If the Qur'an is wrong, why be Muslim?

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Regardless this would be a form of deceit on allahs part. If you were to lead people to believe something else than what actually happen is deceit. It seems it has to do with “disbelief” as it mentions through 4:150-4:156 So allah made “it appeared to them that they had killed the Messiah” This is deceit.

What the quran states in 4:157 would have no needing to what Jesus said in Matthew 5:11 “Blessed are you when they insult you and persecute you and utter every kind of evil against you [falsely] because of me”

In the Gospels of Matthew 8:26 Jesus says …“O you of little faith…” and in John 8:24 Jesus gives a warning about disbelief " For if you do not believe that I AM, you will die in your sins.” He warned us about disbelief and of “Little faith” …and then we have allah making things “appear” that they killed Jesus. Why would allah do such a thing…because Jesus said himself in Matthew 5:45 “… heavenly Father, for he makes his sun rise on the bad and the good, and causes rain to fall on the just and the unjust.”
Qur’an 3:54—And they (the unbelievers) planned to deceive, and Allah planned to deceive (the unbelievers), and Allah is the best of deceivers.

No need then for Muslims to be suspicious of Allah, because it seems deceit is understood to be necessary in some cases.
 
Qur’an 3:54—And they (the unbelievers) planned to deceive, and Allah planned to deceive (the unbelievers), and Allah is the best of deceivers.

No need then for Muslims to be suspicious of Allah, because it seems deceit is understood to be necessary in some cases.
I find it very disappointing that this Allah doesn’t tell Muslims to pray and discern whether there is deceit. This seems more man made than Godly. More frustration than charity.

MJ
 
Regardless this would be a form of deceit on allahs part. If you were to lead people to believe something else than what actually happen is deceit. It seems it has to do with “disbelief” as it mentions through 4:150-4:156 So allah made “it appeared to them that they had killed the Messiah” This is deceit.

What the quran states in 4:157 would have no needing to what Jesus said in Matthew 5:11 “Blessed are you when they insult you and persecute you and utter every kind of evil against you [falsely] because of me”

In the Gospels of Matthew 8:26 Jesus says …“O you of little faith…” and in John 8:24 Jesus gives a warning about disbelief " For if you do not believe that I AM, you will die in your sins.” He warned us about disbelief and of “Little faith” …and then we have allah making things “appear” that they killed Jesus. Why would allah do such a thing…because Jesus said himself in Matthew 5:45 “… heavenly Father, for he makes his sun rise on the bad and the good, and causes rain to fall on the just and the unjust.”
Again lack of prayer in the Quran.

Jesus said pray and why is this going unheeded?

MJ
 
God did not say Jesus was a humanly god but some people thought in that way. Did God force these people? No. And Jesus lived enough to explain that He was not crucified indeed. And it is very likely Jesus conveyed that but people took on issue according to their point of view. Did God force or deceive people? No. Some evil people set a trap for Jesus and God did frustrate that plot by making someone else to look like Jesus. Was that a deception for followers? No. If people did not record what exactly their prophet explained so that is their problem.

That issue is so expressed to support some doctrines which made up by people but not from scripture.
You say God saved his prophet Jesus from crucifixion by substituting someone else in his place and taking Jesus to heaven? Christians believe Jesus accomplished his Father’s will by being handed over to crucifixion and death for the forgiveness of the sin of all mankind from beginning to end. If the real Jesus didn’t die as you say, then we are all still dead in our sins and cannot inherit the eternal kingdom of God. 1 Cor. 15:14-17, “And if Christ has not been raised from the dead, our preaching is worthless, and so is your faith, and you are still in your sins.”

Without Christ’s sacrifice, where is there forgiveness of sin? How are we to gain eternal life?
 
My dear JMM1957,

If you sincerely believe what you wrote then how do you account for the following verses in the Gospel of Luke:

*1:19 And the angel answering said unto him, I am Gabriel, that stand in the presence of God; and am sent to speak unto thee, and to shew thee these glad tidings.

and1:26 And in the sixth month the angel Gabriel was sent from God unto a city of Galilee, named Nazareth, 1:27 To a virgin espoused to a man whose name was Joseph, of the house of David; and the virgin’s name was Mary.

Gabriel is viewed as a personification of the Holy Spirit:

“The angel Gabriel, the Holy Spirit, is the highest of all the angels. It is his duty to write down the decrees of God; through him the Koran was revealed to Mahommad, and it is he who, hovering above the throne of God, shelters it with his wings. Hafiz therefore claims for Shiraz the protection of him who is guardian of the highest place in heaven.”
Code:
(Islamic Miscellaneous, Teachings of Hafiz (G. L. Bell tr))
Thus have we sent the Spirit (Gabriel) to thee with a revelation, by our
command. Thou knowest not, ere this, what “the Book” was, or what the faith.
But we have ordained it for a light: by it will we guide whom we please of our
servants. And thou shalt surely guide into the right way,
Code:
(The Qur'an (Rodwell tr), Sura  42:51 - Counsel)
So the angel Gabriel is a “personification” of the Holy Spirit

In the Gospel of Mark the personification is a “dove”:

1:10 And straightway coming up out of the water, he saw the heavens opened, and the Spirit like a dove descending upon him: 1:11 And there came a voice from heaven, saying, Thou art my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased.
If the holy sprit in islam is gabriel why did the angel ( gabriel/holy spirit )caught muhammad (forcefully) and pressed him so hard that he could not bear itany more?

Where as in Luke 1:13 But the angel said to him, “Do not be afraid, Zechariah, because your prayer has been heard…"

and…

1:19 And the angel said to him in reply, “I am Gabriel, who stand before God. I was sent to speak to you and to announce to you this good news"

( Notice that Gabriel announces good news …and in the quran gabriel demands muhammad to read )

And with Mary in…

John 1:26 In the sixth month, the angel Gabriel was sent from God to a town of Galilee called Nazareth,

John 1:30 "Then the angel said to her, “Do not be afraid, Mary, for you have found favor with God.

Heres what Gabriel said of the Holy Spirit in John 1:35
And the angel said to her in reply, “The holy Spirit will come upon you, and the power of the Most High will overshadow you. Therefore the child to be born will be called holy, the Son of God"

Notice that Gabriel does not identify himself as the Holy Spirit. For it does not say “I will come upon you, and the power of the Most High will overshadow you…”

I notice what you wrote …“The angel Gabriel, the holy spirit, is the highest of all the angels. It is his duty to write down the decrees of God; through him the koran was revealed to mahommad,”

It should be noted that in Catholic literature that place Michael the archangel over all the angels; they say he is called “archangel” because he is the prince of the other angels.
Michael the Archangel, whose name means, “one who is like God,” led the army of angels who cast Satan and the rebellious angels into Hell; at the end of time, he will wield the sword of justice to separate the righteous from the evil (cf. Revelation 12:7ff).
 
If the holy sprit in islam is gabriel why did the angel ( gabriel/holy spirit )caught muhammad (forcefully) and pressed him so hard that he could not bear itany more?

Where as in Luke 1:13 But the angel said to him, “Do not be afraid, Zechariah, because your prayer has been heard…"

and…

1:19 And the angel said to him in reply, “I am Gabriel, who stand before God. I was sent to speak to you and to announce to you this good news"

( Notice that Gabriel announces good news …and in the quran gabriel demands muhammad to read )

And with Mary in…

John 1:26 In the sixth month, the angel Gabriel was sent from God to a town of Galilee called Nazareth,

John 1:30 "Then the angel said to her, “Do not be afraid, Mary, for you have found favor with God.

Heres what Gabriel said of the Holy Spirit in John 1:35
And the angel said to her in reply, “The holy Spirit will come upon you, and the power of the Most High will overshadow you. Therefore the child to be born will be called holy, the Son of God"

Notice that Gabriel does not identify himself as the Holy Spirit. For it does not say “I will come upon you, and the power of the Most High will overshadow you…”

I notice what you wrote …“The angel Gabriel, the holy spirit, is the highest of all the angels. It is his duty to write down the decrees of God; through him the koran was revealed to mahommad,”

It should be noted that in Catholic literature that place Michael the archangel over all the angels; they say he is called “archangel” because he is the prince of the other angels.
Michael the Archangel, whose name means, “one who is like God,” led the army of angels who cast Satan and the rebellious angels into Hell; at the end of time, he will wield the sword of justice to separate the righteous from the evil (cf. Revelation 12:7ff).
Luke 1:14 He will be a joy and delight to you, and many will rejoice because of his birth, 15 for he will be great in the sight of the Lord. He is never to take wine or other fermented drink, and **he will be filled with the Holy Spirit **even before he is born.

How can Gabriel be the Holy Spirit when John the Baptist is filled with the Holy Spirit before he is born? :confused:

:cool:

MJ
 
If Jesus knew what would happen so He should not had emptied Himself absolutely! Jesus made many prophecies and performed many miracles so that prove that He was not actually emptied. If Jesus was God and He was aware of that so why did He go to Sajdah(kneeled down)? And İf He went to crucifixion by His will so why Jesus was so willing to be saved? And if Jesus is god so why He worshiped God(kneeled down and prayed) ? Do God worship God?

Do you not see the conflictions?

Jesus did not go on crucifixion so He would not say that " I escaped from crucifixion"!
Wheh Jesus prayed Father for something so Father was used to accept that. Jesus prayed for salvation from crucifixion so Father would accept, would not?
You say that you believe in what is said in the Bible but I believe you fail to understand its meaning…
Jesus mentions that the
John 2:19Jesus answered and said to them,“Destroy this temple and in three days I will raise it up.”
20 The Jews said, “This temple has been under construction for forty-six years,* and you will raise it up in three days?”
21 But he was speaking about the temple of his body.

Psalms 8:5 What is man that you are mindful of him,
and a son of man that you care for him?
6Yet you have made him little less than a god,
crowned him with glory and honor.

In Hebrews 2:9 & 17-18
9 but we do see Jesus “crowned with glory and honor” because he suffered death, he who “for a little while” was made “lower than the angels,” that by the grace of God he might taste death for everyone

17 therefore, he had to become like his brothers in every way, that he might be a merciful and faithful high priest before God to expiate the sins of the people.
18 Because he himself was tested through what he suffered, he is able to help those who are being tested.

Also, by taking upon Himself sinless flesh in the Incarnation Jesus was made" lower than the angels,” Jesus “emptied himself,taking the form of a slave,coming in human likeness; and found human in appearance” when He took on human flesh (Philippians 2:7). God placed Him(Jesus) in subjection to the Law (Galatians 4:4). "Just so, the Son of Man did not come to be served but to serve and to give his life as a ransom for many.” (Matthew 20:28).

As a man and as a Jew, Jesus was in a humbled state, under the Law, and lower than the angels. As a result of these conditions, Jesus had to operate in agreement with His humbled condition; that is, He had to act as a man–completely as a man who was under the Law of God.

But hasantas, one piece of information you might be missing and that is while Jesus was in the garden of Gethsemane Luke 22:43
“And to strengthen him an angel from heaven appeared to him.”
 
Jimmy wrote above in post regarding an angel wrestling with the Prophet:

*“If the holy sprit in islam is gabriel why did the angel ( gabriel/holy spirit )caught muhammad (forcefully) and pressed him so hard that he could not bear itany more?”

*Have you forgotten when there was an all night wresting with Jacob?
consider Bukhari Hadith attributed to Aisha where it says:

*The Prophet added, *

*"The angel caught me (forcefully) and pressed me so hard that I could not bear it any more. He then released me and again asked me to read and I replied, ‘I do not know how to read.’ *

Thereupon he caught me again and pressed me a second time till I could not bear it any more.

Sahih Bukhari : Read, Study, Search Online

Compare with:

*And Jacob was left alone; and there wrestled a man with him until the breaking of the day. And when he saw that he prevailed not against him, he touched the hollow of his thigh; and the hollow of Jacob’s thigh was out of joint, as he wrestled with him… *

Genesis 32:24-28

This “man” turns out is an angel:


4He struggled with the angel and overcame him;
he wept and begged for his favor.
He found him at Bethel
and talked with him there—


*Hosea 12:4

Jimmy further wrote:
*Regardless this would be a form of deceit on allahs part. If you were to lead people to believe something else than what actually happen is deceit. It seems it has to do with “disbelief” as it mentions through 4:150-4:156 So allah made “it appeared to them that they had killed the Messiah” This is deceit.

*The “deceit” you describe is on those who imagined that they “killed” the Messiah.
  1. But because of their breach of their Covenant, We cursed them, and made their hearts grow hard: they change the words from their (right) places and forget a good part of the Message that was sent them, nor wilt thou cease to find them, barring a few, ever bent on (new) deceits: but forgive them and overlook (their misdeeds): for Allah loveth those who are kind.

    (The Qur’an (Yusuf Ali tr), Surah 5)
 
The “deceit” you describe is on those who imagined that they “killed” the Messiah.
Tell me for what purpose would God need to deceive them into believing they killed the Messiah?

If you believe that the Old Testament scriptures prophesied about the coming of Muhammad as the final greatest prophet, then why did Muhammad not suffer and die as the scriptures prophesied? Only Jesus fulfilled thsoe prophesies completely.
 
Jimmy wrote above in post regarding an angel wrestling with the Prophet:

"If the holy sprit in islam is gabriel why did the angel ( gabriel/holy spirit )caught muhammad (forcefully) and pressed him so hard that he could not bear itany more?"

Have you forgotten when there was an all night wresting with Jacob?
consider Bukhari Hadith attributed to Aisha where it says:

*The Prophet added, *

*"The angel caught me (forcefully) and pressed me so hard that I could not bear it any more. He then released me and again asked me to read and I replied, ‘I do not know how to read.’ *

Thereupon he caught me again and pressed me a second time till I could not bear it any more.

Sahih Bukhari : Read, Study, Search Online

Compare with:

*And Jacob was left alone; and there wrestled a man with him until the breaking of the day. And when he saw that he prevailed not against him, he touched the hollow of his thigh; and the hollow of Jacob’s thigh was out of joint, as he wrestled with him… *

Genesis 32:24-28

This “man” turns out is an angel:


4He struggled with the angel and overcame him;
he wept and begged for his favor.
He found him at Bethel
and talked with him there—


*Hosea 12:4
*

“Jimmy wrote above in post regarding an angel wrestling with the Prophet:”

I’ve said nothing about “wrestling with the prophet”. Wrestling would be when two people engage in a struggle.
What we have in the quran is that the angel caught muhammad (forcefully) and pressed him so hard that he could not bear it any more. Not once but three times without any resistance from muhammad.
Furthermore let us examine
Ibn Ishaq, p. 106—[Muhammad said,] “So I read it, and he departed from me. And I awoke from my sleep, and it was as though these words were written on my heart. (T. Now none of God’s creatures was more hateful to me than an (ecstatic) poet or a man possessed: I could not even look at them. I thought, Woe is me poet or possessed—Never shall Quraysh say this of me! I will go to the top of the mountain and throw myself down that I may kill myself and gain rest. So I went forth to do so and then) when I was midway on the mountain, I heard a voice from heaven saying, “O Muhammad! thou art the apostle of God and I am Gabriel.”

According to Ibn Ishaq’s Sirat Rasul Allah (our earliest detailed biographical record on the life of Muhammad), the prophet of islam attempted to kill himself because he believed he was possessed by an evil spirit.

Why would allah lead someone to believe this right up until he wanted to kill himself?

Let us go now to Jacob …wrestling with the angel is also symbolic , in my opinion
Genesis 32:25
Jacob was left there alone. Then a man( angel) wrestled with him until the break of dawn.

Notice that the Angel engages in a wrestle with Jacob that lasted all night or until day break. This would mean both took part in the struggle.

Jacob wasn’t exactly “good” and in The Book of Genesis speaks of the relationship between Jacob and Esau, focusing on Esau’s loss of his birthright because of Jacob’s deception. Also his marriage to Leah when he loved Rachel more, and Leah felt hated.
Some would consider him to be ruthless. Also maybe s con artist, a liar, and a manipulator.
When he was alone in the desert wilderness, facing sure death and physically exhausted also he’s powerless to control his fate. The night an angel visited Jacob and they wrestled throughout the night until daybreak, at which point the angel “struck Jacob’s hip at its socket, so that Jacob’s socket was dislocated as he wrestled with him”(32-26). It was by then Jacob knew what had happened:“… I have seen God face to face,” he said, “yet my life has been spared."(32:31) . Jacob received a new name, Israel, "Who prevails with God.” What is most important occurs at the conclusion of that struggle. We read that Israel/Jacob was “blessed” (32:20).

In the end, Jacob does what we all must do. He confronts his failures, his weaknesses, his sins, all the things that are hurting him . . . and faces God. Jacob wrestled with God all night. It was an exhausting struggle that left him crippled. It was only after he came to grips with God and ceased his struggling, realizing that he could not go on without Him, that he received God’s blessing (Genesis 32:29).
 
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arthra:
Jimmy further wrote:*
*Regardless this would be a form of deceit on allahs part. If you were to lead people to believe something else than what actually happen is deceit. It seems it has to do with “disbelief” as it mentions through 4:150-4:156 So allah made “it appeared to them that they had killed the Messiah” This is deceit.

*The “deceit” you describe is on those who imagined that they “killed” the Messiah.
  1. But because of their breach of their Covenant, We cursed them, and made their hearts grow hard: they change the words from their (right) places and forget a good part of the Message that was sent them, nor wilt thou cease to find them, barring a few, ever bent on (new) deceits: but forgive them and overlook (their misdeeds): for Allah loveth those who are kind.

    (The Qur’an (Yusuf Ali tr), Surah 5)
“The “deceit” you describe is on those who imagined that they “killed” the Messiah.”

Wouldn’t this still be “deceit” , yes or no? If you made those who “imagined” that they “killed the Messiah” when it did not happen, what is it called? A white deception? ( in reference to a "white lie).

Also in quran 4:157 “…those who differ over it are in doubt about it. They have no knowledge of it except the following of assumption…” Is it allah’s will to deceive all of Christianity or does he simply don’t care we are in doubt?
If those people are “cursed” because of changing the words, what does that
make those that believe in the changed words( Christians )?
Its sounds like there is no redemption for those who believe in the cursed ones…and that allah loves the muslim that “forgives them and overlook (their misdeeds): for Allah loveth those who are kind.”
 
I understand the point of this forum is to discuss things, but this discussion seems pointless to me.

If I am a Muslim, I believe the Qur’an is the direct word of God. I believe that previous scriptures (the Old and New Testament) contain some truths, but that they have been corrupted. Therefore, if anyone quotes anything from the Old or New Testament that I disagree with, I–as a Muslim–can simply say “That passage has been corrupted” or “Muslims interpret it a different way.”

If I am a Christian, I believe Muhammad was simply an Arab war lord, who may or may not have believed he was a prophet. But I don’t believe the Qur’an is in any way the word of God–it is simply Muhammad’s sayings. Some more modern interpretations would even question that in many cases. So a Muslim (or Baha’i) who supports a statement by saying it’s in the Qur’an so it must be true is making a meaningless statement to a Christian. The Qur’an has no authority whatsoever to a Christian.

In light of the initial premises on both sides, this discussion seems futile. Anything anyone on one side can introduce as evidence is immediately dismissed as untrue by the other side. It’s not a case of logic, it’s a case of belief.
 
I understand the point of this forum is to discuss things, but this discussion seems pointless to me.

If I am a Muslim, I believe the Qur’an is the direct word of God. I believe that previous scriptures (the Old and New Testament) contain some truths, but that they have been corrupted. Therefore, if anyone quotes anything from the Old or New Testament that I disagree with, I–as a Muslim–can simply say “That passage has been corrupted” or “Muslims interpret it a different way.”

If I am a Christian, I believe Muhammad was simply an Arab war lord, who may or may not have believed he was a prophet. But I don’t believe the Qur’an is in any way the word of God–it is simply Muhammad’s sayings. Some more modern interpretations would even question that in many cases. So a Muslim (or Baha’i) who supports a statement by saying it’s in the Qur’an so it must be true is making a meaningless statement to a Christian. The Qur’an has no authority whatsoever to a Christian.

In light of the initial premises on both sides, this discussion seems futile. Anything anyone on one side can introduce as evidence is immediately dismissed as untrue by the other side. It’s not a case of logic, it’s a case of belief.
My opinion is that it is difficult to find common ground in a discussion between two faiths that have a radically different idea of the nature of God, even though both claim to believe in one God who created the universe and everything contained in it. For the Muslims, rejecting the Trinitarian view of God that Christianity holds, causes them to have a totally different understanding of the salvation story.That being said, I still don’t think we should ever abandon dialog with any religious faith different than ours as long as they are willing to discuss it. I always hold out some hope for a coming together between all faiths.
 
I understand the point of this forum is to discuss things, but this discussion seems pointless to me.

If I am a Muslim, I believe the Qur’an is the direct word of God. I believe that previous scriptures (the Old and New Testament) contain some truths, but that they have been corrupted. Therefore, if anyone quotes anything from the Old or New Testament that I disagree with, I–as a Muslim–can simply say “That passage has been corrupted” or “Muslims interpret it a different way.”

If I am a Christian, I believe Muhammad was simply an Arab war lord, who may or may not have believed he was a prophet. But I don’t believe the Qur’an is in any way the word of God–it is simply Muhammad’s sayings. Some more modern interpretations would even question that in many cases. So a Muslim (or Baha’i) who supports a statement by saying it’s in the Qur’an so it must be true is making a meaningless statement to a Christian. The Qur’an has no authority whatsoever to a Christian.

In light of the initial premises on both sides, this discussion seems futile. Anything anyone on one side can introduce as evidence is immediately dismissed as untrue by the other side. It’s not a case of logic, it’s a case of belief.
Have you gone through this thread from the start ?

MJ
 
Have you gone through this thread from the start ?

MJ
Absolutely. A couple times. Mind boggling. I can’t think of a good analogy. Perhaps two people, one of whom is color blind, arguing over colors? This is not “dialog,” this is futility.
 
Absolutely. A couple times. Mind boggling. I can’t think of a good analogy. Perhaps two people, one of whom is color blind, arguing over colors? This is not “dialog,” this is futility.
It is not futile. Evangelizing never goes to waste. 😃

MJ
 
Absolutely. A couple times. Mind boggling. I can’t think of a good analogy. Perhaps two people, one of whom is color blind, arguing over colors? This is not “dialog,” this is futility.
Faith is a gift of the Holy Spirit.
 
Absolutely. A couple times. Mind boggling. I can’t think of a good analogy. Perhaps two people, one of whom is color blind, arguing over colors? This is not “dialog,” this is futility.
Hey, here’s an idea!
If its so futile, don’t participate.
:rolleyes:
 
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