If the church was in hiding ...

[ThuriferAcolyte]

Dear Parker, This is what you said “it is foolish to pray about things you know are not God’s will.”" What are you saying humans are to know God Will at all times

He quoted a CAF article, and I presented the entire quote. The quote is important because it’s foolish for a Catholic to pray to know whether the Book of Mormon is scripture, because we already know that it isn’t, just like how we don’t need to pray to God to know whether it’s okay to commit adultery.

 

[wisdomseeker]

ThuriferAcolyte,
Since the question by FBL9 about authority and the possibility of its revocation is what led to my response about prayer, then perhaps you could answer whether it would be “foolish” to pray whether authority is from God, or whether there exists the possibility that such authority has been revoked?

it is foolish to think that God has abandoned His people since He promised He wouldnt.

Authority is from God and He gave to His Apostles and to those whom the Apostles chose. a line of umbroken succession. if one in authority is being dissobedient to God then God would take him out and put another in his place just like Isaiah 22 shows.
You need to pray humbly before God that you may see His Church. that we should pray for it.

 

[wisdomseeker]

Rinnie,
By the way, have a wonderful evening and a great day tomorrow.

Wisdom Seeker,
I have no doubt that you are kinder in real life than your last post comes across as being. I am so very grateful that you are in no position to judge whether I have authority or whether Christ is with anyone other than yourself. I read things like what you wrote and think of the Wizard of Oz and the man behind the curtain pulling levers and pushing buttons and speaking “words with no knowledge.” Ah, well. Such is life.

it is funny how you say this to me because you have put yourself in a position to judge that the CC is not the True Church. you criticize me for telling you the Truth yet you tell me i have no knowledge. says who? you. where did you get your authority to tell me such at thing.

yes, i am very kinder and i have not said anything here that shows i am not. my desire is that all come to the knowledge of the Truth.

 

[ParkerD]

Dear Parker, This is what you said “it is foolish to pray about things you know are not God’s will.”" What are you saying humans are to know God Will at all times

Bill,
No–that is what a Catholic “scholar” said, not me. I was quoting them.

 

[ParkerD]

1. Now please show us where in Rinnie’s quote the authority figure(s) said that it is foolish to pray about such and such a thing.
2. Yes, God offers a person many truths and insights. However such truths and insights revealed through personal revelation are not binding on all. All that is necessary for salvation has already been revealed. Sure, personal revelation may help a person, however such revelations are not required, since God has already revealed the way to salvation. God might tell me to go to church everyday and pray and meditate before the Real Presence, however that is not binding on all people, nor does it add to what is necessary for salvation. Such revelations HELP us on that path, however they are not required. The rosary is nice to pray, however it is not required. The stations of the cross is nice to pray, however it is not required. It’s nice to read about the various Marian apparitions (personal revelations), however it is not required to believe in them.

TuriferAcolyte,
The quote said,

“Christian faith cannot accept REVELATIONS that claim to surpass or correct the Revelation of which Christ is the fulfillment as in the case in certain non-Christian religions and also in certain recent sects which base themselves on such REVELATIONS.”

Ezekiel said there was going to be a “stick (writing) of Joseph” or “Ephraim and his fellows” that was going to be joined with the “stick (writing) of Judah” (meaning the Bible, the compiled writings of Jewish prophets and apostles and of Luke). There was going to be another stick to help the house of Israel become united, no longer divided, and the sticks were going to be joined together to do that. That “stick” would have required revelation, and it would be pertinent to salvation, and yet the scholars who believe the catechism quoted here and wrote the article we both cited have called praying about whether the Book of Mormon could be the “stick of Joseph” and be “revelation” a foolish idea.

1. Your post shows that when you talk about personal revelation (such as apparitions) is not anything like what I am talking about when I talk about personal revelation. Personal revelation says to someone, “act differently next time, learn from your mistake, act in a more loving way, desist in a bad habit that is hurting yourself or hurting your family, be more humble, be more kind, change in how you respond to anger,” or a hundred different other insights. It tells the person, “you can do this–Christ will help.” It tells the person, “you have made a covenant that you can keep, and Christ will help you keep it.” Personal revelation can guide a person every single day of their life, if they are listening to the Holy Spirit guiding them. It means their salvation isn’t finished–it has only begun, because salvation means change into someone new, someone on the path to progress that is the path to perfection just as Christ is perfect. But how can Christ guide in that progress and carry the burdens of that progress if a person says to oneself, “No revelation is required for me to listen to. I know everything I need to know.”

 

[ThuriferAcolyte]

TuriferAcolyte,
The quote said,

Ezekiel said there was going to be a “stick (writing) of Joseph” or “Ephraim and his fellows” that was going to be joined with the “stick (writing) of Judah” (meaning the Bible, the compiled writings of Jewish prophets and apostles and of Luke). There was going to be another stick to help the house of Israel become united, no longer divided, and the sticks were going to be joined together to do that. That “stick” would have required revelation, and it would be pertinent to salvation, and yet the scholars who believe the catechism quoted here and wrote the article we both cited have called praying about whether the Book of Mormon could be the “stick of Joseph” and be “revelation” a foolish idea.

Firstly, that is your and your church’s interpretation of what Ezekiel means. And yes, as Catholics, we firmly believe that the idea that the Book of Mormon (and any other “Books” that have surfaced throughout the history of Christianity) is scripture, “another” testament of Jesus Christ, is foolish. It is unnecessary to pray to know whether the Book of Mormon is the “stick of Joseph”. There are various interpretations of what this is referring to, and your statement above is based on the Mormon understanding of that statement.

1. Your post shows that when you talk about personal revelation (such as apparitions) is not anything like what I am talking about when I talk about personal revelation. Personal revelation says to someone, “act differently next time, learn from your mistake, act in a more loving way, desist in a bad habit that is hurting yourself or hurting your family, be more humble, be more kind, change in how you respond to anger,” or a hundred different other insights. It tells the person, “you can do this–Christ will help.” It tells the person, “you have made a covenant that you can keep, and Christ will help you keep it.” Personal revelation can guide a person every single day of their life, if they are listening to the Holy Spirit guiding them. It means their salvation isn’t finished–it has only begun, because salvation means change into someone new, someone on the path to progress that is the path to perfection just as Christ is perfect. But how can Christ guide in that progress and carry the burdens of that progress if a person says to oneself, “No revelation is required for me to listen to. I know everything I need to know.”

Nowhere did I say that personal revelation is an apparition. Apparitions can be part of a personal revelation, but they are not required for personal revelation. In fact, Catholics agree with everything you said as to personal revelation. And again, you put straw men up, because Catholics do not believe that “no revelation is required for me to listen to. I know everything I need to know.”. What Catholics do say, as I have repeatedly said before, is that we do not need to pray about certain things that we do already know, such as whether it is okay to commit adultery, whether it is okay to lie, whether it is okay to worship Zeus, and also, whether the Book of Mormon is scripture. In the Catholic worldview, it is unnecessary to pray to know any of the that.

“God continues to reveal Himself to individuals “not indeed for the declaration of any new doctrine of faith, but for the direction of human acts” (St. Thomas Aquinas, Summa Theologica II-II q174 a6 reply 3).”

 

[rinnie]

Rinnie,
Thanks again for your kindness. What you may have perceived as a struggle on my part is the question of “How much should I tell them?” I have enjoyed answering honest questions, and giving honest responses where I tried to build a framework for being understood, or to clarify when needed.

The quote you noted came from a non-Biblical source, but tries to be as “authoritative” as it can. It is exactly the kind of quote that I was talking about previously, done by men to preserve their role and their unquestioned authority–no questions asked. It is simply not true. But I understand that it works for you, and that’s OK. My delight is in the Bible itself and the scriptures themselves and the guidance of the Holy Spirit in day-to-day interactions and decisions.

Based on the CCC position, Eli should have told Samuel, “You were hearing things–go back to bed and forget it.” But Eli knew the source of revelation, and knew that Samuel could learn the source of revelation, could understand it, could understand the message, and should learn to trust in that message. That’s why Samuel could be called as a prophet–because he was prepared to listen to the Holy Spirit without having been told, “No–only I get all the answers” by Eli.

But you must ask yourself Parker why are they not questioned. They are I am sure, but they have the answers when they are. That is the whole point that you are missing.

See here is the thing put easy Parker. Nothing can be different then the teaching’s of Jesus Christ. Nothing. What the Church is saying is this. If Jesus said it it goes. If Jesus didn’t say it it does not go. That quote that I told you ties into SS and Scripture. Everything does.

The Pope is never questioned Parker because he has no Authority above Jesus Christ. He is not here to share what HE thinks. or his opinions. He can share them but he cannot say this is the teaching Of Jesus Christ. Because NO ONE can do that. Do you see what I mean. Jesus made it that way not the Pope. The only Revelation we will ever get Parker is in defining scripture. Thats it. You say that you delight in scripture and having God talk to you through it. So do we Parker. And it could be possible that we could see something that everyone else could miss. Thats possible Parker God could use you or I. But the Pope and Bishops are the one to say Yes. You are right. That is the teaching of the Church. But it HAS to tie in 100% with every single part of the bible. Do you see what I am saying. Thats his job to make sure its not false. Thats it. But it cannot be totally opposite of what the rest of the bible says. Do you see what I am saying?

 

[rinnie]

[SIGN][/SIGN]

Firstly, that is your and your church’s interpretation of what Ezekiel means. And yes, as Catholics, we firmly believe that the idea that the Book of Mormon (and any other “Books” that have surfaced throughout the history of Christianity) is scripture, “another” testament of Jesus Christ, is foolish. It is unnecessary to pray to know whether the Book of Mormon is the “stick of Joseph”. There are various interpretations of what this is referring to, and your statement above is based on the Mormon understanding of that statement.

Nowhere did I say that personal revelation is an apparition. Apparitions can be part of a personal revelation, but they are not required for personal revelation. In fact, Catholics agree with everything you said as to personal revelation. And again, you put straw men up, because Catholics do not believe that “no revelation is required for me to listen to. I know everything I need to know.”. What Catholics do say, as I have repeatedly said before, is that we do not need to pray about certain things that we do already know, such as whether it is okay to commit adultery, whether it is okay to lie, whether it is okay to worship Zeus, and also, whether the Book of Mormon is scripture. In the Catholic worldview, it is unnecessary to pray to know any of the that.

“[SIGN]God continues to reveal Himself to individuals “not indeed for the declaration of any new doctrine of faith, but for the direction of human acts” (St. Thomas Aquinas, Summa [/SIGN]Theologica II-II q174 a6 reply 3).”

See parker now maybe you can understand what this means now. There will never be new doctrine of Faith, why because only God will do that. But see Parker there are parts of scripture that are not completely explained yet. But it will happen, but only when God reveals it to us. Like I said you do not have to be Catholic you could be a non-Christian for all that goes. Its Gods call not ours. Remember how God said sometimes even a child can see more then the smartest theologian. God can choose whoever he wants and he does. BUt we can know one thing for sure all the Church can promise is that if we have a personal revelation from God through scripture its the real thing.

It takes years Parker for the Church to make sure this indeed came from God. Because they will read and read and read and they understand every bit of the bible. I mean every word, and it must tie in. Do you understand what I am saying. Thats how when it comes from the Church we know it the truth.

 

[rinnie]

[SIGN][/SIGN]

Rinnie,
Thanks again for your kindness. What you may have perceived as a struggle on my part is the question of “[SIGN]How much should I tell them?” [/SIGN]I have enjoyed answering honest questions, and giving honest responses where I tried to build a framework for being understood, or to clarify when needed.

The quote you noted came from a non-Biblical source, but tries to be as “authoritative” as it can. It is exactly the kind of quote that I was talking about previously, done by men to preserve their role and their unquestioned authority–no questions asked. It is simply not true. But I understand that it works for you, and that’s OK. My delight is in the Bible itself and the scriptures themselves and the guidance of the Holy Spirit in day-to-day interactions and decisions.

Based on the CCC position, Eli should have told Samuel, “You were hearing things–go back to bed and forget it.” But Eli knew the source of revelation, and knew that Samuel could learn the source of revelation, could understand it, could understand the message, and should learn to trust in that message. That’s why Samuel could be called as a prophet–because he was prepared to listen to the Holy Spirit without having been told, “No–only I get all the answers” by Eli.

Now Parker this kinda bothers me. I think that no matter how this thread ends we will be friends. So I think I can tell you this and you will understand I would never say this to be mean or hurtfull. Now when you say how much should I tell them? The scripture comes to mind what is done in private between closed doors in the darkness is not of God. I know that’s not the exact scripture but I am sure you know what scripture I mean. If not I will find it. Just give me a little time.

But my point is Parker NOTHING should be hidden. If it is of God its in the light because God is nothing but the light. The RCC has never nor will ever hide any teaching. Why because it is the Light and God wants everyone to go to heaven.

Thats why he left the OPEN and Visable Catholic Church. God is nothing but pure Good and Pure light.

God from God, light from Light, True God from True God. Parker thats the teaching of the RCC. If the Pope knows it, he’s telling! Remember Parker begotten not made one IN BEING with the Father. Thats what the Apostles Creed, and the Church goes by their creed. Have a peaceful and wonderful evening Parker. And as always you are in my Prayers.

 

[wisdomseeker]

Rinnie,
I felt that I should end this on a more positive note, if possible.

Since the topic has become “authority” as delegated to mankind from God, may I make note of the important observation that God would give authority only on the basis of trust. He would entrust with authority only those whom He could trust, and if they betrayed His trust at any point in time, He could of course and would of course withdraw that authority. They could say they still “had it”, but that would only be their words doing what men do–which is claim authority that is not theirs to claim. Such an one would be very likely to insist they still had proper authority–in fact, they might be expected to insinuate that anyone who did not agree with them was “in big trouble” with God, such as being a “heretic” or worse. That is how the men in charge would assert they had authority and seek to preserve it, but that doesn’t make that process the correct one or the legitimate one. It is God’s authority to give and to revoke, always, and that authority, to be legitimate, is always based on whether the person can be trusted by God in how they deal with others and how they act when no one is around.

hold on to straws.

you are confused about authority. the Church, Parker, the Church. the Church is not one man. this is the protestant theology. before you can understand what we are talking about, first you need to understand what the Church is and what she represents here on earth.

when one man sins in the Church, it does not mean Jesus must abandon His Church. Jesus will bring a righteous one to take His office. because one man sinned in the Church, Jesus did not go out and built another church called mormon. it does not make any sense what you are saying here. it just doesnt.
God never abandoned Israel His people because the leader David commited a mortal sin. God did not abandon Israel because Solomon commited a mortal sin. the Church is the new Israel, God is not going to abandon His Church no matter what happens. if a pope sins, God will bring another who will lead His people. that is how works. God did not build the CC wiht one theology and then build another church with a different theology, complete different theology. no matter how you try, it will not work.

there is One Holy Catholic and Apostolic Church.

Peace.

 

[ParkerD]

[SIGN][/SIGN]

Now Parker this kinda bothers me. I think that no matter how this thread ends we will be friends. So I think I can tell you this and you will understand I would never say this to be mean or hurtfull. Now when you say how much should I tell them? The scripture comes to mind what is done in private between closed doors in the darkness is not of God. I know that’s not the exact scripture but I am sure you know what scripture I mean. If not I will find it. Just give me a little time.

But my point is Parker NOTHING should be hidden. If it is of God its in the light because God is nothing but the light. The RCC has never nor will ever hide any teaching. Why because it is the Light and God wants everyone to go to heaven.

Thats why he left the OPEN and Visable Catholic Church. God is nothing but pure Good and Pure light.

God from God, light from Light, True God from True God. Parker thats the teaching of the RCC. If the Pope knows it, he’s telling! Remember Parker begotten not made one IN BEING with the Father. Thats what the Apostles Creed, and the Church goes by their creed. Have a peaceful and wonderful evening Parker. And as always you are in my Prayers.

Rinnie,
Thanks for your prayers. I was talking about what Paul was talking about in 1 Corinthians 2 and 3. You can look it up and read it. Verse 12 talks about the “things that are freely given to us of God.” Verse 13, “which the Holy Ghost teacheth”. Verse 14, “they are spiritually discerned.” (To the natural man, they are foolishness.)

I might as well let you know that the Pope or all those earlier popes and theologians who came up with the CCC and all the other writings, mean absolutely nothing to me. I get more from reading five verses of scripture than a hundred paragraphs of any of those writings. Besides which, the Holy Spirit teaches and I am a willing listener. That is what Paul was saying was available to every person who makes the covenant of the gospel. The Pope may think he understands the Bible well, but some knowledge is hidden. The Holy Spirit offers the hidden knowledge that Paul talked about, but until a person (even the Pope) asks sincere and honest questions about what was plainly written but had a specific meaning, he just won’t get it. No one can confer spiritual discernment onto someone else. Each person has to “get it” for themselves. That is what spiritual discernment is all about.

Do have a wonderful night and a splendid day tomorrow. I need to spend time learning the words of several choir hymns to sing with a community choir in the upcoming General Conference of the LDS church where apostles and prophets speak the modern word of God. It will be enjoyable, but I had better get learning the words and learning the tenor parts. My wife is in it, too.

 

[ParkerD]

hold on to straws.

you are confused about authority. the Church, Parker, the Church. the Church is not one man. this is the protestant theology. before you can understand what we are talking about, first you need to understand what the Church is and what she represents here on earth.

when one man sins in the Church, it does not mean Jesus must abandon His Church. Jesus will bring a righteous one to take His office. because one man sinned in the Church, Jesus did not go out and built another church called mormon. it does not make any sense what you are saying here. it just doesnt.
God never abandoned Israel His people because the leader David commited a mortal sin. God did not abandon Israel because Solomon commited a mortal sin. the Church is the new Israel, God is not going to abandon His Church no matter what happens. if a pope sins, God will bring another who will lead His people. that is how works. God did not build the CC wiht one theology and then build another church with a different theology, complete different theology. no matter how you try, it will not work.

there is One Holy Catholic and Apostolic Church.

Peace.

Wisdom Seeker,
Thanks for the peaceful words. What I have meant is that God confers authority to those whom He trusts. If the trust is lost, then who did the “losing”? Not God–but men. When the bishops didn’t seek out the leadership of John and sustain his leadership, then they lost God’s trust. God had appointed the pattern of leadership, and it was with the apostles as the leading quorum of the church. When a bishop ever wrote that they had the keys from Peter, I would know immediately that such a bishop had lost the trust of God because apostleship keys were not passed on to bishops, and apostleship keys were necessary to keep the doctrines and the ordinances pure. The impurities happened after the authority was lost–at the same time the trust was lost. I’ve already listed some of the impurities. There are many. They are quite evident, just by comparing the Bible with the current beliefs and practices. Those are why the trust was lost, along with the authority.

 

[ParkerD]

Might be because of Luke 10:16: “Whoever listens to you listens to me. Whoever rejects you rejects me. And whoever rejects me rejects the one who sent me."

Then you simply disagree with Jesus. “Whoever listens to you listens to me. Whoever rejects you rejects me. And whoever rejects me rejects the one who sent me."

Yes, you think, but …

… the problem starts immediately after those who claim to have prayed sincerely, each “receives” an answer that contradicts the “answer” given to the next person who also claims to have prayed sincerely.

placido

Placido,
As I have indicated time and again, I have complete 100% assurance by the Holy Spirit that I have “listened to Jesus”, understand His voice and obey it as best I can, and need not trouble myself that just because the RCC takes a word like “it” and builds a whole church around their own meaning of the word “it”, anyone else should agree with their meaning. The meaning protects their beliefs for their members, and that is fine for that group of people. It is fine for you. You have done well in explaining your position. I think I have understood it. Thanks…

 

[placido]

Placido,
As I have indicated time and again, I have complete 100% assurance by the Holy Spirit that I have “listened to Jesus”, understand His voice and obey it as best I can, and need not trouble myself that just because the RCC takes a word like “it” and builds a whole church around their own meaning of the word “it”, anyone else should agree with their meaning. The meaning protects their beliefs for their members, and that is fine for that group of people. It is fine for you. You have done well in explaining your position. I think I have understood it. Thanks…

You have 100 % assurance by the Holy Spirit.
Pentecostals have 100 % assurance by the Holy Spirit yet they disagree with you.
Adventists have 100 % assurance by the Holy Spirit yet they disagree with you.
Jehovah’s Witnesses have 100 % assurance by the Holy Spirit yet they disagree with you.
Either the Holy Spirit is a spirit of confusion, or the spirit that gave you the 100 % assurance is a deceptive spirit.
Take your pick.

placido

 

[fbl9]

The CCC is based on scripture.
Book of Mormom declares itself beside scripture…

The Apocalypse of St.John the Apostle.22:15
“Outside are the dogs, and the socerers, and the fornicators, and the murders, and the idolaters and everyone who loves and practices falshood”

 

[ParkerD]

You have 100 % assurance by the Holy Spirit.
Pentecostals have 100 % assurance by the Holy Spirit yet they disagree with you.
Adventists have 100 % assurance by the Holy Spirit yet they disagree with you.
Jehovah’s Witnesses have 100 % assurance by the Holy Spirit yet they disagree with you.
Either the Holy Spirit is a spirit of confusion, or the spirit that gave you the 100 % assurance is a deceptive spirit.
Take your pick.

placido

Placido,
Yes, indeed. They all do that, as does the Catholic Church. Of course they all do–it is a Biblical doctrine which anyone can read about. There are several consistent and discernible ways to identify whether a particular belief or behavior lines up with Biblical teachings about the Holy Spirit and its fruits. I have never perceived a problem discerning whether someone truly is following that true voice of the Spirit, or a deceptive spirit. It is plainly manifest in their actions, attitudes, and teachings. It’s just not a big deal to figure out the difference.

Thanks again, Placido.

 

[ParkerD]

The CCC is based on scripture.
Book of Mormom declares itself beside scripture…

The Apocalypse of St.John the Apostle.22:15
“Outside are the dogs, and the sorcerers, and the fornicators, and the murderers, and the idolaters and everyone who loves and practices falshood”

FBL9,
After the idolaters (those who worship idols or graven images) come “whosoever loveth and maketh a lie.” That is the translation that I think makes more sense in that verse (the KJV).

I used verse 17 of that chapter in my talk this past Sunday. I love the words, “And whosoever will, let him take the water of life freely.” It refers back to verse 1.

That reminds me of Isaiah 55:1
“Ho, every one that thirsteth, come ye to the waters, and he that hath no money; come ye, buy, and eat; yea, come, buy wine and milk without money and without price.”

Without money. That ought to be a clue to somebody.

 

[placido]

Placido,
Yes, indeed. They all do that, as does the Catholic Church. Of course they all do–it is a Biblical doctrine which anyone can read about. There are several consistent and discernible ways to identify whether a particular belief or behavior lines up with Biblical teachings about the Holy Spirit and its fruits. I have never perceived a problem discerning whether someone truly is following that true voice of the Spirit, or a deceptive spirit. It is plainly manifest in their actions, attitudes, and teachings. It’s just not a big deal to figure out the difference.

Likewise, Pentecostals, JWs, SDAs and others who disagree with you, have never perceived a problem discerning whether someone truly is following that true voice of the Spirit, or a deceptive spirit … and they all came to the conclusion that the LDS is led by a deceptive spirit. What now?

placido

 

[placido]

FBL9,
After the idolaters (those who worship idols or graven images) come “whosoever loveth and maketh a lie.” That is the translation that I think makes more sense in that verse (the KJV).

I used verse 17 of that chapter in my talk this past Sunday. I love the words, “And whosoever will, let him take the water of life freely.” It refers back to verse 1.

That reminds me of Isaiah 55:1
“Ho, every one that thirsteth, come ye to the waters, and he that hath no money; come ye, buy, and eat; yea, come, buy wine and milk without money and without price.”

Without money. That ought to be a clue to somebody.

I was reading a document written by a former Mormon, who said this: “Two facts expose this money-making scheme: (1) The LDS church is one of the wealthiest religions in America while, (2) Mormon-dominated Utah is consistently first in personal bankruptcies. The Church gets rich–as members get poor. These two undisputed facts display the final outcome (fruits) of Mormonism and, according to Matthew, such fruits reveal False Prophets.”
I am not American. So, I don’t know whether that is true or not. I just brought it up because of your last sentence.

placido

 

[ParkerD]

Likewise, Pentecostals, JWs, SDAs and others who disagree with you, have never perceived a problem discerning whether someone truly is following that true voice of the Spirit, or a deceptive spirit … and they all came to the conclusion that the LDS is led by a deceptive spirit. What now?

placido

Placido,
The Bible is clear enough about all that. Among followers of the Holy Spirit, there will be fruits. There will be peace and peacemaking. There will be charity. There will be true faith, not sign-seeking.

There will be no ostentation. There will be no “signs for the sake of signs.” There will be no condemnation by true believers of non-believers. There will be happy families within the families of those following the Holy Spirit, with children who love their parents and do not feel fearful of them or fearful of their church’s doctrine.

And always those who are NOT following the Holy Spirit will say that the true church is “led by a deceptive spirit.” That is completely predictable behavior. One can count on it.