If the Qur'an is wrong, why be Muslim?

[MartinJordan]

It doesn’t say what their names are. Before they hid in the cave, Paganism was the normative religion in their area.

What was their religion? Im not talking about the Pagans like the Emperor. Also state his name please according to the Quran. The Quran should know history? No?

Where in the Quran does it state Paganism was the normative religion in the area? (I don’t know)

MJ

 

[BornInMarch]

Here is [slightly reformatted by me]:

1. 
   *]The Qur’an claims that Jesus did not die on a cross. (Qur’an 4:157-158)
   *]The crucifixion of Jesus is accepted as an historical event among non-Muslim historians, including atheist historians.
   *]Therefore, the Qur’an contains error.
   *]To be a Muslim, you must believe that the Qur’an is without error.
   *]But the Qur’an contains error.
   *]Therefore, it does not make sense to be a Muslim.
   
   Thoughts?

1. 
   This is where your argument falls apart.
   
   Jesus dying on the cross is impossible to prove, as his body went missing soon afterwards (his tomb being empty on the third day is a MAJOR part of Christianity) and Ancient Rome didn’t exactly have a good forensic department.

 

[MartinJordan]

This is where your argument falls apart.

Jesus dying on the cross is impossible to prove, as his body went missing soon afterwards (his tomb being empty on the third day is a MAJOR part of Christianity) and Ancient Rome didn’t exactly have a good forensic department.

Does the Quran state this?

MJ

 

[hasantas]

And Hasantas-

All of your questions about Jesus still don’t diminish the harsh reality that your religion teaches you that God deceived the followers of Jesus into believing that He had died on the cross.

Does it trouble you at all to think of God doing something like that to those who were the closest friends and family of His prophet, Jesus?

God did not say Jesus was a humanly god but some people thought in that way. Did God force these people? No. And Jesus lived enough to explain that He was not crucified indeed. And it is very likely Jesus conveyed that but people took on issue according to their point of view. Did God force or deceive people? No. Some evil people set a trap for Jesus and God did frustrate that plot by making someone else to look like Jesus. Was that a deception for followers? No. If people did not record what exactly their prophet explained so that is their problem.

That issue is so expressed to support some doctrines which made up by people but not from scripture.

 

[hasantas]

Jesus was fully God AND fully man. This is the mystery of the Incarnation (and what is known as the hypostatic union).

As man, Jesus wept, got angry, was tired, hungry, etc.

Naturally, as a man who was about to undergo the painful ordeal of crucifixion, He wanted to be spared if that were possible.

This is a perfectly understandable human response even if we ponder it in light of His divinity!

So Jesus was a god indeed but He deceived(Hâ Shâ, never!) people to denominate Himself as a human?

 

[Novocastrian]

Here is [slightly reformatted by me]:

1. 
   *]The Qur’an claims that Jesus did not die on a cross. (Qur’an 4:157-158)
   *]The crucifixion of Jesus is accepted as an historical event among non-Muslim historians, including atheist historians.
   *]Therefore, the Qur’an contains error.
   *]To be a Muslim, you must believe that the Qur’an is without error.
   *]But the Qur’an contains error.
   *]Therefore, it does not make sense to be a Muslim.
   
   Thoughts?

1. 
   For 1-3 to logically follow, (2) needs simply to state the truth of the crucifixion. Of course, this is precisely what is contended. As things stand, one can accept (1) and (2) - as you formulate them - as true, and still deny (3), without any contradiction or poor reasoning.

 

[hasantas]

Sure. Jesus was a man, a prophet, a teacher. And God.

It’s not an either-or situation.

Yes! Thank you for pointing out the most obvious example of Jesus revealing His divinity! :clapping:

Jesus claimed to be the Messiah and the Son of God before the Sanhedrin. First, look at what was written by the prophet Daniel:

Daniel 7:13-14
13 “In my vision at night I looked, and there before me was one like a son of man, coming with the clouds of heaven. He approached the Ancient of Days and was led into his presence. 14 He was given authority, glory and sovereign power; all nations and peoples of every language worshiped him. His dominion is an everlasting dominion that will not pass away, and his kingdom is one that will never be destroyed.

We do not worship men, yet Daniel prophesied that the Son of Man would be worshiped as God. And Mark records Jesus applying this prophecy to Himself:

Mark 14:61-65
61 But Jesus remained silent and gave no answer. Again the high priest asked him, “Are you the Messiah, the Son of the Blessed One?” 62 “I am,” said Jesus. “And you will see the Son of Man sitting at the right hand of the Mighty One and coming on the clouds of heaven.” 63 The high priest tore his clothes. “Why do we need any more witnesses?” he asked. 64 “You have heard the blasphemy. What do you think?” They all condemned him as worthy of death.

Finally, we know that the apostle Thomas specifically worshiped Jesus as God (shown in a previous post) thereby fulfilling Daniel’s prophecy that the Son of Man (Jesus) would be worshiped as God.

Jesus was a man, a prophet, a teacher. Stop. Do not excess.

Here parallel interpretations.

Parallel Verses

New Living Translation
He was given authority, honor, and sovereignty over all the nations of the world, so that people of every race and nation and language would obey him. His rule is eternal–it will never end. His kingdom will never be destroyed.

English Standard Version
And to him was given dominion and glory and a kingdom, that all peoples, nations, and languages should serve him; his dominion is an everlasting dominion, which shall not pass away, and his kingdom one that shall not be destroyed.

New American Standard Bible
"And to Him was given dominion, Glory and a kingdom, That all the peoples, nations and men of every language Might serve Him. His dominion is an everlasting dominion Which will not pass away; And His kingdom is one Which will not be destroyed.

King James Bible
And there was given him dominion, and glory, and a kingdom, that all people, nations, and languages, should serve him: his dominion is an everlasting dominion, which shall not pass away, and his kingdom that which shall not be destroyed.

Holman Christian Standard Bible
He was given authority to rule, and glory, and a kingdom; so that those of every people, nation, and language should serve Him. His dominion is an everlasting dominion that will not pass away, and His kingdom is one that will not be destroyed."

International Standard Version
To him dominion was bestowed, along with glory and a kingdom, so that all peoples, nations, and languages are to serve him. His dominion is an everlasting dominion—it will never pass away—and his kingdom is one that will never be destroyed."

NET Bible
To him was given ruling authority, honor, and sovereignty. All peoples, nations, and language groups were serving him. His authority is eternal and will not pass away. His kingdom will not be destroyed.

New Heart English Bible
There was given him dominion, and glory, and a kingdom, that all the peoples, nations, and languages should serve him. His dominion is an everlasting dominion, which shall not pass away, and his kingdom that which shall not be destroyed.

GOD’S WORD® Translation
He was given power, honor, and a kingdom. People from every province, nation, and language were to serve him. His power is an eternal power that will not be taken away. His kingdom will never be destroyed.

JPS Tanakh 1917
And there was given him dominion, And glory, and a kingdom, That all the peoples, nations, and languages Should serve him; His dominion is an everlasting dominion, which shall not pass away, And his kingdom that which shall not be destroyed.

New American Standard 1977
“And to Him was given dominion,
Glory and a kingdom,
That all the peoples, nations, and men of every language
Might serve Him.
His dominion is an everlasting dominion
Which will not pass away;
And His kingdom is one
Which will not be destroyed.

Jubilee Bible 2000
And he gave him dominion and glory and kingdom; and all the peoples, nations, and tongues served him: his dominion is an eternal dominion, which shall not pass away, and his kingdom such that it shall never be corrupted.

King James 2000 Bible
And there was given him dominion, and glory, and a kingdom, that all people, nations, and languages, should serve him: his dominion is an everlasting dominion, which shall not pass away, and his kingdom that which shall not be destroyed.

American King James Version
And there was given him dominion, and glory, and a kingdom, that all people, nations, and languages, should serve him: his dominion is an everlasting dominion, which shall not pass away, and his kingdom that which shall not be destroyed.

As you see it is not said to worship man perhaps serve or obey! And it is not clear if it point Jesus.

 

[Vico]

Here is [slightly reformatted by me]:

1. 
   *]The Qur’an claims that Jesus did not die on a cross. (Qur’an 4:157-158)
   *]The crucifixion of Jesus is accepted as an historical event among non-Muslim historians, including atheist historians.
   *]Therefore, the Qur’an contains error.
   *]To be a Muslim, you must believe that the Qur’an is without error.
   *]But the Qur’an contains error.
   *]Therefore, it does not make sense to be a Muslim.
   
   Thoughts?

1. 
   Evangelii Gaudium of H.H. Pope Francis
   1. Our relationship with the followers of Islam has taken on great importance, since they are now significantly present in many traditionally Christian countries, where they can freely worship and become fully a part of society. We must never forget that they “profess to hold the faith of Abraham, and together with us they adore the one, merciful God, who will judge humanity on the last day”.[198] The sacred writings of Islam have retained some Christian teachings; Jesus and Mary receive profound veneration and it is admirable to see how Muslims both young and old, men and women, make time for daily prayer and faithfully take part in religious services. Many of them also have a deep conviction that their life, in its entirety, is from God and for God. They also acknowledge the need to respond to God with an ethical commitment and with mercy towards those most in need.
   2. In order to sustain dialogue with Islam, suitable training is essential for all involved, not only so that they can be solidly and joyfully grounded in their own identity, but so that they can also acknowledge the values of others, appreciate the concerns underlying their demands and shed light on shared beliefs. We Christians should embrace with affection and respect Muslim immigrants to our countries in the same way that we hope and ask to be received and respected in countries of Islamic tradition. I ask and I humbly entreat those countries to grant Christians freedom to worship and to practice their faith, in light of the freedom which followers of Islam enjoy in Western countries! Faced with disconcerting episodes of violent fundamentalism, our respect for true followers of Islam should lead us to avoid hateful generalisations, for authentic Islam and the proper reading of the Koran are opposed to every form of violence.
   w2.vatican.va/content/francesco/en/apost_exhortations/documents/papa-francesco_esortazione-ap_20131124_evangelii-gaudium.html#In_union_with_God,_we_hear_a_plea

 

[Novocastrian]

Jesus was a man, a prophet, a teacher. Stop. Do not excess.

As you see it is not said to worship man perhaps serve or obey! And it is not clear if it point Jesus.

John 8:48.

“Before Abraham was, I Am.”

 

[Hatikvah]

John 8:48.

“Before Abraham was, I Am.”

Let me elaborate. God’s personal name is the tetragrammaton (accepted by Christians, Jews and Samaritans, all of whom use a variation of the Torah). It is special because it is ancient, it points to God’s eternity and self-existence, and it would only have been used by Him (though people would probably know way back when what it meant?)

The tetragrammaton is an ancient Hebrew first person singular imperfect form in both present and future tense of a word derived from another word simply meaning existed, but that can come out as many things in English:

• “to be”,
• “to exist”,
• “to cause to become”, or
• “to come to pass”

When used by God speaking of Himself, it would come out like (keep in mind that English is not Semitic, so we can get many different words with the same meanings):

• I Am
• I Am Who I am (Exodus 3:14)
• I Am That I Am
• I Am He (John 8:24)
• It Is I (Greek variation)
• I Will Be What I Will Be (variation)

God said to the prophet Moses:

God said to Moses, “ I AM WHO I AM.” And he said, “Say this to the people of Israel: ‘ I AM has sent me to you.’” (Exodus 3:14, ESV)

So we have two options to believe:** God is using a timeless word that emphasizes His eternity and that He is self-existent (aesity) and self-fulfilling**; or, He has no idea what He is talking about. Christians usually lean towards the first.

 

[JimmyDFG]

Jesus was a man, a prophet, a teacher. Stop. Do not excess.

Here parallel interpretations.

Parallel Verses

New Living Translation
He was given authority, honor, and sovereignty over all the nations of the world, so that people of every race and nation and language would obey him. His rule is eternal–it will never end. His kingdom will never be destroyed.

English Standard Version
And to him was given dominion and glory and a kingdom, that all peoples, nations, and languages should serve him; his dominion is an everlasting dominion, which shall not pass away, and his kingdom one that shall not be destroyed.

New American Standard Bible
"And to Him was given dominion, Glory and a kingdom, That all the peoples, nations and men of every language Might serve Him. His dominion is an everlasting dominion Which will not pass away; And His kingdom is one Which will not be destroyed.

King James Bible
And there was given him dominion, and glory, and a kingdom, that all people, nations, and languages, should serve him: his dominion is an everlasting dominion, which shall not pass away, and his kingdom that which shall not be destroyed.

Holman Christian Standard Bible
He was given authority to rule, and glory, and a kingdom; so that those of every people, nation, and language should serve Him. His dominion is an everlasting dominion that will not pass away, and His kingdom is one that will not be destroyed."

International Standard Version
To him dominion was bestowed, along with glory and a kingdom, so that all peoples, nations, and languages are to serve him. His dominion is an everlasting dominion—it will never pass away—and his kingdom is one that will never be destroyed."

NET Bible
To him was given ruling authority, honor, and sovereignty. All peoples, nations, and language groups were serving him. His authority is eternal and will not pass away. His kingdom will not be destroyed.

New Heart English Bible
There was given him dominion, and glory, and a kingdom, that all the peoples, nations, and languages should serve him. His dominion is an everlasting dominion, which shall not pass away, and his kingdom that which shall not be destroyed.

GOD’S WORD® Translation
He was given power, honor, and a kingdom. People from every province, nation, and language were to serve him. His power is an eternal power that will not be taken away. His kingdom will never be destroyed.

JPS Tanakh 1917
And there was given him dominion, And glory, and a kingdom, That all the peoples, nations, and languages Should serve him; His dominion is an everlasting dominion, which shall not pass away, And his kingdom that which shall not be destroyed.

New American Standard 1977
“And to Him was given dominion,
Glory and a kingdom,
That all the peoples, nations, and men of every language
Might serve Him.
His dominion is an everlasting dominion
Which will not pass away;
And His kingdom is one
Which will not be destroyed.

Jubilee Bible 2000
And he gave him dominion and glory and kingdom; and all the peoples, nations, and tongues served him: his dominion is an eternal dominion, which shall not pass away, and his kingdom such that it shall never be corrupted.

King James 2000 Bible
And there was given him dominion, and glory, and a kingdom, that all people, nations, and languages, should serve him: his dominion is an everlasting dominion, which shall not pass away, and his kingdom that which shall not be destroyed.

American King James Version
And there was given him dominion, and glory, and a kingdom, that all people, nations, and languages, should serve him: his dominion is an everlasting dominion, which shall not pass away, and his kingdom that which shall not be destroyed.

As you see it is not said to worship man perhaps serve or obey! And it is not clear if it point Jesus.

hasantas, we’ve been through this before on other treads. It seems you’re unwilling to believe. Let me point out to you once again
John 5:25
“Amen, amen, I say to you, the hour is coming and is now here when the dead will hear the voice of the Son of God, and those who hear will live.”

John 9:35-38
When Jesus heard that they had thrown him out, he found him and said, “Do you believe in the Son of Man?”
He answered and said, “Who is he, sir, that I may believe in him?”Jesus said to him, “You have seen him and the one speaking with you is he."
He said, “I do believe, Lord,” and he worshiped him.

Hebrews 1:6
And again, when he leads the first-born into the world, he says:“Let all the angels of God worship him.

hasantas, lets compare a verses from the New Testament and the quran

John 14:9
Jesus said to him, “Have I been with you for so long a time and you still do not know me, Philip? Whoever has seen me has seen the Father. How can you say, ‘Show us the Father’?

and now the quran 23:91
“Allah has not taken any son, nor has there ever been with Him any deity…”

Also in verse 5:75 of the quran only gives a half truth when it says “Christ son of Mary”

Christ, son of Mary, was not but a messenger; [other] messengers have passed on before him. And his mother was a supporter of truth. They both used to eat food. Look how We make clear to them the signs; then look how they are deluded.

 

[arthra]

Here is [slightly reformatted by me]:

1. 
   *]The Qur’an claims that Jesus did not die on a cross. (Qur’an 4:157-158)
   *]The crucifixion of Jesus is accepted as an historical event among non-Muslim historians, including atheist historians.
   *]Therefore, the Qur’an contains error.
   *]To be a Muslim, you must believe that the Qur’an is without error.
   *]But the Qur’an contains error.
   *]Therefore, it does not make sense to be a Muslim.
   
   Thoughts?

1. 
   The above is very simplistic view of a verse in the Qur’an based on a poor interpretation… I’m not a Muslim but I believe a more correct view is possible.
   
   Let’s look again at Surih 4 verse 157
   
   Translation of A.Yusuf Ali
   
   *That they said (in boast), “We killed Christ Jesus the son of Mary, the Messenger of Allah”;- but they killed him not, nor crucified him, **but so it was made to appear to them, *and those who differ therein are full of doubts, with no (certain) knowledge, but only conjecture to follow, for of a surety they killed him not:-
   
   and consider Surih 2:154
   
   And say not of those who are slain in the way of Allah: “They are dead.” Nay, they are living, though ye perceive (it) not.
   
   The verse focuses on the reality of the spirit of the martyr who was slain! The spirit is living.
   
   The same can be said in my view to the Surih 4:157… while the corporeal body was crucified the Spirit of Jesus was not killed…and in verse 158:
   
   Nay, Allah raised him up unto Himself; and Allah is Exalted in Power, Wise;-
   
   There is also very lovely way this is confirmed by the Gospel of Luke…
   
   The last words of Jesus on the cross according to the Gospel of Luke translated in the Jerusalem Bible read:
   
   *…and when Jesus had cried out in a loud voice, He said, “Father, into Your hands I commit my Spirit” with these words he breathed His last.
   *
   ~ Luke 22:46
   
   So Jesus committed His Spirit to God and the Qur’an says **Allah raised him up unto Himself.
   
   **Surih 4:157 is also translated in a similar way by Pickthal:
   
   And because of their saying: We slew the Messiah, Jesus son of Mary, Allah’s messenger - they slew him not nor crucified him, but it appeared so unto them; and lo! those who disagree concerning it are in doubt thereof; they have no knowledge thereof save pursuit of a conjecture; they slew him not for certain.

 

[Randy_Carson]

There are all sorts of things in the Bible, too, that God has done that I would think would trouble many Christians. For example, in 1 Samuel 15, God tells Saul to commit genocide by killing all of the Amalekites including women, children and infants. Even animals are not spared:

Or in Leviticus 25:44-46, God allows the Israelites to keep slaves as property and for their children to inherit their slaves:

True.

God wiped out evil people out when he sent the flood.

God wiped out evil people out when he rained down sulfur on Sodom & Gomorrah.

God wiped out evil people when he sent the Israelite army to conquer Canaan.

Now, we can discuss whether these actions prove that God is immoral in another thread if you like, but that’s not what THIS thread is about.

THIS thread is about whether the Qur’an is wrong or not, and if so, what are the implications for those who believe it is the Word of Allah.

 

[Randy_Carson]

Yes, I admit that the earliest historical sources says that Jesus was crucified, but I trust the Qur’an’s history above and beyond all historical sources. If Jesus was crucified, then yeah, there’s no reason to be a muslim. If he wasn’t, there is every reason to be a muslim.

Okay, you trust the Qur’an.

Why?

Matthew, Mark, Luke, John, Paul, The Gospel of Thomas, Thallus, Mara bar Serapion, Josephus, Pliny the Younger, Tacitus, Lucian of Samosota, and Sexutus Julius Africanus ALL reference the crucifixion of Jesus.

And who claims that Jesus was not crucified?

One man 600 years later?

And this passes for evidence in your estimation?

Would you accept such weak “evidence” in a court of law? :nope:

 

[Thorolfr]

THIS thread is about whether the Qur’an is wrong or not, and if so, what are the implications for those who believe it is the Word of Allah.

Maybe we should look at number 4 on your list: “To be a Muslim, you must believe that the Qur’an is without error.”

Can you actually substantiate that a Muslim must believe that the Qur’an is without error? I know a lot of Muslims and not all of them believe this.

 

[claymcdermott]

True.

 

[JimmyDFG]

The above is very simplistic view of a verse in the Qur’an based on a poor interpretation… I’m not a Muslim but I believe a more correct view is possible.

Let’s look again at Surih 4 verse 157

Translation of A.Yusuf Ali

*That they said (in boast), “We killed Christ Jesus the son of Mary, the Messenger of Allah”;- but they killed him not, nor crucified him, **but so it was made to appear to them, ***and those who differ therein are full of doubts, with no (certain) knowledge, but only conjecture to follow, for of a surety they killed him not:-

and consider Surih 2:154

And say not of those who are slain in the way of Allah: “They are dead.” Nay, they are living, though ye perceive (it) not.

The verse focuses on the reality of the spirit of the martyr who was slain! The spirit is living.

The same can be said in my view to the Surih 4:157… while the corporeal body was crucified the Spirit of Jesus was not killed…and in verse 158:

Nay, Allah raised him up unto Himself; and Allah is Exalted in Power, Wise;-

There is also very lovely way this is confirmed by the Gospel of Luke…

The last words of Jesus on the cross according to the Gospel of Luke translated in the Jerusalem Bible read:

…and when Jesus had cried out in a loud voice, He said, "Father, into Your hands I commit my Spirit" with these words he breathed His last.

~ Luke 22:46

So Jesus committed His Spirit to God and the Qur’an says **Allah raised him up unto Himself.

**Surih 4:157 is also translated in a similar way by Pickthal:

And because of their saying: We slew the Messiah, Jesus son of Mary, Allah’s messenger - they slew him not nor crucified him, but it appeared so unto them; and lo! those who disagree concerning it are in doubt thereof; they have no knowledge thereof save pursuit of a conjecture; they slew him not for certain.

I noticed in your verse it doesn’t give all of it

quran 4:157
And [for] their saying, “Indeed, we have killed the Messiah, Jesus, the son of Mary, the messenger of Allah .” And they did not kill him, nor did they crucify him; but [another] was made to resemble him to them. And indeed, those who differ over it are in doubt about it. They have no knowledge of it except the following of assumption. And they did not kill him, for certain.

From the above verse it says “but [another] was made to resemble him”. This would mean they did not kill Jesus…nor was he on the Cross. If it was someone else ( the person that resembled Jesus that they killed ) that would mean Jesus was not killed not in body nor in Spirit.
There are Jewish and Roman records indicating the Crucifixion of Jesus. This is evidence muslims and the baha’i fail to realize.
If you want to believe that he was on the cross but they did not kill his Spirit what happen to his body? Three days later was the Resurrection of Jesus body and Spirit

Do the muslims believe Christians are in “doubt”?
In an islamic view, when and where did Jesus die?

 

[hasantas]

Okay, you trust the Qur’an.

Why?

Matthew, Mark, Luke, John, Paul, The Gospel of Thomas, Thallus, Mara bar Serapion, Josephus, Pliny the Younger, Tacitus, Lucian of Samosota, and Sexutus Julius Africanus ALL reference the crucifixion of Jesus.

And who claims that Jesus was not crucified?

One man 600 years later?

And this passes for evidence in your estimation?

Would you accept such weak “evidence” in a court of law? :nope:

Word of God is above every thing. After Jesus what was written by people cannot be equal to word of God. Yet Bible support Qur’an as it is mentioned in Luke 22:42 which imply survive of Jesus from that bloody cup!

 

[Randy_Carson]

Maybe we should look at number 4 on your list: “To be a Muslim, you must believe that the Qur’an is without error.”

Can you actually substantiate that a Muslim must believe that the Qur’an is without error? I know a lot of Muslims and not all of them believe this.

Isn’t this one of the six/seven articles of faith?

 

[Randy_Carson]

I noticed in your verse it doesn’t give all of it

quran 4:157
And [for] their saying, “Indeed, we have killed the Messiah, Jesus, the son of Mary, the messenger of Allah .” And they did not kill him, nor did they crucify him; but [another] was made to resemble him to them. And indeed, those who differ over it are in doubt about it. They have no knowledge of it except the following of assumption. And they did not kill him, for certain.

From the above verse it says “but [another] was made to resemble him”. This would mean they did not kill Jesus…nor was he on the Cross. If it was someone else ( the person that resembled Jesus that they killed ) that would mean Jesus was not killed not in body nor in Spirit.
There are Jewish and Roman records indicating the Crucifixion of Jesus. This is evidence muslims and the baha’i fail to realize.
If you want to believe that he was on the cross but they did not kill his Spirit what happen to his body? Three days later was the Resurrection of Jesus body and Spirit

Do the muslims believe Christians are in “doubt”?
In an islamic view, when and where did Jesus die?

:clapping: