I believe it contains the fullness which is as of yet not completely understood in the complete revelation of Jesus and that the Holy Spirit goes where He wills and yet there are also many aspects of that fullness found outside of the Church indirectly in union with her. We are called to find and recognize this good in the world as we are called to be in the world and do our best to be not of the world.
You cannot change truth in order to evangelize. I think that is called compromise.
We have the Holy Tradition of the Church. No more, no less.
You ought to know that the official name of the Orthodox Church is the “Orthodox Catholic Church.”Or is its motto “One Holy CATHOLIC and Apostolic Church.” Don’t see the innovative words of EO in there anywhere.
Sorry, but your Church’s innovations began and only furthers the division between our Churches. Even 50 years ago, we were close in that we sought to hold zealously to many minor traditions of our Churches. Now your Church could care less. Innovation = division.
You should know Christ came to establish a Church that would shield the faithful from innovation. For what else were the great arch-heretics condemned if not for trying to “update” the Holy Faith according to their own ideas?
One Faith means one belief system. To deny this is to be a heretic and modernist, even by your own Church’s standard.
In short, who knows what kind of doctrine the Church may later understand? According to you the truth is constantly being understood in new and creative ways. My friend, this is theological modernism or its brother. It’s not any concept of Holy Tradition I’ve ever learned in traditional Catholicism, Orthodoxy or my readings in the early Church. According to your belief, the heretics of the past were not condemned for not holding to the Faith, but would have been condemned because the Holy Spirit didn’t happen to support their new understanding, even while he might support someone else’s innovation. That’s absurd.
Why does every Catholic ask this question around here? If this supposed to be like the super stumper or something? It goes like this
Yeah, fat lot of good it has done you guys. Hundreds of groups using tradition and scripture and their bishops do not agree either. You just have the biggest one. And one thing I know from God’s word…big…it aint so good…
Exactly why the Dogma of the Church are irreversible. The bigotry of Pharasees however is not truth. Never was and never will be. Jesus was inclusive and so should we be.
The Church from which you proceed is not in and of itself an ends to all means. Look at the protestants from Lutheranism on down, would you say they hold no aspect of the truth which proceeds from Jesus into the world through His Church, the same for all?
I didn’t take the word Catholic from it. It was dropped voluntarily.
We see it as the Holy Spirit leading us in the direction He wills. There were no complaints of innovation during the first 1000 years when changes and fulfilled understandings came to light. Only after the departure from unity and stagnation of Holy Spirit in an obstinate hiding behind the apron of Grace did that begin.
Oh yea, ask a Pharasee if Jesus was an innovator? Seems He created a new Church didn’t He? One that He leads to where He wants. His intention is to draw all near to Him. Not stiffly set out the rules and wait for all to come to Him. He reaches out and He uses His church to do the same. See the example of sending out the apostles to bring His message to all the ends of the Earth. He didn’t set up on a mountain top but came down to the people even humbling Himself unto the form of a slave.
I believe all the irreversible dogma of the Church. Why should this prevent me from being open to the truth found outsider her constraints? I know you as well hold to some of those same dogma though incompletely by no fault of your own. The piont isn’t even who went wrong at the split but where the Church went. Its clear the Church went where it has and remains the true Church and through Christs promises will always remain the true Church regardless of the sins of the men within her.
Why is it bigotry to note that at one point in time, Prtoestants were not allowed to take Holy Communion in the RCC. Whereas now, under certain conditions, it has been allowed.
It all depends on how you frame the issue. According to what I understand from the Orthodox point of view, it is not a case of wanting division, it is a case of the stubborness on the part of Catholics to refuse to accept the teaching of the Church as it was before 1054. Were there clown Masses, Halloween Masses, women dressed in Satanic outfits giving out Holy Communion, altar girls, Peter, Paul and Mary type music, swaying to and fro and clapping hands at Mass, women at the altar with no headcovering leading Communion services, - were these things part of the liturgy of the Church as it was before 1054?If you want division, you **shouldn’t be **Christian at all.
I have only responded to questions. I have already said that I am only interested in what unites to the extent we are following biblicial truth. I do want everyone to follow the Bible and be united but it does not seem likely at all.You know the intend on this thread was to bring dialogue not division. Instead, I see a Protestant preaching Sola Scriptura to a Catholic. An Orthodox preaching Tradition to a Catholic Don’t you all at least appreciate Our Bishops are looking at what units us, not Divide us.
If you want division, you **shouldn’t be **Christian at all.
Obviously, I was not there before 1054. Perhaps I have not succeeded in conveying to you my opinion that from the Orthodox point of view, it is not a matter of wanting division as one of the posters has implied. By framing the issue like that, you are belittling the importance that the other side sees in wanting to preserve their heritage.
Thank you. We are always happy to hear more from the Orthodox point of view. In the latest meeting in Ravenna, Italy, it looks like the Moscow Church representatives walked out for some reason, but the Catholic and Greek Orthodox stayed and worked on a joint statement:
Not to get too personal, but
There is also a dispute over Macedonia.