the Church God called me yes Parker. And through the Power of the HS I know in my heart I have to accept. But I must teach Parker how Jesus taught. Not how I think I should teach. Thats where the Chief and Indians come in Parker.

Look at the Apostles did they not have to be taught by Jesus. Look at the bible Parker it was not until Pentecost that their ears and eyes were open to scripture. Jesus was with them and they still did not understand.

Lets exercise common sense again Parker, Just common sense. Okay now if we all have the Power of the Holy Spirit to define scripture why did Jesus leave the Apostles. Why did he just not use baptism to show us the truth? Why did he tell the Apostles to go and Baptise in my name and teach. Then why did he say pick teachers, but be very careful in who you choose? Choose? Why Parker? Why did he not just say when the HS enters man he will know exactly what to do? Why did he leave us the Church Parker.

Think about it, He never left us the bible he left us the Church. Now why isn’t everything written in the bible Parker? Is the Bible not inspired by God. But why was there things he left the Church to teach us too?

You must ask why Parker. And why the laying of hand Parker? Why not private revelation? Why did it have to be a sacrament. An outward sign instituted by Christ to give Grace? Think about it? Why did he go to all that trouble.

God knew that there would be people Parker to pull us from the True Church. He told us point blank. But he said to stick with the Early Fathers of the Church. Thats the Apostles Parker and the Pope is traced directly to Peter. That is how we are sure.

Rinnie,
I agree that the Apostles were vitally important to keep the doctrines pure. I think they did keep the doctrines pure, while they were alive and among the members. They certainly did have the laying on of hands to receive authority to do that.

This thread has been about one of those apostles, John, who foresaw that the church was going to be taken into the wilderness “for a time, and times, and half a time” while the serpent or dragon stayed around to “make war with the remnant of her seed”. The prophet Daniel had seen and prophesied of that same time in the history of the world.

So where we disagree is that if God “said to stick with the Early Fathers of the Church” then how could we if some of the “early fathers of the church” didn’t stick with the apostles–didn’t follow their authority and didn’t keep the same doctrines they had so carefully taught?

 

[ParkerD]

See that is not the CHurch, we have Lay People, People of the parish helping Father teach! Father never wants to keep anything to himself. He just wants to make sure we teach the TRUTH of Jesus Christ not our truth. You must have the laying of hands passed down the way Jesus did it. You do not have the authority do Baptise Parker, Can you offer me Absolution for my sins? Sure I can teach you what God left the Church to teach. But I do not have the power of the HS. IF I did I could marry, Baptise, etc. Think about it Parker. Do you?

Rinnie,
I certainly can’t offer anyone “absolution” for their sins, nor do I believe that is a correct doctrine.

I could baptize someone if I were asked to do so by the bishop of the person who needed to be baptized. I do have that authority. I also have the authority to bless the sick to get well. I don’t have the authority to perform a marriage.

I have received the authority that I do have by the laying on of hands, just as you mentioned. I am totally in agreement with that principle.

 

[rinnie]

Rinnie,
I agree that the Apostles were vitally important to keep the doctrines pure. I think they did keep the doctrines pure, while they were alive and among the members. They certainly did have the laying on of hands to receive authority to do that.

This thread has been about one of those apostles, John, who foresaw that the church was going to be taken into the wilderness “for a time, and times, and half a time” while the serpent or dragon stayed around to “make war with the remnant of her seed”. The prophet Daniel had seen and prophesied of that same time in the history of the world.

So where we disagree is that if God “said to stick with the Early Fathers of the Church” then how could we if some of the “early fathers of the church” didn’t stick with the apostles–didn’t follow their authority and didn’t keep the same doctrines they had so carefully taught?

Because see Parker thats why you missed it in the scripture. If you had the power of the HS to define scripture it would have been clear to you. Jesus said that was IMPOSSIBLE. He said I am with you always until the end of time. He said hades would never prevail. Now if what you are saying is true then Jesus lied right?

Now here is the thing, you either misinterpretated scripture or Jesus Lied. See what I am saying? And scripture CANNOT contradict scripture. Now I know I am right because Jesus promised I am with you always until the end of time. DO you agree or disagree that he meant that when he said it? ANd do you agree that he is still with us? See what I mean? SO you have to be seeing it wrong, unless you disagree with him being here with us until the end.

I know he is here Parker in the Eucharist every single Sunday. Or Parker do you deny the Eucharist Also?

So do you agree that he is still here Parker or did he leave? Because he promised he never would?

 

[rinnie]

Now think back what we agree on Parker the laying of hands. Thats the POwer of the HS. Now If you agree with what Jesus said. He said what My Father has given to me I know give to you, now he passed on the HS. Now if Jesus had the Power he had the Power from God to pass it on. Now the Apostles have the Power to pass it on. Its still from the same Place From my Father in Heaven. Its the same Power Parker. Who took it away. Hell did not prevail. The Church is still here, and the line of succession is still going on. You must see this. Think about it for awhile.

 

[ParkerD]

Because see Parker thats why you missed it in the scripture. If you had the power of the HS to define scripture it would have been clear to you. Jesus said that was IMPOSSIBLE. He said I am with you always until the end of time. He said hades would never prevail. Now if what you are saying is true then Jesus lied right?

Now here is the thing, you either misinterpretated scripture or Jesus Lied. See what I am saying? And scripture CANNOT contradict scripture. Now I know I am right because Jesus promised I am with you always until the end of time. DO you agree or disagree that he meant that when he said it? ANd do you agree that he is still with us? See what I mean? SO you have to be seeing it wrong, unless you disagree with him being here with us until the end.

I know he is here Parker in the Eucharist every single Sunday. Or Parker do you deny the Eucharist Also?

So do you agree that he is still here Parker or did he leave? Because he promised he never would?

Rinnie,
I absolutely know that Jesus is with every single person who is with Him. The people who need to choose whether they are with Him is every single one of us, since the day He made that statement. When He promised “I am with you always until the end of time,” He was promising to be with every person who will keep His teachings “to do them”, and to support them in their trials and struggles in life, and to offer the blessings of His atonement to them for all eternity. He always does this, to everyone who comes unto Him with a broken heart and a contrite spirit.

 

[rinnie]

Rinnie,
I certainly can’t offer anyone “absolution” for their sins, nor do I believe that is a correct doctrine.

I could baptize someone if I were asked to do so by the bishop of the person who needed to be baptized. I do have that authority. I also have the authority to bless the sick to get well. I don’t have the authority to perform a marriage.

I have received the authority that I do have by the laying on of hands, just as you mentioned. I am totally in agreement with that principle.

But see Parker you don’t. You just admitted it. ALL POWER OF HEAVEN AND EARTH HAVE BEEN GIVEN TO ME I NOW GIVE IT TO YOU. You cannot give me any sacraments Parker. Only Baptism in a emergency. That power we have in only certain circumstances. You are a true Apostle or you are not Parker. You were not called to be a true Apostle of the Church or you would have it. You could also ordain Priests and the RCC would accept this Parker.

Think about it ALL POWER FROM HEAVEN AND EARTH HAS BEEN GIVEN TO ME AND I NOW GIVE IT TO YOU. Why do you not have ALL the power Parker. See what I mean?

 

[rinnie]

Rinnie,
I absolutely know that Jesus is with every single person who is with Him. The people who need to choose whether they are with Him is every single one of us, since the day He made that statement. When He promised “I am with you always until the end of time,” He was promising to be with every person who will keep His teachings “to do them”, and to support them in their trials and struggles in life, and to offer the blessings of His atonement to them for all eternity. He always does this, to everyone who comes unto Him with a broken heart and a contrite spirit.

Exactly Parker, so he never hid from us and never will Parker. Never, does a Father ever hide from his Child. So see what I am saying. Jesus Christ is the Church, he is not hidden not ever. He is alive and well in the EUCHARIST. This is my body, my blood, how could we ever eat the bread of life if it is hidden from us Parker?

 

[rinnie]

Hey bud I gotta roll. But promise to get back to you tommorow. Ask anything you want will answer tommorow.

 

[ParkerD]

But see Parker you don’t. You just admitted it. ALL POWER OF HEAVEN AND EARTH HAVE BEEN GIVEN TO ME I NOW GIVE IT TO YOU. You cannot give me any sacraments Parker. Only Baptism in a emergency. That power we have in only certain circumstances. You are a true Apostle or you are not Parker. You were not called to be a true Apostle of the Church or you would have it. You could also ordain Priests and the RCC would accept this Parker.

Think about it ALL POWER FROM HEAVEN AND EARTH HAS BEEN GIVEN TO ME AND I NOW GIVE IT TO YOU. Why do you not have ALL the power Parker. See what I mean?

Rinnie,
I totally agree that the power and authority of Christ was given to the apostles. They held the keys, and gave authority to others based on holding those keys.

The disconnect comes when someone other than an apostle said, “I have the keys Peter held.” They didn’t, because if they had received those keys it would have been in the same way that Peter received them and they would have been ordained an apostle. John held those keys also. He was alive when someone else was saying “I have the keys Peter held” (or at least that’s how it has been presented). John held keys even after Peter had been killed–the keys of apostleship, of apostolic authority. He could bind on earth and it would be bound in heaven. Those were the keys John held. It was specific authority given with the office of apostle.

I don’t have keys, but I do have authority to do certain things (as I noted before), and it is from the same source as the authority Christ gave to Peter and the other apostles, just not in the same magnitude. That doesn’t make me an apostle, but it does make me part of a “kingdom of priests” just as Moses received word that this was the intent of God for His “peculiar people.”

 

[rinnie]

Rinnie,
I totally agree that the power and authority of Christ was given to the apostles. They held the keys, and gave authority to others based on holding those keys.

The disconnect comes when someone other than an apostle said, “I have the keys Peter held.” They didn’t, because if they had received those keys it would have been in the same way that Peter received them and they would have been ordained an apostle. John held those keys also. He was alive when someone else was saying “I have the keys Peter held” (or at least that’s how it has been presented). John held keys even after Peter had been killed–the keys of apostleship, of apostolic authority. He could bind on earth and it would be bound in heaven. Those were the keys John held. It was specific authority given with the office of apostle.

I don’t have keys, but I do have authority to do certain things (as I noted before), and it is from the same source as the authority Christ gave to Peter and the other apostles, just not in the same magnitude. That doesn’t make me an apostle, but it does make me part of a “kingdom of priests” just as Moses received word that this was the intent of God for His “peculiar people.”

Ok Parker we are making progress. Now I gotta run today Wed. (Moms day) but lets think what you stated. Okay now do this for me when I am gone. I will check back late tonight or probally tommorow morn.

You said Jesus gave all of the Apostles the keys? Okay Parker where? My bible says you are Peter and to YOU not to all of the apostles I give youn’s (thats a south western Pa word as far as I know we are the only ones who use it) But show me the scipture when Jesus is not just talking to Peter, and where it does not just say YOU.

Okay now you said you have the authority. Okay now where did that authority come from. Because we both agree it is and always has been by the laying of hands handed down from a Apostle who was straight from that room with Jesus.

Now I agree that we have the GIFT of the Holy Spirit, and by that gift of GRACE we are baptised and become a part of the family of Chirst. But where did you receive the Power of the Holy Spirit to do what the Apostles did? See you admit you don’t have that power. But see they did. And you admit authority you cannot or do not have. But see Parker thats why theere are Bishops, Priests do not have the authority as Bishops, there are ranks. Just like the goverment.

Now here is the 2nd scripture I want to see from you tommorow. Show me where John said he received the KEYS TO THE KINGDOM. I need to see that scripture. Because in my bible only Peter received them. But if you can show me where John received them I have to agree with you. Now authoirty given by the HS is not the same as the keys.

3rd thing I want you to do for me. KEYS TO THE KINGDOM. That has another meaning also Parker it ties into the OT. Find out for me what that meaning is. I think that will help alot.

See you tommorow and have a wonderful Peaceful day!

 

[placido]

Rinnie,
I totally agree that the power and authority of Christ was given to the apostles. They held the keys, and gave authority to others based on holding those keys.

I do neither agree nor disagree, because I am not sure I understand you correctly. Where do you get the idea that the apostles held the keys? And, do you mean “the keys of the kingdom of heaven” or some other keys?

The disconnect comes when someone other than an apostle said, “I have the keys Peter held.”

I see. That “someone other than an apostle” was not clever enough because he failed to first of all give himself the title of “apostle” before claiming to have the keys. So, the LDS “apostles” were clever eh?

They didn’t, because if they had received those keys it would have been in the same way that Peter received them and they would have been ordained an apostle.

Where did you get that idea from?

John held those keys also.

If John held “those keys also”, someone must have given them to him. Now where is your Biblical evidence for that? (Please quote the Bible, not a work of fiction that purport to be Scripture).

He was alive when someone else was saying “I have the keys Peter held” (or at least that’s how it has been presented).

And he was still alive in 1829 (according to you) when Joseph Smith said “I have the keys Peter held”.
You see, if John is still alive and he held the keys, then it follows that he still holds the keys … yet he is excluded from your church leadership because Joseph Smith said “I have the keys”.

John held keys even after Peter had been killed–the keys of apostleship, of apostolic authority.
He could bind on earth and it would be bound in heaven. Those were the keys John held.

I know that, with or without evidence, you need to believe that John “held the keys” because your entire faith system depends on him having the keys after Peter’s death.

It was specific authority given with the office of apostle.

So, if I claim (here and now) that I was made an apostle by someone who appeared and disappeared without trace, then that means I am really an apostle and do really have those keys (no evidence needed), right?

placido

 

[ParkerD]

I do neither agree nor disagree, because I am not sure I understand you correctly. Where do you get the idea that the apostles held the keys? And, do you mean “the keys of the kingdom of heaven” or some other keys?

I see. That “someone other than an apostle” was not clever enough because he failed to first of all give himself the title of “apostle” before claiming to have the keys. So, the LDS “apostles” were clever eh?

Where did you get that idea from?

If John held “those keys also”, someone must have given them to him. Now where is your Biblical evidence for that? (Please quote the Bible, not a work of fiction that purport to be Scripture).

And he was still alive in 1829 (according to you) when Joseph Smith said “I have the keys Peter held”.
You see, if John is still alive and he held the keys, then it follows that he still holds the keys … yet he is excluded from your church leadership because Joseph Smith said “I have the keys”.

I know that, with or without evidence, you need to believe that John “held the keys” because your entire faith system depends on him having the keys after Peter’s death.

So, if I claim (here and now) that I was made an apostle by someone who appeared and disappeared without trace, then that means I am really an apostle and do really have those keys (no evidence needed), right?

placido

Hi, Placido,
John had a “new assignment” when he became a translated being. He had finished his assignments as a mortal person, including writing the book of Revelation. He did join with Peter and John to give the keys and authority of the priesthood to Joseph Smith and Oliver Cowdery which they held as apostles, and could have done that whenever it was the right time and the right place in God’s plan. Christ brings about God’s plan for His children. Prophets and apostles act under the direction of Christ.

As I had said before to you, of course John would not stand in front of everyone and say “Here I am, look at me, I am one of the original Twelve Apostles–follow me, everyone.” Why not? Because God does not work by signs to try and bring people to belief. Signs FOLLOW them that believe. God works through mortal people, imperfect people, to do most of His work on the earth except that Christ inspires and directs and upholds that work, and His atonement is at its very foundation and enables it all to happen.

But when anyone has said “I have the keys Peter held,” if that was a true statement they would be more than just a bishop in terms of their authority, because being a bishop is not the same thing as being an apostle. I for one can discern that a person that said such a thing did not know what they were talking about, because of their logic and because such a teaching (that bishops were going to get the keys from the apostles to guide the whole church) was never, ever taught by the apostles or by Christ Himself, nor was it ever even remotely inferred that the bishop of Rome was going to be the “head bishop”.