If the Qur'an is wrong, why be Muslim?

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JMM1957 said:
hasantas, what was Jesus asking Thomas to believe here in this verse? If an impostor truly died on the cross as you believe, and not the real Jesus, then who was it that was appearing to Thomas and the other disciples? So you believe the following?
  1. The real Jesus was saved and taken to heaven by God and was not crucified to death
  2. An impostor who looked like Jesus died on the cross in the place of the real Jesus, and that person was buried and remained dead.
  3. A third person who also looked like Jesus but never died, appeared to the disciples
The ascension of Jesus was witnessed by the disciples (Luke 24:50-53) Who do you believe was taken up to heaven here?

Please correct me if I misunderstand.
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There are two men Jesus and other who got crucified. Jesus disappeared(perhaps He was taken by angels) for a while and after crucifixion He showed Himself to disciples. The ascension was later.
 
hasantas said:
There are two men Jesus and other who got crucified. Jesus disappeared(perhaps He was taken by angels) for a while and after crucifixion He showed Himself to disciples. The ascension was later.
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There were two men with Jesus you say? Where in the Quran please. Kindly quote it.

Peace be with you.

MJ
 
hasantas said:
There are two men Jesus and other who got crucified. Jesus disappeared(perhaps He was taken by angels) for a while and after crucifixion He showed Himself to disciples. The ascension was later.
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If Jesus was never crucified, then how did he appear suddenly (miraculously) through locked doors to the disciples? A mere human body could not do that, but a glorified, resurrected body could.
 
Thorolfr said:
Muslims believe that it was made to seem that Jesus was crucified, i.e. that perhaps someone else was crucified in his place that everyone thought was Jesus. But no one can disprove the Muslim version, even historians (atheist or not), unless we can examine the body that was crucified.
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Since the Muslim version was written about 600 years after the fact (what do you know about events that took place in the 1500’s?) it is hardly worthy of discussion.

If the story was dictated by God, then the Koran is correct and we are all fools.
The other possibility is that the Koranic story was simply made up to challenge the prevailing Christianity in the struggle for territory and supremacy.

I don’t see another explanation and it is up to us to decide if we BELIEVE in the God of the Bible or the Koran.
Amen.
 
JimmyDFG said:
You say that you believe in what is said in the Bible but I believe you fail to understand its meaning…
Jesus mentions that the
John 2:19Jesus answered and said to them,“Destroy this temple and in three days I will raise it up.”
20 The Jews said, “This temple has been under construction for forty-six years,* and you will raise it up in three days?”
21 But he was speaking about the temple of his body.

Psalms 8:5 What is man that you are mindful of him,
and a son of man that you care for him?
6Yet you have made him little less than a god,
crowned him with glory and honor.

In Hebrews 2:9 & 17-18
9 but we do see Jesus “crowned with glory and honor” because he suffered death, he who “for a little while” was made “lower than the angels,” that by the grace of God he might taste death for everyone

17 therefore, he had to become like his brothers in every way, that he might be a merciful and faithful high priest before God to expiate the sins of the people.
18 Because he himself was tested through what he suffered, he is able to help those who are being tested.

Also, by taking upon Himself sinless flesh in the Incarnation Jesus was made" lower than the angels,” Jesus “emptied himself,taking the form of a slave,coming in human likeness; and found human in appearance” when He took on human flesh (Philippians 2:7). God placed Him(Jesus) in subjection to the Law (Galatians 4:4). "Just so, the Son of Man did not come to be served but to serve and to give his life as a ransom for many.” (Matthew 20:28).

As a man and as a Jew, Jesus was in a humbled state, under the Law, and lower than the angels. As a result of these conditions, Jesus had to operate in agreement with His humbled condition; that is, He had to act as a man–completely as a man who was under the Law of God.

But hasantas, one piece of information you might be missing and that is while Jesus was in the garden of Gethsemane Luke 22:43
“And to strengthen him an angel from heaven appeared to him.”
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Is there any remark that imply Jesus being more than a prophet? No. Jesus was just a human and sometimes performed some miracles and all was that. Beyond of that? We have no any evidence or reason to consider it but just some conjectures! It is why people try to explain their conjectures through mysteries.

We as Muslims obey and submit to evidences and we are not follower of conjectures.

God is God in every circumstance and nothing can change that neither time nor matterial. If thinking that God is some part of material or time but that make God mortal. It is non sense to claim/ask that can not God incarnate or anything He wish? Because God is very very very but very above and beyond of time and material. God yet create time and material so will God create some part of Himself to be incarnated? Eternity does not transform to mortality.

You assume as if God ceased eternal attributes of Himself while He was Jesus! Is there any time in which God is not God any more? Do you mean that eternity have degrees?

If a human substance cannot consider himself as more than a human so he is just a human.

I think it is why Christians have so many atheists and materialists because they make God material.
 
MartinJordan said:
There were two men with Jesus you say? Where in the Quran please. Kindly quote it.

Peace be with you.

MJ
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Jesus and other man so with Jesus two. Two include Jesus. Jesus and the other. We have no clear knowledge about other before and after crucifixion.
 
JMM1957 said:
Yes hasantas, they were certainly shocked, and startled, and amazed, and then they realized that everything Jesus told them beforehand had come true. For the disciples including Thomas (John 20:20, John 20:27), seeing the wounds of Jesus caused them to believe it was Him who had been raised from the dead. Seeing the wounds in the hands, feet and side was significant. Having an impostor appear showing no wounds…what would that have accomplished?
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Did Thomas or Jesus say about wounds? No. But just Thomas had thought that there should have been wounds. There were no wounds so Jesus struggled too much to persuade Thomas.
 
JMM1957 said:
If Jesus was never crucified, then how did he appear suddenly (miraculously) through locked doors to the disciples? A mere human body could not do that, but a glorified, resurrected body could.
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Jesus was a prophet so it was usual for Jesus to perform such things. Jesus was ascended and I think that is more amazing. Jesus was glorified from birth.
 
But there is not something obviously about wounds. If there should be wounds so I think writers would mention that very strongly.
 
JMM1957 said:
You say God saved his prophet Jesus from crucifixion by substituting someone else in his place and taking Jesus to heaven? Christians believe Jesus accomplished his Father’s will by being handed over to crucifixion and death for the forgiveness of the sin of all mankind from beginning to end. If the real Jesus didn’t die as you say, then we are all still dead in our sins and cannot inherit the eternal kingdom of God. 1 Cor. 15:14-17, “And if Christ has not been raised from the dead, our preaching is worthless, and so is your faith, and you are still in your sins.”

Without Christ’s sacrifice, where is there forgiveness of sin? How are we to gain eternal life?
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That is your doctrine but it is not fact. Can you reason that from Bible? We regard Bible of Christians as Gospels but not other writings. Because other writings are not revelation to establish faith unto.
 
If this thread is about the Koran, why is the entire discussion centered on the Bible?
 
hasantas said:
That is your doctrine but it is not fact. Can you reason that from Bible? We regard Bible of Christians as Gospels but not other writings. Because other writings are not revelation to establish faith unto.
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hasantas,do you agree then that the OT and NT of the Christian Bible are revelation from God and** cannot be disputed **as truth? Just want to make sure this is what you are saying, so that we can move forward in the discussion effectively.
 
hasantas said:
Did Thomas or Jesus say about wounds? No. But just Thomas had thought that there should have been wounds. There were no wounds so Jesus struggled too much to persuade Thomas.
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If you believe that the Bible is truth, then read this from Gospel of Luke chapter 24, this passage talks about Jesus appearance to his disciples “after” his resurrection.

36 They were still talking about all this when he himself stood among them and said to them, ‘Peace be with you!’

37 In a state of alarm and fright, they thought they were seeing a ghost.

38 But he said, 'Why are you so agitated, and why are these doubts stirring in your hearts?

39 See by my hands and my feet that it is I myself. Touch me and see for yourselves; a ghost has no flesh and bones as you can see I have.’

40 And as he said this he showed them his hands and his feet.

41 Their joy was so great that they still could not believe it, as they were dumbfounded; so he said to them, ‘Have you anything here to eat?’

The disciples were full of joy (verse 41) in that they recognized Jesus by seeing his** hands and feet**. Why do verses 39 and 40 keep referring to his** hands and feet**, and not any other particular part of his body. It was because Jesus was crucified by nailing him, hands and feet, to the cross. This is how the disciples recognized that it was the real Jesus, not some imposter, they knew that the real Jesus who was buried in the tomb had nail holes in his hands and feet and a spear hole in his side. If Jesus would have appeared not having any wounds, they would not have been convinced it was him. The purpose of Jesus appearing many times to many witnesses after his resurrection was to remove doubt that it was truly him who died and rose from the dead, so they would have faith in him as the true Messiah who fulfilled completely the Biblical prophesies.
 
hasantas said:
Is there any remark that imply Jesus being more than a prophet? No. Jesus was just a human and sometimes performed some miracles and all was that. Beyond of that? We have no any evidence or reason to consider it but just some conjectures! It is why people try to explain their conjectures through mysteries.

We as Muslims obey and submit to evidences and we are not follower of conjectures.

God is God in every circumstance and nothing can change that neither time nor matterial. If thinking that God is some part of material or time but that make God mortal. It is non sense to claim/ask that can not God incarnate or anything He wish? Because God is very very very but very above and beyond of time and material. God yet create time and material so will God create some part of Himself to be incarnated? Eternity does not transform to mortality.

You assume as if God ceased eternal attributes of Himself while He was Jesus! Is there any time in which God is not God any more? Do you mean that eternity have degrees?

If a human substance cannot consider himself as more than a human so he is just a human.

I think it is why Christians have so many atheists and materialists because they make God material.
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We’ve been over this before hasantas, It seems you’re only here to try and spread the word that’s in the Quran.

“Is there any remark that imply Jesus being more than a prophet? No”
You’re wrong on this and I’ll prove it…

Matthew 3:17
"And a voice came from the heavens, saying, “This is my beloved Son, with whom I am well pleased.”
 
JimmyDFG said:
We’ve been over this before hasantas, It seems you’re only here to try and spread the word that’s in the Quran.

“Is there any remark that imply Jesus being more than a prophet? No”
You’re wrong on this and I’ll prove it…

Matthew 3:17
"And a voice came from the heavens, saying, “This is my beloved Son, with whom I am well pleased.”
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The Father will Glorify the Son. Case closed.😃

MJ
 
hasantas said:
**Is there any remark that imply Jesus being more than a prophet? **No. Jesus was just a human and sometimes performed some miracles and all was that. Beyond of that? We have no any evidence or reason to consider it but just some conjectures! It is why people try to explain their conjectures through mysteries.

We as Muslims obey and submit to evidences and we are not follower of conjectures.

God is God in every circumstance and nothing can change that neither time nor matterial. If thinking that God is some part of material or time but that make God mortal. It is non sense to claim/ask that can not God incarnate or anything He wish? Because God is very very very but very above and beyond of time and material. God yet create time and material so will God create some part of Himself to be incarnated? Eternity does not transform to mortality.

You assume as if God ceased eternal attributes of Himself while He was Jesus! Is there any time in which God is not God any more? Do you mean that eternity have degrees?

If a human substance cannot consider himself as more than a human so he is just a human.

I think it is why Christians have so many atheists and materialists because they make God material.
Click to expand...
As John’s disciples were leaving, Jesus began to speak to the crowd about John:
"What did you go out into the desert to see? A reed swayed by the wind? If not, what did you go out to see? A man dressed in fine clothes? No, those who wear fine clothes are in kings’ palaces.
Then what did you go out to see? A prophet? Yes, I tell you, and more than a prophet. This is the one about whom it is written: “I will send my messenger ahead of you, who will prepare your way before you.” (Mathew 11:7-10)

Jesus say here that John the Baptist was “more than a prophet”, so if John was that great of a man, how much greater is Jesus then? John was sent to prepare the way for Jesus coming, someone greater than he. If you accept the Bible as truth as you have said multiple times, then how do you not understand that Jesus is more than a prophet? How can someone who is more than a prophet himself (John) prepare the way for someone who is any less than a prophet? He can’t.
 
Just to add to my last post above:

John 1: 26-27

26“I baptize with water,” John replied, “but among you stands One you do not know. 27He is the One who comes after me, the straps of whose sandals” I am not worthy to untie."

Again, here John (someone greater than a prophet himself) is saying Jesus is greater than he.
 
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