If the Qur'an is wrong, why be Muslim?

[hasantas]

Let me elaborate. God’s personal name is the tetragrammaton (accepted by Christians, Jews and Samaritans, all of whom use a variation of the Torah). It is special because it is ancient, it points to God’s eternity and self-existence, and it would only have been used by Him (though people would probably know way back when what it meant?)

The tetragrammaton is an ancient Hebrew first person singular imperfect form in both present and future tense of a word derived from another word simply meaning existed, but that can come out as many things in English:

• “to be”,
• “to exist”,
• “to cause to become”, or
• “to come to pass”

When used by God speaking of Himself, it would come out like (keep in mind that English is not Semitic, so we can get many different words with the same meanings):

• I Am
• I Am Who I am (Exodus 3:14)
• I Am That I Am
• I Am He (John 8:24)
• It Is I (Greek variation)
• I Will Be What I Will Be (variation)

God said to the prophet Moses:

So we have two options to believe:** God is using a timeless word that emphasizes His eternity and that He is self-existent (aesity) and self-fulfilling**; or, He has no idea what He is talking about. Christians usually lean towards the first.

Jesus talked about Himself! So should Jesus say in that way : Before Adam was you are or he is or she is or they are etc? If Jesus talk about Himeself so He would say I AM. Is there any other way to express that?

If I use that term so am I God? Before you was I AM there!

 

[Randy_Carson]

Word of God is above every thing. After Jesus what was written by people cannot be equal to word of God. Yet Bible support Qur’an as it is mentioned in Luke 22:42 which imply survive of Jesus from that bloody cup!

I agree with you that the Word of God is above the opinions of men. I disagree that the Qur’an is the Word of God.

The problem is that the Qur’an was written by a single man 600 years “after Jesus”, and this one man claimed that Jesus did not die on the cross and that imposter was killed instead.

This does not correspond well with the history accepted by even atheist scholars in light of the testimony given by all of the authors I listed previously.

IOW, one man claimed that Jesus was replaced by a substitute. The majority view of scholars - of all beliefs and non-beliefs - is that Jesus died.

The weight of historical evidence is against the Qur’an as an accurate account of what happened to Jesus.

Now, if the Qur’an is wrong about the crucifixion of Jesus, is it possible that the one who wrote it was also wrong in denying that Jesus is God - the second person of the Trinity?

 

[Randy_Carson]

Jesus talked about Himself! So should Jesus say in that way : Before Adam was you are or he is or she is or they are etc? If Jesus talk about Himeself so He would say I AM. Is there any other way to express that?

If I use that term so am I God? Before you was I AM there!

God was viewed as the Father of Adam in that God made him at the beginning of all creation.

Now, if Jesus says, “Before Adam was ever made, I AM”, he is not only using God’s name but claiming to have pre-existed Adam (and all creation).

Only God existed before the Universe came into being.

Therefore, Jesus is claiming to be God.

And His enemies understood this. Why don’t you?

 

[hasantas]

I noticed in your verse it doesn’t give all of it

quran 4:157
And [for] their saying, “Indeed, we have killed the Messiah, Jesus, the son of Mary, the messenger of Allah .” And they did not kill him, nor did they crucify him; but [another] was made to resemble him to them. And indeed, those who differ over it are in doubt about it. They have no knowledge of it except the following of assumption. And they did not kill him, for certain.

From the above verse it says “but [another] was made to resemble him”. This would mean they did not kill Jesus…nor was he on the Cross. If it was someone else ( the person that resembled Jesus that they killed ) that would mean Jesus was not killed not in body nor in Spirit.
There are Jewish and Roman records indicating the Crucifixion of Jesus. This is evidence muslims and the baha’i fail to realize.
If you want to believe that he was on the cross but they did not kill his Spirit what happen to his body? Three days later was the Resurrection of Jesus body and Spirit

Do the muslims believe Christians are in “doubt”?
In an islamic view, when and where did Jesus die?

Jesus did not die. Jesus will send back on the world and He will die as other human. The time is not definite but close to the end of the world.

There is no any statement from Jesus in Bible by which Jesus explained that He was crucified and raised from death. We as Muslims believe in and trust God and prophets but not conjecture of people.

The spirit do not die but spirit get out of body and that is called as death. Neither spirit nor body of Jesus did die.

 

[hasantas]

God was viewed as the Father of Adam in that God made him at the beginning of all creation.

Now, if Jesus says, “Before Adam was ever made, I AM”, he is not only using God’s name but claiming to have pre-existed Adam (and all creation).

Only God existed before the Universe came into being.

Therefore, Jesus is claiming to be God.

And His enemies understood this. Why don’t you?

There is a hadith in which Muhammad said: Before every thing my essence(light) was created. So light of Muhammad was before universe even before Heavens. But non of Muslims think that Muhammad is God!

These kind of statements are metaphorical which can be interpreted in many ways.

 

[hasantas]

I agree with you that the Word of God is above the opinions of men. I disagree that the Qur’an is the Word of God.

The problem is that the Qur’an was written by a single man 600 years “after Jesus”, and this one man claimed that Jesus did not die on the cross and that imposter was killed instead.

This does not correspond well with the history accepted by even atheist scholars in light of the testimony given by all of the authors I listed previously.

IOW, one man claimed that Jesus was replaced by a substitute. The majority view of scholars - of all beliefs and non-beliefs - is that Jesus died.

The weight of historical evidence is against the Qur’an as an accurate account of what happened to Jesus.

Now, if the Qur’an is wrong about the crucifixion of Jesus, is it possible that the one who wrote it was also wrong in denying that Jesus is God - the second person of the Trinity?

If you say Qur’an is just words of Muhammad hence you cannot conlude any fact. Qur’an is directly word of God and you can start at a point to refute all thousands of evidences which prove that Qur’an is revelation which was revealed to Muhammad.

Again is there any statement by Jesus in which He said “I raised from death”? No. So why do you claim that Qur’an is wrong?

Historical records say that a man was crucified. And that man resembled Jesus. So all records of history do not conflict with Qur’an because Qur’an say same thing but by one difference. Yet we are not able to comprehend the fact through materials so why should nut us trust word of God(Qur’an)?

 

[JimmyDFG]

Word of God is above every thing. After Jesus what was written by people cannot be equal to word of God. Yet Bible support Qur’an as it is mentioned in Luke 22:42 which imply survive of Jesus from that bloody cup!

How does it imply Jesus had survived? No wheres in the Bible does it say Jesus “survived” the Crucifixion.
Jesus was fulfilling his ministry completely as a man. He was made under the law (Gal. 4:4) and operated under the law. He fulfilled his ministry having emptied himself (Phil. 2:5-8) and was completely subject to the Father (Luke 22:42). Therefore, since he was under obligation to fulfill the law (which included complete dependence upon the Father) and since he had emptied himself and was working in cooperation with human limitations.

 

[JimmyDFG]

There is a hadith in which Muhammad said: Before every thing my essence(light) was created. So light of Muhammad was before universe even before Heavens. But non of Muslims think that Muhammad is God!

These kind of statements are metaphorical which can be interpreted in many ways.

Why then did muhammad have no recollection of anything until after the age of 40, until Gabriel visited him in a cave?

 

[Randy_Carson]

Jesus did not die.

What is your evidence for this?

A dozen or more contemporaries of Jesus wrote accounts of his crucifixion.

Who is it that claims that Jesus did not die on the cross?

Someone who was not there? Someone who did not see Him hanging on the cross? And someone who did not see the holes in His hands, feet and side when He appeared three days later?

Why should we believe this person? Would any court in the world accept such testimony?

Jesus will send back on the world and He will die as other human. The time is not definite but close to the end of the world.

Since Jesus has died once for all, there is no second death for Him.

There is no any statement from Jesus in Bible by which Jesus explained that He was crucified and raised from death. We as Muslims believe in and trust God and prophets but not conjecture of people.

Good. Then you should trust these words of the Prophet Jesus:

Luke 24:36-47
Jesus himself stood among them and said to them, “Peace be with you.”

37 They were startled and frightened, thinking they saw a ghost. 38 He said to them, “Why are you troubled, and why do doubts rise in your minds? 39 Look at my hands and my feet. It is I myself! Touch me and see; a ghost does not have flesh and bones, as you see I have.”

40 When he had said this, he showed them his hands and feet. 41 And while they still did not believe it because of joy and amazement, he asked them, “Do you have anything here to eat?” 42 They gave him a piece of broiled fish, 43 and he took it and ate it in their presence.

44 He said to them, “This is what I told you while I was still with you: Everything must be fulfilled that is written about me in the Law of Moses, the Prophets and the Psalms.”

45 Then he opened their minds so they could understand the Scriptures. 46 He told them, “This is what is written: The Messiah will suffer and rise from the dead on the third day, 47 and repentance for the forgiveness of sins will be preached in his name to all nations, beginning at Jerusalem.

Why would the disciples think they saw a ghost if they did not think that Jesus was actually dead?

And why would Jesus be showing them his wounds if not to convince them that He was really alive again?

WHAT GREATER EXPLANATION COULD HE GIVE?

The spirit do not die but spirit get out of body and that is called as death. Neither spirit nor body of Jesus did die.

What proof do you have of this? The eyewitness accounts say otherwise?

The Jews in Jerusalem did not claim that Jesus did not die; they claimed that the disciples stole Jesus’ body.

This is enemy attestation that Jesus DIED!

So, how can someone living 600 years later and hundreds of miles away be believed when he claims that Jesus did not die?

 

[MartinJordan]

What is your evidence for this?

A dozen or more contemporaries of Jesus wrote accounts of his crucifixion.

Who is it that claims that Jesus did not die on the cross?

Someone who was not there? Someone who did not see Him hanging on the cross? And someone who did not see the holes in His hands, feet and side when He appeared three days later?

Why should we believe this person? Would any court in the world accept such testimony?

Since Jesus has died once for all, there is no second death for Him.

Good. Then you should trust these words of the Prophet Jesus:

Luke 24:36-47
Jesus himself stood among them and said to them, “Peace be with you.”

37 They were startled and frightened, thinking they saw a ghost. 38 He said to them, “Why are you troubled, and why do doubts rise in your minds? 39 Look at my hands and my feet. It is I myself! Touch me and see; a ghost does not have flesh and bones, as you see I have.”

40 When he had said this, he showed them his hands and feet. 41 And while they still did not believe it because of joy and amazement, he asked them, “Do you have anything here to eat?” 42 They gave him a piece of broiled fish, 43 and he took it and ate it in their presence.

44 He said to them, “This is what I told you while I was still with you: Everything must be fulfilled that is written about me in the Law of Moses, the Prophets and the Psalms.”

45 Then he opened their minds so they could understand the Scriptures. 46 He told them, “This is what is written: The Messiah will suffer and rise from the dead on the third day, 47 and repentance for the forgiveness of sins will be preached in his name to all nations, beginning at Jerusalem.

Why would the disciples think they saw a ghost if they did not think that Jesus was actually dead?

And why would Jesus be showing them his wounds if not to convince them that He was really alive again?

WHAT GREATER EXPLANATION COULD HE GIVE?

What proof do you have of this? The eyewitness accounts say otherwise?

The Jews in Jerusalem did not claim that Jesus did not die; they claimed that the disciples stole Jesus’ body.

This is enemy attestation that Jesus DIED!

So, how can someone living 600 years later and hundreds of miles away be believed when he claims that Jesus did not die?

Amazingly:

forums.catholic-questions.org/showpost.php?p=14096560&postcount=544

Yet Jesus didn’t die according to the Gospels!

MJ

 

[Thorolfr]

 

[Randy_Carson]

There is a hadith in which Muhammad said: Before every thing my essence(light) was created. So light of Muhammad was before universe even before Heavens. But non of Muslims think that Muhammad is God!

These kind of statements are metaphorical which can be interpreted in many ways.

Muslims would be right to think that he was not God because he never claimed to be God.

Jesus, however, did claim to be God and backed up His claim with many miracles. Speaking to the Jews, He said:

John 10:36-38
"Why then do you accuse me of blasphemy because I said, ‘I am God’s Son’? 37 Do not believe me unless I do the works of my Father. 38 But if I do them, even though you do not believe me, believe the works, that you may know and understand that the Father is in me, and I in the Father.”

So, the miracles of Jesus were done so that people would know that He was sent by God and that His claims to be God were true.

 

[Randy_Carson]

If you say Qur’an is just words of Muhammad hence you cannot conlude any fact. Qur’an is directly word of God and you can start at a point to refute all thousands of evidences which prove that Qur’an is revelation which was revealed to Muhammad.

Can you prove that the Qur’an is the direct Word of God? Who said so? Muhammad? Okay…what proof did he give and how is his claim corroborated? Are there any independent sources like Josephus and Tacitus that historians agree prove Muhammad’s claim?

Would you convict someone in court on the testimony of one man?

Again is there any statement by Jesus in which He said “I raised from death”? No.

hasantas…Jesus didn’t merely SAY that he was “raised from death”…anyone could have lied about that. Instead, He SHOWED them His wounds and ate a piece of fish in front of them all. Thomas put his finger into Jesus’ side.

Liars give “statements” in court that are false every day, so talk is cheap; Jesus’ wound could not be faked.

So why do you claim that Qur’an is wrong?

If the Qur’an says that Jesus did not die, then the man who wrote it was in error. REAL eyewitnesses wrote that Jesus died and rose again as proof that He was who He claimed to be: GOD.

Historical records say that a man was crucified. And that man resembled Jesus. So all records of history do not conflict with Qur’an because Qur’an say same thing but by one difference. Yet we are not able to comprehend the fact through materials so why should nut us trust word of God(Qur’an)?

“A man”? Just “a man”, hasantas? No name?

And what historian claimed that the man crucified merely resembled Jesus, hasantas? Do you have any specific references you can share?

This would be useful information when debating mythicists because even the evidence that someone “resembled” Jesus would be evidence that Jesus really existed.

But as for the name of the man crucified:

Josephus (AD 93-94)

“At this time there was a wise man called Jesus, and his conduct was good, and he was known to be virtuous. Many people among the Jews and the other nations became his disciples. **Pilate condemned him to be crucified and to die. But those who had become his disciples did not abandon his discipleship. They reported that he had appeared to them three days after his crucifixion and that he was alive. **Accordingly, he was perhaps the Messiah, concerning whom the prophets have reported wonders. And the tribe of the Christians, so named after him, has not disappeared to this day.” (Antiquities XVIII, 63 from Josephus: The Essential Writings by Paul L. Maier, page 264-265; this text is from An Arabic Version of the Testimonium Flavianum and Its Implications by S. Pines [Jerusalem, 1971]; another translation of above found in Van Voorst, page 97; for a different version of the text infamously interpolated by later Christian editors, see discussion in Van Voorst, page 85ff; also full discussion in A Marginal Jew, volume 1 by John P. Meier, pages 56ff)

• this text, which definitely mentions Jesus and his crucifixion under Pilate by a well-known Jewish historian of the first century, is hotly disputed because of possible later ‘Christian interpolation’ but the above is the Arabic text found without these ‘Christian’ additions;
• this version leaves the question of Jesus’ messianic status neutral (“perhaps the Messiah”);
• this is another piece corroborating a ‘neutral reconstruction’ of the Testimonium (which is the preferred view among scholars);
• the neutral reconstruction, which isolates and removes the later pro-Christian interpolations, makes good sense of the pattern of ancient Christian witnesses to Josephus (e.g. Van Voorst, page 95-97).

 

[JimmyDFG]

Jesus did not die. Jesus will send back on the world and He will die as other human. The time is not definite but close to the end of the world.

There is no any statement from Jesus in Bible by which Jesus explained that He was crucified and raised from death. We as Muslims believe in and trust God and prophets but not conjecture of people.

The spirit do not die but spirit get out of body and that is called as death. Neither spirit nor body of Jesus did die.

Actually hasantas you are wrong. In John 2:19-22
19 Jesus answered and said to them, “Destroy this temple and in three days I will raise it up.”

20 The Jews said, “This temple has been under construction for forty-six years,and you will raise it up in three days?”

21 But he was speaking about the temple of his body.

22 Therefore, when he was raised from the dead, his disciples remembered that he had said this, and they came to believe the scripture and the word Jesus had spoken.

No where does it proclaim in the Bible that Jesus did not die or that He will die as other human. Yet you claim to have the same Bible as Christians do

 

[Fauken]

Actually hasantas you are wrong. In John 2:19-22
19 Jesus answered and said to them, “Destroy this temple and in three days I will raise it up.”

20 The Jews said, “This temple has been under construction for forty-six years,and you will raise it up in three days?”

21 But he was speaking about the temple of his body.

22 Therefore, when he was raised from the dead, his disciples remembered that he had said this, and they came to believe the scripture and the word Jesus had spoken.

No where does it proclaim in the Bible that Jesus did not die or that He will die as other human. Yet you claim to have the same Bible as Christians do

Another example is Luke 24:46-47:

“And [Jesus] said to them, ‘Thus it is written that the Messiah would suffer and rise from the dead on the third day and that repentance, for the forgiveness of sins, would be preached in his name to all the nations, beginning from Jerusalem.’"

 

[arthra]

I noticed in your verse it doesn’t give all of it

quran 4:157
And [for] their saying, “Indeed, we have killed the Messiah, Jesus, the son of Mary, the messenger of Allah .” And they did not kill him, nor did they crucify him; but [another] was made to resemble him to them. And indeed, those who differ over it are in doubt about it. They have no knowledge of it except the following of assumption. And they did not kill him, for certain.

From the above verse it says “but [another] was made to resemble him”. This would mean they did not kill Jesus…nor was he on the Cross. If it was someone else ( the person that resembled Jesus that they killed ) that would mean Jesus was not killed not in body nor in Spirit.
There are Jewish and Roman records indicating the Crucifixion of Jesus. This is evidence muslims and the baha’i fail to realize.
If you want to believe that he was on the cross but they did not kill his Spirit what happen to his body? Three days later was the Resurrection of Jesus body and Spirit

Do the muslims believe Christians are in “doubt”?
In an islamic view, when and where did Jesus die?

Jimmy:

The translation you are using is in question… I left nothing out of the verse…

The resurrection was spiritual not physical. Jesus physically died on the cross and as the Gospel says He committed His Spirit to God. The Qur’an as I suggested in my post agrees with this.

There’s an excellent book I’d recommend to you still in print “The Crucifixion and the Qur’an” A study of the History of Muslim Thought by Todd Lawson.

amazon.com/Crucifixion-Quran-History-Muslim-Thought/dp/1851686355

As Baha’is we believe Jesus was martyred on the cross and that His resurrection was spiritual.

For your reference see my post…again at
forums.catholic-questions.org/showpost.php?p=14096657&postcount=53

 

[hasantas]

Another example is Luke 24:46-47:

“And [Jesus] said to them, ‘Thus it is written that the Messiah would suffer and rise from the dead on the third day and that repentance, for the forgiveness of sins, would be preached in his name to all the nations, beginning from Jerusalem.’"

Yes. Jesus was informed about that bloody cup so He prayed God to be saved. Jesus did not know if His pray either would be accepted.

 

[Hatikvah]

There is a hadith in which Muhammad said: Before every thing my essence(light) was created. So light of Muhammad was before universe even before Heavens. But non of Muslims think that Muhammad is God!

These kind of statements are metaphorical which can be interpreted in many ways.

But Islam believes in the pre-existence of the soul (like Mormonism); most Christians do not because the Second Council of Constantinople (AD 553) condemned it. That belief is called Origenism. Therefore, Jesus must have meant something different than God made me just like all of you before creation.

He’s saying I have existed for all eternity and I Am.

 

[JimmyDFG]

Jimmy:

The translation you are using is in question… I left nothing out of the verse…

The resurrection was spiritual not physical. Jesus physically died on the cross and as the Gospel says He committed His Spirit to God. The Qur’an as I suggested in my post agrees with this.

There’s an excellent book I’d recommend to you still in print “The Crucifixion and the Qur’an” A study of the History of Muslim Thought by Todd Lawson.

amazon.com/Crucifixion-Quran-History-Muslim-Thought/dp/1851686355

As Baha’is we believe Jesus was martyred on the cross and that His resurrection was spiritual.

For your reference see my post…again at
forums.catholic-questions.org/showpost.php?p=14096657&postcount=53

quran.com/4/157

And [for] their saying, “Indeed, we have killed the Messiah, Jesus, the son of Mary, the messenger of Allah .” And they did not kill him, nor did they crucifyhim; but [another] was made to resemble him to them. And indeed, those who differ over it are in doubt about it. They have no knowledge of it except the following of assumption. And they did not kill him, for certain.

It clearly states " but [another] was made to resemble him to them" You believe this translation is in question. How so?

Something I’ll make a point on is the word “crucify”. The word crucify means “to but someone to death”. On the above verse it says “nor did they crucify him”. Meaning( in the quran ) that they did not but Jesus to death.
An example of the word “crucify” was used in the sentencing of Jesus when the crowd shouted “crucify him” meaning… but him to death.

“And they did not kill him, nor did they crucify him”
Should read …“they did not kill him (Jesus) nor did they put him (Jesus) to death.”

Also you’ll notice the word “but” ( used to introduce something contrasting with what has already been mentioned.).
another] was made to resemble him to them. This means someone else was made to “resemble” Jesus.
Two clear wording that the quranic version of the crucifixion of Jesus did not take place.

The belief the Jesus’ Resurrection was spiritual would be wrong because the Gospels would of ended at the Crucifixion. If the Resurrection was spiritual why was the tomb of Jesus empty on the third day. The Road to Emmaus appearance is one of the early resurrection appearances of Jesus after his crucifixion. Also John 20:27
"Then he said to Thomas, “Put your finger here and see my hands, and bring your hand and put it into my side, and do not be unbelieving, but believe.”

From the Christian point of view of the Crucifixion and the Resurrection was seen by eye witnesses accounts before,during and after the Crucifixion/Resurrection of the body of Jesus.

A muslim and bahai point of view is from 600+ to 1800+ years after the fact.

 

[JimmyDFG]

There is also very lovely way this is confirmed by the Gospel of Luke…

The last words of Jesus on the cross according to the Gospel of Luke translated in the Jerusalem Bible read:

…and when Jesus had cried out in a loud voice, He said, "Father, into Your hands I commit my Spirit" with these words he breathed His last.

~ Luke 22:46

So Jesus committed His Spirit to God and the Qur’an says **Allah raised him up unto Himself.

**

Don’t forget the second last words Jesus spoke “it is finished,” By saying this Jesus was saying that the work of salvation for us, has been completed. When Jesus made this statement, He was saying to us all, that everything needed for our salvation has been accomplished and payed for. Our sin debt has been payed for, Roman 6:23. Because God has finished the work of salvation for us He can now offer salvation to us as a free gift.

When Jesus said, “It is finished,” He meant it. He actually meant what He said. There is no need for any group or any individual to add or detract from Christ’s words or finished work.
Why the need to presume to finish the work that Christ has already finished.