If the elect are saved, and if the rest are damned . .

[antimon]

tabcom, use this simple logic:
one will be either saved or damned, there is nothing between salvation and damnation. some are predestined to salvation, that means that the others are predestined for damnation, whether Bible says it explicitly or not.

and everyone is questioning you because you deny such fundamental things as human free will and God’s love.

 

[mikeledes]

The Council of Trent Condemned Calvinistic ideas of Predestination.

**CANON IV.-If any one saith, that man’s free will moved and excited by God, by assenting to God exciting and calling, nowise co-operates towards disposing and preparing itself for obtaining the grace of Justification; that it cannot refuse its consent, if it would, but that, as something inanimate, it does nothing whatever and is merely passive; let him be anathema. **

**CANON V.-If any one saith, that, since Adam’s sin, the free will of man is lost and extinguished; or, that it is a thing with only a name, yea a name without a reality, a figment, in fine, introduced into the Church by Satan; let him be anathema. **

CANON IX.-If any one saith, that by faith alone the impious is justified; in such wise as to mean, that nothing else is required to co-operate in order to the obtaining the grace of Justification, and that it is not in any way necessary, that he be prepared and disposed by the movement of his own will; let him be anathema.

**CANON XVII.-If any one saith, that the grace of Justification is only attained to by those who are predestined unto life; but that all others who are called, are called indeed, but receive not grace, as being, by the divine power, predestined unto evil; let him be anathema. **

God grants sufficient grace to all that enables all to accept His offer of salvation. Those among the reprobate who are enabled by God’s prevenient grace to accept His offer and do so will be genuinely justified. However, only to those predestined to life (i.e. the elect) will the grace of final perseverance be efficacious.

God Bless,
Michael

 

[heisenburg]

to be predestined means to be meant for something…

Simple answer.

That being said… someone can be predestined, and not get there.

Example. A child is predestined by his father to be a doctor. the father prepays med school, takes him to the hospital, etc. however, the child then becomes a druggy and cant… Was he any less predestined? no.

Second example: Anikin Skywalker was predestined to bring balance to the force, instead, he nearly destroyed it (movie analogy, but a valid example )

Predestined doesn’t mean it will automatically happen, it just means that is what you were meant for.

Example eph1:4-7ish… it talks about us being predestined to be holy, to honor him etc… Who is the us… It is NOT a single group of people, he is talking about all mankind. the us is humanity.

So, there you have it a simple definition… To be meant for something. but that doesn’t mean it is going to happen

From what I have read (and yes, I have read all the posts) you seem to believe the predestined means meant for and WILL happen. This is an extension of the word that was never meant, though easily confusable.

Now, you say yes to all my questions, could you please provide some evidence of each?

In Christ

 

[tabcom]

tabcom, use this simple logic:

**ok . . but when it comes to ‘simple logic’ regarding God, if a statement is scripturally inaccurated, it must be rejected.
**

one will be either saved or damned, there is nothing between salvation and damnation

ok.

some are predestined to salvation,

No. predestination is not the method of salvation. Repentence is.

that means that the others are predestined for damnation, whether Bible says it explicitly or not.

Predestined is associated with the believer NOT with the vessels of wrath.

you deny such fundamental things as human free will

**Im’ still waiting for a reply to post #46. reprinted here . . .

What I don’t understand, and I ask with complete humility is, ‘how can anyone believe in (a person’s ability to accept God) after reading John 1:13?’

Which were born, NOT of blood, NOR of the WILL of the flesh, NOR of the will of man, but of God.**

 

[antimon]

tabcom: read #48(just for context) and #63. and interesting that while you deny free will all along, you mention repentance. how can one repent without free will?

 

[tabcom]

you seem to believe the predestined means meant for and WILL happen.

I’m unclear as to what you mean by the underlined.

Now, you say yes to all my questions, could you please provide some evidence of each?

Yes, I will do so. After you help me undertand your definition of predestination more clearly. Are you saying predestinaiton is an end point. A goal. But not everyone will make it?

 

[tabcom]

Im’ still waiting for a reply to post #46. reprinted here . . .

What I don’t understand, and I ask with complete humility is, ‘how can anyone believe in (a person’s ability to accept God) after reading John 1:13?’

Which were born, NOT of blood, NOR of the WILL of the flesh, NOR of the will of man, but of God.

tabcom: read #48(just for context)

Please explain to me how John 1:12 is a free-will verse?

 

[antimon]

Please explain to me how John 1:12 is a free-will verse?

I talked about verse 12 as a context to verse 13 and you quote it as if it was my whole response. You are still overlooking post #63. Please, if you want a discussion, stop misquoting some parts of my response and overlooking other parts.

If you wish, you are the winner of our debate, I don’t have nerves for such “discussion”. God bless you.

 

[frnate]

It has a particular meaning.

What particular meaning does your version of predestination have?

Yes, there has been christians fo two millennia doing the Truth. They may not have articulate predestination the why I am doing so within this thread, but they didn’t have to.

This illustrates the central reason for my inquiry. If they didn’t have to, why is it imperative that we do so?

Predestination is about doing something. He that does the Truth, comes to the Light.

No clear thinking Christian will argue with you on this as it is stated here. However, what I have gathered by inference from your other posts is that it is possible that some who do not the truth may also end up coming to the light because they have no choice.

Do a word search on called, ordained, chosen, predestinated, foreknew, draw, to name a few. All convey the idea that God picks his servants to do something.

I don’t really need to do the word search because I agree that God picks his servants to do something.

Peace,
+N

 

[Church_Militant]

I talked about verse 12 as a context to verse 13 and you quote it as if it was my whole response. You are still overlooking post #63. Please, if you want a discussion, stop misquoting some parts of my response and overlooking other parts.

If you wish, you are the winner of our debate, I don’t have nerves for such “discussion”. God bless you.

12 But as many as received him, he gave them power to be made the sons of God, to them that believe in his name.

It’s pretty clear that this verse speaks of a volitional choice that is the first step in salvation. You won’t see it or admit it…but that’s on you.

 

[tabcom]

John 1:12 But as many as received him, he gave them power to be made the sons of God, to them that believe in his name.

It’s pretty clear that this verse speaks of a volitional choice that is the first step in salvation. You won’t see it or admit it…but that’s on you.

**Volitional? First Step? :whacky:

vo·li·tion
noun

1. The act or an instance of making a conscious choice or decision.
2. A conscious choice or decision.
3. The power or faculty of choosing; the will.

The word received in the orginal greek is lambano. It is a verb. It is not a noun – as in volition. Let me give you a demonstration of its usage. The sun shines and I received the light. My receiving the light is not a conscious choice, or by my will.
**

 

[tabcom]

What particular meaning does your version of predestination have?

**Predestinate is the Greek word Pro’orizo. Pro’orizo means to prebound or predetermine boundary lines in advance. Pro’orizo is a construction of the prefix pro (our prefix “pre”, meaning before) and the Greek word ‘Orizo – to bound or to mark out a boundary, to appoint, decree, specify, declare, determine, limit, ordain

The small mark ‘ before the word ‘Orizo is called a diacritical mark. It has an “h” sound. The word ‘orizo is written “Horizo” and pronounced, “Horidzo”( the “z” is pronounced “dz” in the Greek). This word looks similar to our word “Horizon”. That is because it is exactly our word horizon.

The horizon was a very familiar boundary line to Jewish mind. It was the division or the boundary of light (day) and darkness (night).

Jesus said, “Ye are the light of the world.” (Matt. 5:14). Light is equated with Truth throughout scripture.

Paul said, “Ye were sometimes darkness, but now are ye light in the Lord, walk as children of light. – have no fellowship with unfruitful works of darkness” (Eph. 5:8,11).

Again, Paul said, “Be ye not unequally yoked with unbelievers – what communion hath light with darkness?” (II Cor. 6:14).

Unbelievers are equated as living in darkness, therefore believers are equated with light – light is always equivalent to Truth.

We are commanded to walk in the light.
**

 

[tabcom]

Originally Posted by heisenburg View Post

1. Can you show me where predestination . . . was ever taught by Judaism. (by the way, I’m not talking about Bible verses since we will not agree on the meaning)

We both can argee that Paul was a Jew can’t we? If yes, from where else would he have learned the Doctrine of Predestination?

 

[mikeledes]

There seems to be a lot of confusion surrounding predestination. I think we need to establish certain facts:

1. No one is naturally entitled to salvation. If we were, then salvation would be something that is owed thus God would be obligated to pay us.
2. Predestination is a de fide teaching of the Catholic Church.

3)Complete Predestination (grace to glory) is not based on forseen merits. Thus all theologians (Thomist and Molinist) believe that predestination to glory is ultimately based on God’s gracious choice.

1. All of our merits are ultimately derived from grace and any reward is based on God’s gracious promise. Hence, when God rewards, He is crowning His own work.

5)While the Church asserts the freedom of the will, it also asserts that the will cannot chose God without prevenient grace. Salvation is God’s inititiave.

1. The Church also believes in the unequal distribution of grace. God gives the gift of final perseverance to whomever He pleases.

God Bless,
Michael

 

[Church_Militant]

**Volitional? First Step? :whacky:

vo·li·tion
noun

1. The act or an instance of making a conscious choice or decision.
2. A conscious choice or decision.
3. The power or faculty of choosing; the will.

The word received in the orginal greek is lambano. It is a verb. It is not a noun – as in volition. Let me give you a demonstration of its usage. The sun shines and I received the light. My receiving the light is not a conscious choice, or by my will.
**

Analogy fails…you still have the option to avoid the light. This is scriptural…

John 3:19: And this is the judgment, that the light has come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil.
20: For every one who does evil hates the light, and does not come to the light, lest his deeds should be exposed.
21: But he who does what is true comes to the light, that it may be clearly seen that his deeds have been wrought in God.

Receiving is always a verb…therefore, based upon the Word of God, one has the option to volitionally choose to come into the light. These gymnastics are not necessary if one holds a scriptural belief…which yours is not.

 

[tabcom]

Originally Posted by heisenburg View Post
2) Is there any pre-Calvin teaching on this version of predestination?

**The Catholic doctrine of predestination is described by the Council of Valence III AD 855, on predestination…

Quote:
… faithfully we confess the predestination of the elect to life, and the predestination of the impious to death; in the election, moreover, of those who are to be saved, the mercy of God precedes the merited good. In the condemnation, however, of those who are to be lost, the evil which they have deserved precedes the just judgment of God. In predestination, however, (we believe) that God has determined only those things which He Himself either in His gratuitous mercy or in His just judgment would do… in regard to evil men, however, we believe that God foreknew their malice, because it is from them, but that He did not predestine it, because it is not from Him. (We believe) that God, who sees all things, foreknew and predestined that their evil deserved the punishment which followed, because He is just, in whom as Saint Augustine says, there is concerning all things everywhere so fixed a decree as a certain predestination. "

I broke it down in outline form to make it easier to translate.

Of those predestinated by election:

1. God has determined only those things which He Himself either in His gratuitous mercy or in His just judgment would do.
2. The mercy of God precedes the merited good.

In the condemnation, of those who are to be lost,

1. the evil which they have deserved precedes the just judgment of God.
2. God foreknew their malice, because it is from them, but that He did not predestine it, because it is not from Him.
3. God, who sees all things, foreknew and predestined that their evil deserved the punishment.

:bowdown:
**

 

[tabcom]

Receiving is always a verb

Ok… we agree on something.

…therefore, . . .one has the option to volitionally choose to come into the light.

**If I’m standing outside in mid-afternoon and the sun comes out from behind a cloud, what choice do I have to receive the light?

Church Militant . . .your opinion of what John is writing about fails because it contridicts other passages that he himself wrote.

1 John 1:5-7 This then is the message which we have heard of him, and declare unto you, that God is light, and in him is no darkness at all. If we say that we have fellowship with him, and walk in darkness, we lie, and do not the truth: But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin.

We are commanded to do the Truth (the light is Truth).

John 3:21 But he that doeth truth cometh to the light, that his deeds may be made manifest, that they are wrought in God.

We have been predetermined for the boundary of truth, or light. God has pre-truthed his family to walk righteously and conform to Christ’s image (eikon – representation). God has pre-horizoned his family before the foundation of the world. God has conceived and birthed his family by his own will.

John 1:13 Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.

John 5:21 For as the Father raiseth up the dead, and quickeneth ( Zoopoieo – make alive) them; even so the Son quickeneth whom he will.

Quickened means to make alive – God begats us as his children and makes us alive in his family. After we come alive (by the will of God), he requires obedience to the light (Truth) inside the boundary (‘orizo) of light. Truth is something we “do”. It is not mere mental assent (John 3:21). Righteousness is what a man does – not merely a moral state or disposition.

1 John 3:7,10 Little children, let no man deceive you: he that “doeth” righteousness is righteous, even as he is righteous. In this the children of God are manifest, and the children of the devil: whosoever “doeth not” righteousness is not of God –

John 6:37,39 All that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out. And this is the Father’s will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day.

God does the willing or choosing, the believer does the truth, which is coming to the light.**

 

[Philthy]

**…If man has free-will to accept God, then man’s free-will trumps God’s Will. **

Not if the existence of Man’s free will is contigent upon it being God’s Will that Man have free will.

Your presentation of predestination and free will should preclude you from participating in any discussions. There simply is no point. But you do participate and actions speak louder than words…

 

[Philthy]

**2 Peter 1st Chapter comes to mind. **

It is going to take the rest of my life to check off this ‘to do’ list:

1. virtue
2. knowledge
3. self-control
4. endurance
5. devotion
6. mutual affection
7. love

2 Pe 1:10 Therefore, brethren, be all the more diligent to make certain about His calling and choosing you; for as long as you practice these things, you will never stumble; 11 for in this way the entrance into the eternal kingdom of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ will be abundantly supplied to you.

nccbuscc.org/nab/bible/2peter/2peter1.htm

This doesnt affirm your presentation of predestination, it conflicts with it. Why should MY certainty of GOD’s calling matter at all? What does it alter? Who cares if I stumble on earth if my eternal election has been sealed? You havent made a progress with this evasive answer.
I’ll repeat the question differently:

Will any action I take or do not take here on earth alter my experience of Heaven after I die?

 

[heisenburg]

Tabcom…
You are reading into whats not there.
Again… predestined means meant for… it does not mean meant for and a guarantee of getting.

You are reading into the Catholic explanation your definition.

Look at the document you provided from a different view point, not Calvin eyes. (even if you don’t cal yourself Calvin, it is calvinesque)

There is a difference between elect, and predestination. You seem to combine. As mentioned Predestined means meant for something. Doesn’t mean you get it, just that it was meant for you.
Per the Bible, All men, women and children have been predestined from before creation for eternal life. ALL men, thats in the bible. Now, an Elect is someone that is someone that is in Christ (IE a believer) That being said, just like those that are cut from the vine after being grafted in, you can loose that election.

God said, if you follow him, you are in the light, and you may have eternal life.
In other words, if you follow him, you will be destined to eternal life.

A second way to look at it is saying god decided before hand that if you follow him, you will have eternal life.
This is very true…

It also says if you do not follow him you are meant for hell.

it does not say that no matter what, this person will go to heaven, and no matter what, this person will go to hell.

It does say that no matter what, those that follow him will go to heaven, and those that do not will go to hell. Subtle but HUGE difference.

On your point about Paul teaching this. This is your understanding of those verses Paul wrote, and therefore, do not qualify. My understanding of predestination (as has been defined) is different than yours. So, what I need from you is a Jewish document or teaching on Jewish things that dictates that Jews believe in Predestination. Again, though the bible is above, we are to disagree on what those verses mean, so you will need to look further.

Finanally, If predestination as you espouse is true, then I have a question for you to consider. There are countless places in the world that know nothing of Christ. Did God Predestine only those in the Western, Christian world? Are there no Predestined Souls in tribal regions of Africa? Australia? Asia? Arabia?..

We do you believe predestination as you espouse is true if there are plenty of regions world wide that know nothing of Christ?

May you be blessed in your journey

IN Christ