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R2D2
Guest
Bring it! :knight2:If you want to send the Witnesses after me then i will be forced to use my ultimate weapon against you catholics and that is Jack Chick tracts…
If there apostolic succession why is it not mentioned in the scriptures?
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Mannyfit75
Guest
:knight1: :knight2: :grouphug:If you want to send the Witnesses after me then i will be forced to use my ultimate weapon against you catholics and that is Jack Chick tracts…
po18guy
Well-known member
So, you’ve seen them??? God bless Jack Chick. I pray that he loves God as much as he hates Catholics.If you want to send the Witnesses after me then i will be forced to use my ultimate weapon against you catholics and that is Jack Chick tracts…
Christ’s peace.
po18guy
Well-known member
Paul was speaking to ONE PARTICULAR church that had polygamists. You take Paul over Christ’s blanket authorization to Cephas? By the way, if you know about Jack Chick: honestly, have you read and/or are you using it right now? If so, that would explain a LOT. I pray not.
Christ’s peace.
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mercygate
Guest
Haven’t we already brought up Isaiah 22:22? Jesus quotes that verse, which passes the office of prime minister from the unworthy steward, Shebna, to Eliakim.
And surely we have mentioned the selection of Matthias and the laying on of hands to enroll him with the eleven in the Acts of the Apostles? Referring to Judas (the unworthy steward), Peter quotes Scripture to say “let another take his place.” They then lay hands on Matthias. Catholics see this stuff as a no-brainer. When I was a Protestant, I didn’t see it AT ALL!
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guanophore
Guest
It is not appropriate to try to understand Christology through any one verse. All of the verses need to be taken together, so that a full understanding of the concept can be acquired.
Catholics understand that Jesus is one one prophesied in the OT:
Isa 9:6-7
For to us a child is born,
to us a son is given;
and the government will be upon his shoulder,
and his name will be called
“Wonderful Counselor, Mighty God,
Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace.”
7 Of the increase of his government and of peace
there will be no end,
upon the throne of David, and over his kingdom,
Would you agree that this passage is about Jesus?
"Jesus Christ, the son of David, the son of Abraham. Matt 1:1
If so, then you will agree that the authority to be in charge (govern) is given to Him, as He testifies; Jesus came and said to them, "All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me. Matt 28:18
Isa 22:22-23
22 And I will place on his shoulder the key of the house of David; he shall open, and none shall shut; and he shall shut, and none shall open.
This prophesy echoes the senitment about Government, and Jesus says that it applies to Himself.
“'The words of the holy one, the true one, who has the key of David, who opens and no one shall shut, who shuts and no one opens.” Rev 3:7
These passages are also speaking about authority. The Key of David is represents the authority of rulership.
Luke 1:32-33
the Lord God will give to him the throne of his father David,
33 and he will reign over the house of Jacob for ever;
and of his kingdom there will be no end."
Jesus passed this kingly authority to govern, open and shut to His Apostles.
19 I will give you the keys of the kingdom of heaven, and whatever you bind on earth shall be bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven."Matt 16:19
The Apostles then passed on this authority to their successors, the bishops. In addition to the NT evidence, we also see this in the writings of the early fathers.
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guanophore
Guest
I will join you in that prayer, even though it is hard for me to believe that someone can love God, who cannot be seen, when they cannot love their brother, who they can see.
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fulloftruth
Guest
I hear Protestants say what they think the verses mean but who decides what the truth is . Non Christians now have reason to doubt the validity of Christianity because of Protestantism, which is why Christ prayed that we would be of one mind and spirit, one faith one flock one shepard, and yet in protestantism we see nothing but confusion.
That means your brothers status as a saved individual is at stake and Protestants think Christ would allow sinful men without any protection from the spirit to excomunicate someone and then God would bind that in heaven. What kind of better promise is that. if the old testament faith had succession to the seat of Moses, and we have a covenant based on better promises. . Remember Paul said, those that twist the scriptures to there own destruction, despise authority. THat is what I always see in a Protestant. Certainly well meaning. But will do anything to make sure that there is no authority, and a book cannot be an authority because heretics use the same verses as the church, so appealing to scripture for the truth without Apostolic Authority is a joke. I always see Protestants saying that Christ always appealed to Scripture when teaching or correcting the Scribes and the Pharisees, SO thats all we must do. The problem is Christ is God, so he was speaking from the same authority that he later shared with the Apostles, if you have faith that he is God you are sure of his interpretation, but outside of him sharing his authority, not just for one generation but until he returns(which he said he would do) how can a protestant claim to have the same infallible interpretive gift Christ gave to the apostles only, without apostolic succession
In Fact while the church teaches that the Word of God is Holy in and of itself Scripture is meaningless unless someone can authoritatively teach its meaning. In fact it is dangerous outside of that authority because those that interpret it wrongly, do so with the mistaken authority of God and others believe them into heresy. Of course there is invincible ignorance and all but it is still bad. If the Church teaches otherwise than I stand corrected. I by no means am more wise than the church. I do not have any problem with authority
Code:
What are they Protesting any way. If the Church lost the faith over the 1500 years how did they get it uncorrupted. Why do they trust a Catholic Bible that even Luther admitted he owed to the Catholic Church.
If the Catholic Church is not the Church that has apostolic succession, which is a clear teaching of the apostles, " how can they teach lest they be sent" "They had no mandate from us" laying on of hands for the building up of the body of Christ" Keys to the kingdom, binding and loosing, forgiveness and retaining of sins" "He who hears you hears me" Then where is the Church Christ estabolished that he said you could take your brother to if he sinned against you and you could have him banished from the heavenly Jerusalem if he did not listen to that church, which by the way is the pillar and foundation of truth..In Fact while the church teaches that the Word of God is Holy in and of itself Scripture is meaningless unless someone can authoritatively teach its meaning. In fact it is dangerous outside of that authority because those that interpret it wrongly, do so with the mistaken authority of God and others believe them into heresy. Of course there is invincible ignorance and all but it is still bad. If the Church teaches otherwise than I stand corrected. I by no means am more wise than the church. I do not have any problem with authority
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justasking4
Guest
What makes you say this? Where in the text do you see anything about polygamy?
Huh? Can you explain what you are referring to here?
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justasking4
Guest
Where is Jesus quoting this verse?
i have looked at the passage in Acts and i don’t see any “laying of hands” being mentioned. Is there another verse that says this?
Catholics see all kinds of things but that doesn’t mean its true. This applies to protestants to.
I take you have converted to Roman Catholicism. If so, did you study their doctrines in light of the scriptures? Did you look at the marian doctrines?
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guanophore
Guest
Rev 3:7
'The words of the holy one, the true one, who has the key of David, who opens and no one shall shut, who shuts and no one opens.
I don’t see it either, justasking. I think it is being assumed because this was the manner in which everyone was later commissioned.
True, but most Protestants don’t have the Apostolic Tradition to keep them on track!
I was hung up on the marian doctrines for a long time. To tell you the truth, I don’t understand why the Church says they are essential.
Serial polygamy, probably. Having a lot of busted marriages.
Jesus gave Cephas the keys to the kingdom. There is nothing in Paul’s writings that fails to support this.
Don’t worry, justasking, I used to read and believe them too. There is hope for all of us!
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averheyen
Guest
Wow, this is some pretty intense scrutiny of apolostic succession.
I admire “just4asking’s” challenging of the catholic point of view, but through all the back and forth, the Catholics seem to have a preeety solid case.
I admire “just4asking’s” challenging of the catholic point of view, but through all the back and forth, the Catholics seem to have a preeety solid case.
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mercygate
Guest
Mt. 16:18-19 “I will give you the keys of the kingdom of heaven . . .” ff.
My error. I was confusing it with the mission of Paul and Barnabas, where the Church lays hands on them to send them on their first mission.
Sounds like a way to squirm out of confronting what is written in Scripture because you don’t personally like what it says.
Please. Did I study Catholic doctrine in light of Scripture? It was Scripture that forced me to confront the fact that the Catholic Church meets the conditions Jesus himself set down for HIS Church. Once you face up to the fact that it IS His Church and that it must be received on HIS terms, the Marian dogmas begin to fall linto place. They ALL point to some aspect of the Person of Jesus Christ. Nothing the Church understands of Our Lady is about Our Lady. It is ALL about Jesus.
Frankly, your question is kind of patronizing. FYI: I was trained as a priest in a protestant denomination. Y’know? Scriptures in Hebrew & Greek. Systematic & dogmatic theology. The works. I came into the Church by millimeters, as each of my anti-Catholic views crashed in the face of the perfect consistency, intellectual integrity, the unity and beauty of Catholic teaching.
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PinoyCatholic
Guest
My answer to your question justasking4, just in case you skipped over it:
po18guy
Well-known member
Only the power of prayer can help him at this point. Did you read his past in the CA Library? It is living proof of the big lie theory. In his death throes, he must be mailing out a few more copies of his vile trash. I did not see mention of Baptism even once in his tracts. Jack Chick is not satan, but is sure drunk on the evil one’s wine.
Christ’s peace.
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Harsalter
Guest
Mathew 18:18 just about handles everything the true Holy Catholic Church teaches and implements, especially the “sucession of bishops”.
Verily I say unto you, Whatsoever ye shall bind on earth shall be bound in heaven: and whatsoever ye shall loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven.
And to quote the movie, “A Few Good Men”, “They can’t handle the truth!”, so they keep denying it.
Of course protestants will deny the succession of bishops. Their faith crumbles like the false foundation their faith was founded on when they recognize this. I know, I was once a southern baptist.
Verily I say unto you, Whatsoever ye shall bind on earth shall be bound in heaven: and whatsoever ye shall loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven.
Well said!
And to quote the movie, “A Few Good Men”, “They can’t handle the truth!”, so they keep denying it.
Of course protestants will deny the succession of bishops. Their faith crumbles like the false foundation their faith was founded on when they recognize this. I know, I was once a southern baptist.
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thessalonian
Guest
Justasking,
Back a couple of pages you said that Matt 16:18 says nothing about succession. No, but v. 19 does. Jesus gives Peter the keys to the kingdom. Now tell me, when I get keys for a house I buy I get them from the previous owner right and I pass them along to a new owner if I sell the house, correct. Sounds alot like succession to me. When you add to that Jesus paralleling Is 22:22-24 where he takes the keys from the house of david from shebna and gives them to Eliakim, you have a great arguement for succession of an office. That office, the Steward of the Davidic Kingdom was a successionary office that Jesus parallels the office given to Peter to. Shebna was a steward in a line of 700 years of stewards. So yes Matt 16 does imply quite strongly succession.
Back a couple of pages you said that Matt 16:18 says nothing about succession. No, but v. 19 does. Jesus gives Peter the keys to the kingdom. Now tell me, when I get keys for a house I buy I get them from the previous owner right and I pass them along to a new owner if I sell the house, correct. Sounds alot like succession to me. When you add to that Jesus paralleling Is 22:22-24 where he takes the keys from the house of david from shebna and gives them to Eliakim, you have a great arguement for succession of an office. That office, the Steward of the Davidic Kingdom was a successionary office that Jesus parallels the office given to Peter to. Shebna was a steward in a line of 700 years of stewards. So yes Matt 16 does imply quite strongly succession.
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Subrosa
Guest
You need to ask yourself two questions -
Is everything in the bible true?
Is everthing that is true in the bible?
Answer these questions honestly, then research. the answers are out there.
Subrosa
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Ignatius
Guest
po18guy
Well-known member
He was addressing the qualifications for presbyters. Some in Greece and other areas had more than one wife, which was not acceptable.
Christ gave Cephas (Simon, now known as Peter/Petros/Rock) the absolute power to “make up and break up” (bind and loose) in whatever he felt directed by the Holy Spirit to do. In contrast, Paul was speaking to a particular group of early Christians in one city, instructing them in proper formulation of the church leadeship. His advice was directed solely to them. Christ gave Peter God’s own authority to form the church.
Yeah, 'ol Cartoon Jack seems pretty hip until you hold your breath and take a look… catholic.com/library/sr_chick_tracts_p1.asp
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