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guanophore
Guest
This post was taken from another thread where it was off topic.
If there apostolic succession why is it not mentioned in the scriptures?
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Eileen_T
Guest
Acts 1:21-26 shows the election of Matthias in the upper room, by the disciples, under the leadership of Peter.
Later, Paul’s epistles show how he appointed certain men such as Timothy, and “laid hands on him”, which was the ministerial priesthood.
Also…
Later, Paul’s epistles show how he appointed certain men such as Timothy, and “laid hands on him”, which was the ministerial priesthood.
Also…
catholic.com/library/Apostolic_Succession.asp
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fellowChristian
Guest
APOSTOLIC AUTHORITY AND SUCCESSION
Old Testament
**Exodus 18:25 -26 **
25Moses chose able men out of all Israel and made them heads over the people, leaders of thousands, of hundreds, of fifties and of tens.
26They judged the people at all times; the difficult dispute they would bring to Moses, but every minor dispute they themselves would judge.
**
Exodus 40:15 **
15and you shall anoint them even as you have anointed their father, that they may minister as priests to Me; and their anointing will qualify them for a perpetual priesthood throughout their generations."
New Testament
**1 Timothy 4:14 **
14 Do not neglect the spiritual gift within you, which was bestowed on you through prophetic utterance with the laying on of hands by the presbytery.
1 Timothy 5:22
22 Do not lay hands upon anyone too hastily and thereby share responsibility for the sins of others; keep yourself free from sin.
To find more in Scripture:
scripturecatholic.com/apostolic_succession.html
Old Testament
**Exodus 18:25 -26 **
25Moses chose able men out of all Israel and made them heads over the people, leaders of thousands, of hundreds, of fifties and of tens.
26They judged the people at all times; the difficult dispute they would bring to Moses, but every minor dispute they themselves would judge.
**
Exodus 40:15 **
15and you shall anoint them even as you have anointed their father, that they may minister as priests to Me; and their anointing will qualify them for a perpetual priesthood throughout their generations."
New Testament
**1 Timothy 4:14 **
14 Do not neglect the spiritual gift within you, which was bestowed on you through prophetic utterance with the laying on of hands by the presbytery.
1 Timothy 5:22
22 Do not lay hands upon anyone too hastily and thereby share responsibility for the sins of others; keep yourself free from sin.
To find more in Scripture:
scripturecatholic.com/apostolic_succession.html
po18guy
Well-known member
Thank you for moving this. This points out the primary difficulty in reasoning with “bible Christians”. It appears that they actually lack faith, as they demand to see everything in print. And even then they likely dispute the actual meaning of it.
The power to bind and loose. The laying on of hands. Oh, but they don’t recognize or do those things in their congregation. Not for those purposes, anyway. (sigh)…
po18guy
Well-known member
CAUTION: I see that link has the word “catholic” in it. [hairy eyeball]…
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Sinke
Guest
Also a point to remember: if Protestant claims that there is no “apostolic succession” in the Bible ( literally quoted words ) tell him that’s just a name for Biblical truth which was given later.
If he starts talking “that’s adding to the Bible”, ask him where in the Bible is the word “Bible” and who added that the Word of God is called -Bible.
If he starts talking “that’s adding to the Bible”, ask him where in the Bible is the word “Bible” and who added that the Word of God is called -Bible.
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justasking4
Guest
I don’t lack faith but if the catholic church is going to claim that there is such a thing as apostolic succession then the first place to look would have to be the scriptures. Since we know its not “written” there, then we are going to need to look at “written” historical sources for support. I would think even catholics who care about their faith would want to see written evidence for it.
Look at the context in Matthew where this saying occurs. I think you might be suprised it doesn’t support apostolic succession in the least.
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justasking4
Guest
There is no need to do this. Do you know where apostolic succession is either mentioned? Do you know what apostolic succession is?
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Mannyfit75
Guest
Apostolic Succession is part of the Tradition. It is implied in the BIble especially when the Apostles had to replace Judas with Matthias by the leadership of Peter.
History shows based on the writings of the Early Church Fathers, that the Apostles did handed down their authority.
St. Polycarp was a disciple of St. John, the Apostle, and St. Ignatius of Antioch as well. St. Clement of Rome was another.
Sacred Tradition identifies him as the Clement mentioned in Philippians 4:3 [1]. He may have been a freedman of Titus Flavius Clemens, who was consul with his cousin, the Emperor Domitian. The Shepherd of Hermas (Vision II. 4. 3) mentions a Clement whose office it is to communicate with other churches; this function has been adduced to support Clement’s authorship of the letter to the church at Corinth, Greece, ascribed to him: full details are at the entry Epistles of Clement.
Liber Pontificalis documents the fact that Clement of Rome had personally known Saint Peter, and states that he wrote two letters (the second letter, 2 Clement is no longer ascribed to Clement) and that he died in Greece in the third year of Trajan’s reign, or 100. A 9th century tradition says he was martyred in Crimea in 102, tied to a ship’s anchor and thrown overboard to drown, but earlier sources say he died a natural death. The Holy See’s Annuario Pontificio (2003) cites a reign from 92 to 99.
Apostolic Succession is the handing down of authority from Jesus to His Apostles, and from the Apostles to the bishops, their sucessors.
St. Andrew, brother of Peter founded the Church in Constantinople.
Peter was the bishop in Antioch and Rome.
James, the Bishop of Jerusalem.
The Church in Alexandria is founded by the Apostle Mark.
These Churches still exist to today.
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justasking4
Guest
Were these men addressed as apostles
First time i have seen Peter associated with Antioch. What’ odd about Rome is that Paul in that epistle never mentions Peter but he does for many others.
If look at James in the Acts 15 where he has the final say at the first council, we don’t see any reference to him being the bishop of this church.
Did the all the churches believe that the men you mention above have the same authority as an apostle?
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Mannyfit75
Guest
These are Apostles.
Peter’s tomb is in Rome.
Your sister church in Babylon, chosen together with you, sends you greetings; and so does my son Mark" (1 Pet. 5, 13)
Further, the term Babylon is used six times in the Book of Revelation in the same way:
“Then another angel, a second, followed, saying, Fallen, fallen is Babylon the great! She has made all nations drink of the wine of the wrath of her fornication” (v. 14, 8);
“The great city was split into three parts, and the cities of the nations fell. God remembered great Babylon and gave her the wine-cup of the fury of his wrath” (v. 16, 19);
“…and on her forehead was written a name, a mystery: Babylon the great, mother of whores and of earth’s abominations” (v. 17, 5);
“He called out with a mighty voice, Fallen, fallen is Babylon the great!” (v. 18, 2);
“…they will stand far off, in fear of her torment, and say, Alas, alas, the great city, Babylon, the mighty city! For in one hour your judgment has come” (v. 18, 10);
“With such violence Babylon the great city will be thrown down, and will be found no more” (v. 18, 21).
Babylon can only refer to Rome as it was the only true “great city” in the time of Christ and the Apostles. Babylon proper in Mesopotamia had, by 100 A.D., been reduced to an inconsequential status.
The actual story of the discovery of St. Peter’s tomb and his skeletal remains spreads over centuries. On the site where St. Peter’s Basilica now stands stood originally a chariot race-course track built by the Emperor Caligula. All that remains of that race-track today is the tall Egyptian obelisk standing in the middle of the piazza. Nearby, at a small distance from the stone structure of the race-track, along the Via Cornelia, was a pagan burial-ground lying in a knoll called Vaticanus (“vatis” in Latin meaning prophet). It was in this burial-ground that the bones of St. Peter, wrapped in linen, was laid after his martyrdom.
St. Anacletus, third Bishop of Rome, erected a shrine over St. Peter’s grave which was visible to all those who passed by Vatican Hill. This shrine, despite the persecutions, became a familiar meeting place for Christians from the beginning and was mentioned in the Acts of St. Sebastian and in the writings of St. Marcius and St. Maurus dating from the third century.
In the early fourth century, the Emperor Constantine allowed Pope Sylvester I to construct a large new church over the burial place of St. Peter and the remains of other early Popes now gathered there. The stones for this new church were quarried from the old race-course and the structure of St. Peter’s shrine became the high altar. Begun in 326, this church was finally completed in 349. It contained five naves, fifty-two altars with seven hundred candles burning day and night, and golden mosaics decorating the walls and arches.
The actual bones of St. Peter were taken out of their shrine by Constantine, covered in fine purple cloth interwoven with gold, put into a box, and placed into a niche of a nearby wall (Wall G) to protect them from humidity. This wall was later covered by red plaster. The original burial place of St. Peter was also walled off to protect it from injury and the outside world, only to become lost for the next sixteen hundred years.
In 1506, it was decided, due to subsidence and decay, to replace the old church built by Constantine with a grand new basilica. In 1626, Bernini, testing the floor over St. Peter’s burial place for the erection of his weighty balbacchino, came across numerous skeletons. These skeletons were arranged like spokes of a wheel, pointing to a central spot under the high altar.
Because before there were bishops there were Apostles. The Orthodox Church itself maintains that he is the first bishop of Jerusalem. The Catholic Church also affirm this.
They are the Apostles.
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justasking4
Guest
What do you mean when you use the word apostle?
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Mannyfit75
Guest
I gave you 5 major Churches, all of whom were founded by 4 of the Apostles.
- Rome founded by Apostle Peter.
- Antioch Founded by Apostle Peter.
- Alexandria founded by the Apostle Mark
- Constantinople founded by the Apostle Andrew
- Jerusalem founded by Apostle James.
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Erich
Guest
The office of bishop was certainly intended to continue after the deaths of the original apostles.
In 2 Timothy 2:2, Paul teaches that there is continuity between himself and successive generations. This was envisioned by Jesus himself when he told his original apostles, “As the Father has sent me, even so I send you” (John 20:21). That same authority is expressed in Matthew 10:1: “He called to him his twelve disciples and gave them authority over unclean spirits, to cast them out, and to heal every disease and every infirmity.” These texts suggest that Jesus gave his authority to the apostles—the same authority that he had from the Father. What good would that authority be for the successive generations of the Church if it was not passed on, as 2 Timothy 2:2 seems to suggest?
Look at 2 Timothy 2:2 closely: “And what you (second generation of the Church) heard from me (first generation) through many witnesses entrust to faithful people (third generation) who will have the ability to teach others (fourth generation) as well.”
In 2 Timothy 2:2, Paul teaches that there is continuity between himself and successive generations. This was envisioned by Jesus himself when he told his original apostles, “As the Father has sent me, even so I send you” (John 20:21). That same authority is expressed in Matthew 10:1: “He called to him his twelve disciples and gave them authority over unclean spirits, to cast them out, and to heal every disease and every infirmity.” These texts suggest that Jesus gave his authority to the apostles—the same authority that he had from the Father. What good would that authority be for the successive generations of the Church if it was not passed on, as 2 Timothy 2:2 seems to suggest?
Look at 2 Timothy 2:2 closely: “And what you (second generation of the Church) heard from me (first generation) through many witnesses entrust to faithful people (third generation) who will have the ability to teach others (fourth generation) as well.”
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justasking4
Guest
Lets address Peter as the founder of Rome. Would you happen to know the year?
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Gamera
Guest
Wasn’t that Romulus and Remus?
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Rbt_Southwell
Guest
Sure we do, but are you willing to accept the Word of God has final arbiter?
I hope and pray so, justasking4.
Start with St Matthew in Chapter 28, verse 18: “…All power in heaven and on earth has been given to me. Go, therefore, and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit.”
And this one, from 2 Timothy, Chapter 2, verse 2: “And what you heard from me through many witnesses entrust to faithful people who will have the ability to teach others as well.”
Well, it IS from the Bible, justasking4, so how do YOU interpret these plain meaning passages??
Robert
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juliamajor
Guest
the word “apostolos” means messenger-hence the apostles were jesus’ messengers.Who better to succeed Jesus then those whom He taught . and who better to succeed them then those who were taught by the apostles who were taught by Jesus.Etc
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andzy
Guest
The Scripture does not say ANYWHERE that we should look for Christian teachings in the Bible first (just like it does not say that what’s not in the Scripture couldn’t be fully trusted). On the contrary!
But to follow your logic:
- if the abc church is going to claim that there is such a thing as Sola Scriptura, then the first place to look would have to be the Scriptures (good luck trying to find that one)
- if the xyz church is going to claim that there is such a thing as Trinity, then the first place to look would have to be the Scriptures (which was not the case neither for Catholics/Orthodox nor for Protestants)
You seem to be applying double standard again. :tsktsk:
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justasking4
Guest
Jesus is commanding His disciples to make disciples of all the nations by teaching them His teachings and baptizing them. No mention of apostolic succession here.
Paul is exhorting Timothy to train other faithful men to teach.
I just have. What these passages in context do not teach is some kind of apostolic succession.
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