If the church was in hiding ...

[ParkerD]

I was reading a document written by a former Mormon, who said this: “Two facts expose this money-making scheme: (1) The LDS church is one of the wealthiest religions in America while, (2) Mormon-dominated Utah is consistently first in personal bankruptcies. The Church gets rich–as members get poor. These two undisputed facts display the final outcome (fruits) of Mormonism and, according to Matthew, such fruits reveal False Prophets.”
I am not American. So, I don’t know whether that is true or not. I just brought it up because of your last sentence.

placido

Placido,
Utah is only about 60% LDS, of which about 60% are active, so no “Utah” statistic is reflective of active LDS. The people I have heard or read about who have had financial problems have been those who (1) have not been obeying the law of tithing (2) have been financially frivolous rather than conservative as the LDS leaders consistently teach, or (3) have tried get rich quick schemes without acknowledging the principle that hard work and living on less than one earns are absolutely fundamental for any family. The LDS are taught this from childhood on up to adulthood, if they listen and pay attention. Every family that lives by these principles is blessed temporally, and certainly will never have to need to file bankruptcy. But if you are saying some LDS are in debt, then that is true.

Probably, many LDS youth need to learn better saving practices. That is a product of the media and advertising as much as of anything else. (I’m very grateful that my own children know how to conserve resources and are already putting money away in the bank for long-term needs–hundreds or thousands of dollars saved by each of them. Each of them has wanted to do this, on their own .)

 

[placido]

Placido,
The Bible is clear enough about all that.

If the Bible is clear enough, then it must be clear enough to Pentecostals, SDAs, JWs, Lutherans, Catholics, Baptists, etc, who all disagree with you.

Among followers of the Holy Spirit, there will be fruits. There will be peace and peacemaking. There will be charity. There will be true faith, not sign-seeking.

Using your criteria, you will have to believe that Pope John Paul II and Mother Theresa were both “followers of the Holy Spirit” because they were peacemakers, charity workers and were not sign-seekers … yet they disagreed with you on doctrine. How is that possible for the Holy Spirit to inspire contradictory doctrines?

There will be no ostentation. There will be no “signs for the sake of signs.” There will be no condemnation by true believers of non-believers. There will be happy families within the families of those following the Holy Spirit, with children who love their parents and do not feel fearful of them or fearful of their church’s doctrine.

Can a hungry family be a happy family? Mormons are told emphatically: “if a destitute family is faced with the decision of paying their tithing or eating, they should rather pay their tithing.”
Brother, those are the “fruits” of an unholy spirit.

placido

 

[placido]

And always those who are NOT following the Holy Spirit will say that the true church is “led by a deceptive spirit.” That is completely predictable behavior. One can count on it.

But you know as well as I do that that same claim is made by those that disagree with you on doctrine. The Pentecostals, the Lutherans, the JWs, the SDAs etc all believe the LDS is “led by a deceptive spirit”. In turn you believe they are “led by a deceptive spirit”. What now? That is the question you will never be able to answer satisfactorily.

placido

 

[placido]

There are several consistent and discernible ways to identify whether a particular belief or behavior lines up with Biblical teachings about the Holy Spirit and its fruits. I have never perceived a problem discerning whether someone truly is following that true voice of the Spirit, or a deceptive spirit. It is plainly manifest in their actions, attitudes, and teachings. It’s just not a big deal to figure out the difference.

The only problem with your argument is that, while you can easily discern who is and who is not following the Holy Spirit, there are others too who are so sure that you are NOT following the true voice of the Spirit. What now?

placido

 

[placido]

Placido,
Utah is only about 60% LDS, of which about 60% are active, so no “Utah” statistic is reflective of active LDS. The people I have heard or read about who have had financial problems have been those who (1) have not been obeying the law of tithing (2) have been financially frivolous rather than conservative as the LDS leaders consistently teach, or (3) have tried get rich quick schemes without acknowledging the principle that hard work and living on less than one earns are absolutely fundamental for any family. The LDS are taught this from childhood on up to adulthood, if they listen and pay attention. Every family that lives by these principles is blessed temporally, and certainly will never have to need to file bankruptcy. But if you are saying some LDS are in debt, then that is true.

Probably, many LDS youth need to learn better saving practices. That is a product of the media and advertising as much as of anything else. (I’m very grateful that my own children know how to conserve resources and are already putting money away in the bank for long-term needs–hundreds or thousands of dollars saved by each of them. Each of them has wanted to do this, on their own .)

Like I said, I am not American and don’t know whether that is true or not. I just brought it up because of what you implied in the post I was responding to.
The information I am getting seem to suggest that money and salvation go together in the LDS church: if you don’t give money so that the President can live in a $1,2 million mansion in Salt Lake City, then you are damned.

placido

 

[ParkerD]

1. If the Bible is clear enough, then it must be clear enough to Pentecostals, SDAs, JWs, Lutherans, Catholics, Baptists, etc, who all disagree with you.

Using your criteria, you will have to believe that Pope John Paul II and Mother Theresa were both “followers of the Holy Spirit” because they were peacemakers, charity workers and were not sign-seekers … yet they disagreed with you on doctrine. How is that possible for the Holy Spirit to inspire contradictory doctrines?

1. Can a hungry family be a happy family? Mormons are told emphatically: “if a destitute family is faced with the decision of paying their tithing or eating, they should rather pay their tithing.”
   Brother, those are the “fruits” of an unholy spirit.

placido

Placido,
Thanks for asking for clarification by this post.

1. I do think that Pope John Paul II and Mother Theresa were “followers of the Holy Spirit” as they did those things you noted. The Holy Spirit answers when a sincere question is asked about a specific doctrine, but if the question and the prayer aren’t asked or if the prayer isn’t sincere or if the person has already made up their mind, then there will be no answer given. That does not mean the person has “lost” the Spirit. It just means they have chosen to “go it on their own” on that particular question or doctrine.

That same result will happen for anyone, in any of the other denominations you wrote about, or for LDS also if they choose to “go it on their own.” The Holy Spirit doesn’t do the choosing of who asks the sincere questions–the people do in their own mind and heart.

1. If an LDS bishop is asked by a poor family if they should pay their tithing, then it is an act of faith in the promises listed in Malachi 3:10 for the bishop to respond that the family will be blessed by paying their tithing. But they are not made to feel guilty if they don’t. And guess what? If the bread-winner has been earnestly seeking a job and is willing to give service of some kind in the community, then that family is looked after by the bishop and a “Relief Society” president allocating the necessary food from a “bishop’s storehouse” where food is stored plentifully for just such situations, and even families who are not tithe-payers are helped from that storehouse. If there are other dire financial issues and if the extended family is not financially able to help, then those needs may be looked after as the bishop reviews the situation and prayerfully considers the needs.

The LDS church sends humanitarian resources, including food and water and blankets and medical supplies, all over the world when disasters strike. The receivers, from any faith tradition as they may be (it is not asked), are very grateful for the help, of course.

But LDS families are also encouraged to be prepared and to be “self-reliant” through their preparation, saving, living non-extravagantly, and to “open the windows of heaven” by living the principle of tithing. There are countless thousands of experiences people have had (including myself) with being blessed by having lived the law of tithing.

 

[ParkerD]

But you know as well as I do that that same claim is made by those that disagree with you on doctrine. The Pentecostals, the Lutherans, the JWs, the SDAs etc all believe the LDS is “led by a deceptive spirit”. In turn you believe they are “led by a deceptive spirit”. What now? That is the question you will never be able to answer satisfactorily.

placido

Placido,
As I had typed earlier, the evidence is plain enough in the lives being lived. One only has to look at the details–what goes on inside the homes and inside the hearts and in the daily interactions with others. A non-LDS person may be following the Holy Spirit in some things, but may be “going it on their own” on particular issues such as when they decide what church to attend. The Holy Spirit does not force, ever. No question asked in prayer, then no answer given. Nada.

 

[ParkerD]

The only problem with your argument is that, while you can easily discern who is and who is not following the Holy Spirit, there are others too who are so sure that you are NOT following the true voice of the Spirit. What now?

placido

Placido,
If they have prejudged without knowledge of the details or without reading the Bible without preconceived beliefs about what they are reading (which would mean the Spirit will not interfere to change those preconceptions if they already have them), then they can be “so sure” and just happen to be “so wrong.” Again, the Holy Spirit does not force. And if a person is judgmental of others, even angels don’t set themselves up as judges so one may clearly discern that a judgmental person is not following the Holy Spirit.

 

[ParkerD]

Like I said, I am not American and don’t know whether that is true or not. I just brought it up because of what you implied in the post I was responding to.
The information I am getting seem to suggest that money and salvation go together in the LDS church: if you don’t give money so that the President can live in a $1,2 million mansion in Salt Lake City, then you are damned.

placido

Placido,
You really should look up Malachi 3:10-12.

LDS are not told what you said, though of course someone will say that on the internet.

They are told they are missing out on blessings that are promised, but that does not mean damnation, either in this world or the next. It does mean they can’t enter the House of the Lord (the Holy Temple). They can certainly attend church. If not temple worthy, then one is not really aiming toward the celestial kingdom because their actions don’t show that they are.

President Monson doesn’t live in a million dollar mansion. That can be fairly easily found out. If you insist and if I let the secretary know that you are sincerely curious and have been misinformed and of where you live in the world, I could call his secretary or LDS public affairs and could probably find out the approximate value of his home or condominium, or be told of a news source where that information has already been stated. You do realize that he spends a significant amount of time away from home, and has done for years along with the apostles as they bring the gospel to all the world and help strengthen the members and dedicate temples. (I have a friend who has been to his home–I could ask him, if you really want to know.)

 

[placido]

Placido,
Thanks for asking for clarification by this post.

1. I do think that Pope John Paul II and Mother Theresa were “followers of the Holy Spirit” as they did those things you noted.

So, you believe they had at least “limited access” to the blessings of the Holy Spirit, the only problem being that they failed to be Mormons?

The Holy Spirit answers when a sincere question is asked about a specific doctrine, but if the question and the prayer aren’t asked or if the prayer isn’t sincere or if the person has already made up their mind, then there will be no answer given. That does not mean the person has “lost” the Spirit. It just means they have chosen to “go it on their own” on that particular question or doctrine.

That same result will happen for anyone, in any of the other denominations you wrote about, or for LDS also if they choose to “go it on their own.” The Holy Spirit doesn’t do the choosing of who asks the sincere questions–the people do in their own mind and heart.

I don’t think you understand what I am saying. I am trying to point out the subjectivity of those who, like you, boast of having the Holy Spirit apart from Christ’s Church. For example, we have Parker who boasts of “following the Holy Spirit” and we have many others who boast of “following the Holy Spirit”, yet that same Holy Spirit apparently reveals different doctrines to each side. How is that possible?
Claiming that you are right because you “prayed sincerely” doesn’t help much because others claim the same. You don’t believe what they say and they don’t believe what you say.

1. If an LDS bishop is asked by a poor family if they should pay their tithing, then it is an act of faith in the promises listed in Malachi 3:10 for the bishop to respond that the family will be blessed by paying their tithing. But they are not made to feel guilty if they don’t. And guess what? If the bread-winner has been earnestly seeking a job and is willing to give service of some kind in the community, then that family is looked after by the bishop and a “Relief Society” president allocating the necessary food from a “bishop’s storehouse” where food is stored plentifully for just such situations, and even families who are not tithe-payers are helped from that storehouse.

“Helped”, but only “if the bread-winner has been earnestly seeking a job and is willing to give service of some kind in the community, then (and only the) is that family looked after by the bishop. Hahahaha, is that what you call “charity”?

If there are other dire financial issues and if the extended family is not financially able to help, then those needs may be looked after as the bishop reviews the situation and prayerfully considers the needs.

Needs are considered, but only “If the bread-winner has been earnestly seeking a job and is willing to give service of some kind in the community, then (and only then) is that family looked after by the bishop.

The LDS church sends humanitarian resources, including food and water and blankets and medical supplies, all over the world when disasters strike. The receivers, from any faith tradition as they may be (it is not asked), are very grateful for the help, of course.

But LDS families are also encouraged to be prepared and to be “self-reliant” through their preparation, saving, living non-extravagantly, and to “open the windows of heaven” by living the principle of tithing.

“No tithing, no blessings”, “the more the tithing, the more the blessings” – that is a very funny “principle” of yours.

There are countless thousands of experiences people have had (including myself) with being blessed by having lived the law of tithing.

In principle, that is tantamount to bribery: one has to bribe God for Him to bless you.

placido

 

[placido]

Placido,
As I had typed earlier, the evidence is plain enough in the lives being lived. One only has to look at the details–what goes on inside the homes and inside the hearts and in the daily interactions with others. A non-LDS person may be following the Holy Spirit in some things, but may be “going it on their own” on particular issues such as when they decide what church to attend. The Holy Spirit does not force, ever. No question asked in prayer, then no answer given. Nada.

I do understand what you mean. The problem is only that you make claims that are made by others who disagree doctrinally with you, yet they also claim to be led by the Holy Spirit 100 %. They would say “evidence is plain enough” that you are led by an unholy spirit and accuse you of “going it on your own”.
If you retort saying “but I know I have the Holy Spirit”, they will retort saying “you are lying”.
Solution? NADA!

placido

 

[placido]

Placido,
If they have prejudged without knowledge of the details or without reading the Bible without preconceived beliefs about what they are reading (which would mean the Spirit will not interfere to change those preconceptions if they already have them), then they can be “so sure” and just happen to be “so wrong.”

And that is exactly what they would say about you. Now, knowing that trading accusations won’t help much, what solution do you propose?

Again, the Holy Spirit does not force. And if a person is judgmental of others, even angels don’t set themselves up as judges so one may clearly discern that a judgmental person is not following the Holy Spirit.

I can’t believe you have just said that. Not so long ago you have expressed your judgment that “a non-LDS person may be following the Holy Spirit in some things” only. Meaning, only LDS do follow the Holy Spirit fully. You are judgmental brother, and according to your own criteria, that very fact shows you don’t follow the Holy Spirit.

placido

 

[placido]

Placido,
You really should look up Malachi 3:10-12.
LDS are not told what you said, though of course someone will say that on the internet.

No, not on the internet but in a LDS General Conference: “if a destitute family is faced with the decision of paying their tithing or eating, they should pay their tithing.” (Lynn Robbins, General Conference, April 2005).

They are told they are missing out on blessings that are promised, but that does not mean damnation, either in this world or the next. It does mean they can’t enter the House of the Lord (the Holy Temple). They can certainly attend church. If not temple worthy, then one is not really aiming toward the celestial kingdom because their actions don’t show that they are.

One can only show his heaven-worthiness by giving money, money, and more money – LDS style.

President Monson doesn’t live in a million dollar mansion. That can be fairly easily found out. If you insist and if I let the secretary know that you are sincerely curious and have been misinformed and of where you live in the world, I could call his secretary or LDS public affairs and could probably find out the approximate value of his home or condominium, or be told of a news source where that information has already been stated. You do realize that he spends a significant amount of time away from home, and has done for years along with the apostles as they bring the gospel to all the world and help strengthen the members and dedicate temples. (I have a friend who has been to his home–I could ask him, if you really want to know.)

According to Salt Lake City tax records, late President Gordon Bitner Hinckley (June 23, 1910 – January 27, 2008) lived in a $1,200,000-plus mansion while the 12 apostles receive huge stipends and live quite well at tithe-payers expenses”.

placido

 

[ParkerD]

So, you believe they had at least “limited access” to the blessings of the Holy Spirit, the only problem being that they failed to be Mormons?

I don’t think you understand what I am saying. I am trying to point out the subjectivity of those who, like you, boast of having the Holy Spirit apart from Christ’s Church. For example, we have Parker who boasts of “following the Holy Spirit” and we have many others who boast of “following the Holy Spirit”, yet that same Holy Spirit apparently reveals different doctrines to each side. How is that possible?
Claiming that you are right because you “prayed sincerely” doesn’t help much because others claim the same. You don’t believe what they say and they don’t believe what you say.

“Helped”, but only “if the bread-winner has been earnestly seeking a job and is willing to give service of some kind in the community, then (and only the) is that family looked after by the bishop. Hahahaha, is that what you call “charity”?

Needs are considered, but only “If the bread-winner has been earnestly seeking a job and is willing to give service of some kind in the community, then (and only then) is that family looked after by the bishop.

“No tithing, no blessings”, “the more the tithing, the more the blessings” – that is a very funny “principle” of yours.

In principle, that is tantamount to bribery: one has to bribe God for Him to bless you.

placido

Placido,

Malachi was a prophet, but evidently you don’t think so.

I had thought you were being sincere. Now that you’re basically saying, “anyone who doesn’t agree with me is being judgmental” then you can make accusations and ask questions until you’re blue in the face, or whatever. Sorry–you lost my trust. Bye.

 

[Bill_Pick]

He quoted a CAF article, and I presented the entire quote. The quote is important because it’s foolish for a Catholic to pray to know whether the Book of Mormon is scripture, because we already know that it isn’t, just like how we don’t need to pray to God to know whether it’s okay to commit adultery.

AMEN

 

[fbl9]

Just a quick question for you ParkerD…How do you know if your personal revelations are from the true spirit?Do check in the bible? No reference here to translated beings. Do you check your church teachings? If so then you are being boxed in by your church.iow only believe what we tell you.

 

[rinnie]

[SIGN][/SIGN]

Rinnie,
Thanks for your prayers. I was talking about what Paul was talking about in 1 Corinthians 2 and 3. You can look it up and read it. Verse 12 talks about the “things that are freely given to us of God.” Verse 13, “which the Holy Ghost teacheth”. Verse 14, “they are spiritually discerned.” (To the natural man, they are foolishness.)

I might as well let you know that the Pope or all those earlier popes and theologians who came up with the CCC and all the other writings, mean absolutely nothing to me. I get more from reading five verses of scripture than a hundred paragraphs of any of those writings. Besides which, the Holy Spirit teaches and I am a willing listener. That is what Paul was saying was available to every person who makes the covenant of the gospel. [SIGN]The Pope may think he understands the Bible well, but some knowledge is hidden. The Holy Spirit offers the hidden knowledge that Paul talked about, but until a person (even the Pope) asks sincere and honest questions about what was plain[/SIGN]ly written but had a specific meaning, he just won’t get it. No one can confer spiritual discernment onto someone else. Each person has to “get it” for themselves. That is what spiritual discernment is all about.

Do have a wonderful night and a splendid day tomorrow. I need to spend time learning the words of several choir hymns to sing with a community choir in the upcoming General Conference of the LDS church where apostles and prophets speak the modern word of God. It will be enjoyable, but I had better get learning the words and learning the tenor parts. My wife is in it, too.

Parker Parker Parker, what is a person to do. Think what you are saying. In Corth 2:1-10 Thats all Paul talks about. That the wisdom and plan of God is revealed for the Pattern of Gods Secret hidden to others, but NOW IS REVEALED TO THE CHURCH.

Now Parker think Paul was a great scholar in Jewish faith, he admitted he didn’t see it either, Now his eyes are opened. Think Parker what happend when Paul was blind, God sent a Disciple to him to LAY HANDS ON PAUl, then his eyes were opened more ways then one. Lay of hands (like Holy Orders Parker) You can’t miss that.

But back to that scripture Pauls tells them point blank God reveals his plan to the Church. No more secrets Parker. Its all there. You have to admit that Church was the Catholic Church. Thats why it has all of the truth. The fullness of the truth. Please don’t tell me that you do not agree that Paul was part of the Catholic Church Parker. That is why all truth has to come from there. Paul just told you. If the CC does not accept it as truth its not the truth.

And if you believe the the scriptures are indeed the word of God then you must trust what Paul said. The Catholic Church has the truth revealed to it from God. The Holy Spirit is just another part of the Trinity in action Parker.

The bible tells you we do not have that Power of the Holy Spirit to define scripture. GO TO THE CHURCH it has the truth. If I am lying Parker why when it comes to sacraments etc the Catholic church is the same everywhere. It has to be Parker to be ONE HOLY CATHOLIC APOSTOLIC. He can not be many. Only One. And there is only one teaching in the CC. No other church can say that. It is another point why it has to be the true Church.

 

[rinnie]

Again Parker saying that about the Pope is just like saying that about Paul. They have the same truth and the same HS leading them to it. I can’t see my friend how this is not something easy for you to see. I can’t for the life of me seeing you missing it?

Go back Parker and read and read until you can see that scripture HAD to fit perfectly into scripture. If it contracdicts you aren’t getting it.

Re-read what Paul said you will not understand it Parker only those who are chosen will. And they will receive the HS. THere is only one HS just like One God and One truth. It is all in the Church the way Paul promised.

 

[wisdomseeker]

Wisdom Seeker,
Thanks for the peaceful words. What I have meant is that God confers authority to those whom He trusts. If the trust is lost, then who did the “losing”? Not God–but men. When the bishops didn’t seek out the leadership of John and sustain his leadership, then they lost God’s trust. God had appointed the pattern of leadership, and it was with the apostles as the leading quorum of the church. When a bishop ever wrote that they had the keys from Peter, I would know immediately that such a bishop had lost the trust of God because apostleship keys were not passed on to bishops, and apostleship keys were necessary to keep the doctrines and the ordinances pure. The impurities happened after the authority was lost–at the same time the trust was lost. I’ve already listed some of the impurities. There are many. They are quite evident, just by comparing the Bible with the current beliefs and practices. Those are why the trust was lost, along with the authority.

where is that in the Bible? those whom He trusts.

Parker, do you believe in the Trinity doctrine?

do you believe that the CC is the One that compiled the Bible?

do you believe that the Mother of God was assumed into Heaven?

do you believe that Holy Mother of God appeared in various places throughout the world?

waiting your answers.

 

[ParkerD]

Just a quick question for you ParkerD…How do you know if your personal revelations are from the true spirit?Do check in the bible? No reference here to translated beings. Do you check your church teachings? If so then you are being boxed in by your church.iow only believe what we tell you.

FBL9,
I am very familiar with the Bible, and yes the Bible does agree with personal revelation, always. I am familiar with my church teachings, and they agree also. Often personal revelation is about “how can I best serve at this moment in time?” God can answer that question, if there is a “best thing to do” at that moment.

I have never felt boxed in by church teachings or by the Bible. I want what God wants for me. I am completely comfortable with His will in my life.