If the Qur'an is wrong, why be Muslim?

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Randy_Carson

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Here is [slightly reformatted by me]:


  1. *]The Qur’an claims that Jesus did not die on a cross. (Qur’an 4:157-158)
    *]The crucifixion of Jesus is accepted as an historical event among non-Muslim historians, including atheist historians.
    *]Therefore, the Qur’an contains error.
    *]To be a Muslim, you must believe that the Qur’an is without error.
    *]But the Qur’an contains error.
    *]Therefore, it does not make sense to be a Muslim.

    Thoughts?
 
Interesting. I wonder would they just assume that the historians are mistaken? After all, Creationists do the same thing with science (dinosaurs weren’t real, etc.).
 
Googled it, this was the first hit:

While most Western Scholars, Jews, and Christians believe Jesus died, most Muslims believe he was raised to Heaven without being put on the cross and God transformed another person to appear exactly like Jesus who was crucified instead of Jesus.
Islamic view of Jesus’ death - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Islamic_view_of_Jesus’_death
 
The Muslim Quantam Leap Scott Baccula Jesus who switched bodies with some pigeon at the last second thesis is not disprovable by appealing to the historical record.

Remember Quantam Leap? Loved that show.

Anyway, no way of disproving that Jesus pulled a wascally wabbit switcheroo, so, that argument is not gonna convince anybody.

And so, the Quran lives to fight another day.
 
They believe a man in the likeness of Jesus was crucified. If I remember correctly this comes from a Gnostic Gospel (Thomas, maybe?) which Mohammed may have been exposed to by way of his residence and profession. The Hejaz was rife with Gnostic Christian believers and ideas around the time Mohammed grew up and came into his own.
 
That is not really accurate as far as professional historical Jesus scholars of any kind of prestige go — well, as regards the idea that Jesus lived and got executed anyway.

The argument falls apart at #3. It does not follow that because most believe that he was crucified, that he was crucified, if as Muslims and the Gnostic Gospel of peter believe, he had Scott Baccula superpowers and was willing to use them and laugh at the dumb stooge who took the fall.

Okay, that very last clause is more Gnostics than Muslims, but I just love that image.
 
In fact, in a hypothetical world wherein the Quran makes the claims that it does, and we have LESS certainty that Jesus was crucified, the Quranic position is weaker, because the Quran claims that Jesus’ trick worked and most think that he WAS crucified.
 
Certain people can simply add “Bible” and another example:
  1. The Bible clearly states that God created the heavens and the earth (Genesis 1:1).
  2. There is no scientific evidence for God creating the heavens and the earth. Natural means are more plausible with God out of the equation.
  3. Therefore, the Hebrew Bible and variants contain error.
  4. To be a Jew, Christian, Rastafarian, or Samaritan, you must believe that the Bible is the inerrant revelation of God.
  5. But the Bible likely contains error.
  6. Therefore, it does not make sense to be a Jew, Christian, Rastafarian, or Samaritan because these religions are most likely false from the start.
 
claymcdermott said:
In fact, in a hypothetical world wherein the Quran makes the claims that it does, and we have LESS certainty that Jesus was crucified, the Quranic position is weaker, because the Quran claims that Jesus’ trick worked and most think that he WAS crucified.
Click to expand...
Nice observation! :cool:
 
ShrodingersCat said:
Googled it, this was the first hit:

While most Western Scholars, Jews, and Christians believe Jesus died, most Muslims believe he was raised to Heaven without being put on the cross and God transformed another person to appear exactly like Jesus who was crucified instead of Jesus.
Islamic view of Jesus’ death - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Islamic_view_of_Jesus’_death
Click to expand...
Right.

Jesus did not die on the cross according to Islam.

Instead, God deceived His followers into believing that an imposter was Jesus.

If true, think about what that would say about God’s character. :hmmm:
 
Randy_Carson said:
Here is [slightly reformatted by me]:


  1. *]The Qur’an claims that Jesus did not die on a cross. (Qur’an 4:157-158)
    *]The crucifixion of Jesus is accepted as an historical event among non-Muslim historians, including atheist historians.
    *]Therefore, the Qur’an contains error.
    *]To be a Muslim, you must believe that the Qur’an is without error.
    *]But the Qur’an contains error.
    *]Therefore, it does not make sense to be a Muslim.

    Thoughts?
Click to expand...

  1. Of course it would also be pretty easy to make a case for various errors in the Bible, too, to which one might ask, “Why be a Christian?”
 
DaddyGirl said:
Your argument falls apart at Number 2.
There are many historians–both theist and atheist-- who do not accept the details put forth about Jesus’ life and death as historical events.
They cannot be proven and are open to debate.

Therefore…we cannot say the Qur’an is in error (for that claim, anyway).

.
Click to expand...
Nope.

Jesus’ death by crucifixion is one of the Five Minimal Facts that scholars of all stripes accept. This has been documented by Dr. Gary Habermas.

Anything from antiquity can be debated by honest scholars, I suppose, but the crucifixion of Jesus is not one of them.

Jesus Mythicists are another story, of course, but even other agnostics and atheists laugh at them.
 
Randy_Carson said:
Jesus’ death by crucifixion is one of the Five Minimal Facts that scholars of all stripes accept. This has been documented by Dr. Gary Habermas.
Click to expand...
Muslims believe that it was made to seem that Jesus was crucified, i.e. that perhaps someone else was crucified in his place that everyone thought was Jesus. But no one can disprove the Muslim version, even historians (atheist or not), unless we can examine the body that was crucified.
 
Hatikvah said:
Certain people can simply add “Bible” and another example:
  1. The Bible clearly states that God created the heavens and the earth (Genesis 1:1).
  2. There is no scientific evidence for God creating the heavens and the earth. Natural means are more plausible with God out of the equation.
  3. Therefore, the Hebrew Bible and variants contain error.
  4. To be a Jew, Christian, Rastafarian, or Samaritan, you must believe that the Bible is the inerrant revelation of God.
  5. But the Bible likely contains error.
  6. Therefore, it does not make sense to be a Jew, Christian, Rastafarian, or Samaritan because these religions are most likely false from the start.
Click to expand...
Uh…no. Failure begins with the second premise. It is generally agreed today that the universe had a beginning (known as the “Big Bang”), and this has important implications. Consider the following:


  1. *]Whatever begins to exist has a cause.
    *]The universe began to exist.
    *]Therefore, the universe has a cause.

    Is the first premise true? Let’s consider…

    Believing that something can pop into existence without a cause is more of a stretch than believing in magic. At least with magic you’ve got a hat and a magician. And if something can come into being from nothing, then why don’t we see this happening all the time? No… Everyday experience and scientific evidence confirm our first premise—If something begins to exist, it must have a cause.

    But what about our second premise? Did the universe begin or has it always existed? Atheists have typically said that the universe has been here forever-“The universe is just there, and that’s all.”

    First, let’s consider the second law of thermodynamics. It tells us the universe is slowly running out of usable energy… and that’s the point. If the universe had been here forever, it would have run out of usable energy by now. The second law points us to a universe that has a definite beginning.

    This is further confirmed by a series of remarkable scientific discoveries…

    In 1915, Albert Einstein presented his General Theory of Relativity. This allowed us, for the first time, to talk meaningfully about the past history of the universe.

    Next, Alexander Friedmann and Georges Lemaître, each working with Einstein’s equations, predicted that the universe is expanding.

    Then, in 1929, Edwin Hubble measured the red shift in light from distant galaxies. This empirical evidence confirmed not only that the universe is expanding, but that it sprang into being from a single point in the finite past. It was a monumental discovery—almost beyond comprehension.

    However, not everyone is fond of a finite universe… So, it wasn’t long before alternative models popped into existence. But, one by one, these models failed to stand the test of time. More recently, three leading cosmologists—Arvind Borde, Alan Guth, and Alexander Vilenkin—proved that “any universe which has, on average, been expanding throughout its history cannot be eternal in the past, but must have an absolute beginning.” This even applies to the multiverse, if there is such a thing.

    This means that scientists “can no longer hide behind a past-eternal universe. There is no escape, they have to face the problem of a cosmic beginning.” Any adequate model must have a beginning, just like the standard model.

    It’s quite plausible, then that both premises of the argument are true. This means that the conclusion is also true—the universe has a cause. And since the universe can’t cause itself, its cause must be beyond the space-time universe. It must be spaceless, timeless, immaterial, uncaused, and unimaginably powerful.

    Much like…God.

    The Cosmological Argument shows that, in fact, it is quite reasonable to believe that God does exist.

    The Kalam Cosmological Argument
    By William Lane Craig
    reasonablefaith.org/transcript-kalam-cosmological-argument
 
Randy_Carson said:
Right.

Jesus did not die on the cross according to Islam.

Instead, God deceived His followers into believing that an imposter was Jesus.

If true, think about what that would say about God’s character. :hmmm:
Click to expand...
“deceived”!

God had became a man and God did not declare that clearly! Which is deception?
 
Thorolfr said:
Of course it would also be pretty easy to make a case for various errors in the Bible, too, to which one might ask, “Why be a Christian?”
Click to expand...
In which case, we must examine each alleged error to determine whether or not it is, in fact, an error, and if so, what is its relevance and importance to the faith as a whole.

Christians SHOULD do this, btw.

Are Muslims willing to do the same with the Qur’an?
 
Thorolfr said:
Muslims believe that it was made to seem that Jesus was crucified, i.e. that perhaps someone else was crucified in his place that everyone thought was Jesus. But no one can disprove the Muslim version, even historians (atheist or not), unless we can examine the body that was crucified.
Click to expand...
Fair enough. (Though we do have corroborating evidence from Josephus, Tacitus and others.)

But as I pointed out previously, this makes Allah a deceiver because He tricked Jesus’ closest family members, friends and followers into believing something that was not true.

Is this the type of God that is worthy of being praised? 🤷
 
Randy_Carson said:
In which case, we must examine each alleged error to determine whether or not it is, in fact, an error, and if so, what is its relevance and importance to the faith as a whole.

Christians SHOULD do this, btw.

Are Muslims willing to do the same with the Qur’an?
Click to expand...
I’m sure that some Muslims would be willing to do this and some wouldn’t just like some Christians don’t mind historical criticism of the Bible whereas some are opposed to it.
 
Randy_Carson said:
Here is [slightly reformatted by me]:


  1. *]The Qur’an claims that Jesus did not die on a cross. (Qur’an 4:157-158)
    *]The crucifixion of Jesus is accepted as an historical event among non-Muslim historians, including atheist historians.
    *]Therefore, the Qur’an contains error.
    *]To be a Muslim, you must believe that the Qur’an is without error.
    *]But the Qur’an contains error.
    *]Therefore, it does not make sense to be a Muslim.

    Thoughts?
Click to expand...

  1. Could you show a verse in which Jesus said that He got crucified and raised from death after crucifixion? As much I know Jesus did not claim such thing. A man was crucifixed and that is true but wast that Jesus?

    And do you know that Jesus prayed God to be saved from crucifixion? Yes Jesus was informed about judgement of death penalty about Him. Jesus went to Sajdah and prayed God to be saved and God accepted that pray and saved Jesus. Here:

    41 And he was withdrawn from them about a stone’s cast, and kneeled down, and prayed,

    42 Saying, Father, if thou be willing, remove this cup from me: nevertheless not my will, but thine, be done. Luke 22

    and kneeled down: Sajdah. Muslims do by same way to pray God. A believer is into closest position at Sajdah.
 
hasantas said:
“deceived”!

God had became a man and God did not declare that clearly! Which is deception?
Click to expand...
Jesus claimed to be God in many ways.

THE FIRST AND THE LAST

Surah 57:3 of the Qur’an refers to Allah as “the First and the Last, the Most High and the Most Near.” The Old Testament agrees that God is the “First and the Last,” as we read in the Book of the prophet Isaiah:

Isaiah 44:6
Thus says the LORD, the King of Israel and his Redeemer, the LORD of hosts: “I am the first and I am the last, and there is no God besides Me.”

When “LORD” is written in all capitals in the Old Testament, the term refers to Yahweh, the creator of the universe. Since both the Bible and the Qur’an give the title “the First and the Last” to God, it should be quite shocking for Muslims to open the New Testament and read Revelation 1:17-18, where Jesus says:

“Do not be afraid; I am the first and the last, and the living One; and I was dead, and behold, I am alive forevermore, and I have the keys of death and of Hades.”

Would a mere prophet claim to be the “First and the Last”?

WHO FORGIVES SINS?

While one human being may sin against another human being, there is a sense in which all sin is rebellion against God. Similarly, while you and I may forgive one another for the wrongs we commit, only God can offer ultimate forgiveness. Thus, the prophet David could say to God, “Against You, You only, I have sinned 
and done what is evil in Your sight” (Psalm 51:4), and the Prophet Daniel could declare, “To the Lord our God belong compassion and forgiveness, for we have rebelled against Him” (Daniel 9:9).

The Qur’an agrees that ultimate forgiveness belongs to God, for it asks, “Who can forgive sins except Allah?” (3:135).

It might surprise Muslims to learn that, in the New Testament, Jesus claims the ability to forgive sins. In Mark 2, a paralyzed man is brought to Jesus in order to be healed. Jesus’ response leads the religious leaders to accuse him of blasphemy:

Mark 2:5-7
And Jesus seeing their faith said to the paralytic, “Son, your sins are forgiven.” But some of the scribes were sitting there and reasoning in their hearts, “Why does this man speak that way? He is blaspheming; who can forgive sins but God alone?”

The scribes correctly recognized that only God can forgive sins. Yet Jesus (who referred to himself as the “Son of Man”), knowing their thoughts, replied that “the Son of Man has authority on earth to forgive sins” (Mark 2:10). He then healed the paralytic, proving that his claims were true.

THE LIGHT

In Psalm 27:1, the prophet David proclaims: “The LORD is my light and my salvation.”

Similarly, the Qur’an declares that “Allah is the light of the heavens and the earth” (24:35).

Yet Jesus tells his listeners that he is “the Light”:

John 8:12
“I am the Light of the world; he who follows Me will not walk in the darkness, but will have the Light of life.”

More here:

Where Did Jesus Say, “I Am God, Worship Me”?
answeringmuslims.com/2011/06/where-did-jesus-say-i-am-god-worship-me.html
 
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