If there apostolic succession why is it not mentioned in the scriptures?

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No doubt Peter is mentioned a lot. The most as you state. However we can also look at this another way. After the resurrection Paul is mentioned most. I think he is mentioned over a hundred times while Peter is far less. Peter wrote only 2 letters while Paul wrote over 10. Paul is ministering to a far larger group than Peter. Paul to the gentiles, Peter to the Jews.
How do you reconcile the above with the below?
i think not. Just because something is mentioned more does not mean its the most influential. Paul no doubt has had a greater impact on the church with his theology than Peter.
The NT is inspired-inerrant. Nothing else is. It is the foundation for all doctrine and practices because it alone is inspired-inerrant. From it we can have everything we need for salvation. It actually makes this claim as you may know.
you are picking fruit from the tree planted by the Catholic Church.
If Peter alone was the only head then why don’t the scriptures teach this? Take for example the first council in Acts 15. It was not Peter who finally ruled but James. Secondly, Paul never acknowledges Peter as the supreme leader of the church but acutally rebukes him.
Au Contraire
Actually James was affirming Peter’s statement a few verses up. God appeared to Peter in the dream regarding Mosaic Tradition, not to James. The whole assembly fell silent when Peter spoke, and then James seconded Peter. WOW the FIRST CHURCH COUNCIL, and we still have them today. How Biblical can Catholic Christians get?

Cherry picking quotes can be so limiting, N’est ce pas?

Peter gave the speach at Pentacost, Peter announced a successor to Judas was necessary. Paul was a missionary, not a leader.
I go to the inspired-inerrant scriptures as the final authority.
How do you know the NT is the NT? Why isn’t the Gospel of Thomas in there, or the many other writings?
True biblical faith requires us to have evidence and reason for our beliefs. Jesus Himself taught this principle in a number of places.
What is your evidence? How did the Bible, especially the NT come to be? Did it fall onto ML lap in 1517?

This question has been asked of you over and over. You still have not answered it. You did admit that Bible was not in the Bible.
 
Easy there…Scripture is inspired by the Holy Spirit. Sure, it was written and canonized by the Church, but its primary author is God.

Hope this helps. :tiphat:
I said Scripture comes from, not written, by the CC. By that I mean, it was compiled and safeguarded under the infallible guidance of the Holy Spirit. I should not shortcut!🙂
 
i have never seen John 20:22-23 used to support the idea that the church is “God-breathed”. Do you have a source for this interpretation of that passage?
So you are now inerrant. Because YOU have never seen these verses used in this way before, we should not use them in this way, although they have been used in this way for 2,000 years, j4 comes along, and decides he never heard of it, so we shouldn’t either?

I can’t help it… My source is THE MAGESTERIUM!👍
 
No doubt Peter is mentioned a lot.
Paul was educated and literate. Peter was not. Any wonder who wrote more? Peter had already established the traditions which Paul received. Where do you think Paul got them? Paul gave scripture and tradtion equal weight. You pound Paul’s letters to death. Where’s your mention of his tradition? Paul’s letters were meant to be instructive, but only if used in conjunction with the tradtitions handed on to him, and which he in turn handed on to the early church. Where’d they go? Catholicism.
i think not. Just because something is mentioned more does not mean its the most influential. Paul no doubt has had a greater impact on the church with his theology than Peter.
Yes, if all you do is read. Like I said, you lack 50% of Christianity because the protesting deforrmers threw many of the traditions away. Those who split off from them continued the practice until the present day, where everyone can be a church unto himself, with no authority.
The NT is inspired-inerrant. Nothing else is. It is the foundation for all doctrine and practices because it alone is inspired-inerrant. From it we can have everything we need for salvation.
Who wrote the NT, Christ? No, MEN did. Those men must have been “inspired-inerrant”, right? You have absolute faith in that. That’s human infallibility, which you reject. It documents the Eucharist, which you REJECT. According to Christ, you have no life in you.
If Peter alone was the only head then why don’t the scriptures teach this?
This is beaten to death. If you change the meaning of Christ’s commands you render the NT worthless. Christ commanded Peter to lead and scripture recorded that command. Notice Christ also said that Peter had Divine Revelation “flesh and blood has not revealed this to you, but My Father in Heaven” Christ also changed Simon’s name to Peter at that moment. Have you changed the meanings of the words?
Take for example the first council in Acts 15. It was not Peter who finally ruled but James.
James was expressing opinion, not a hard and fast ruling. Scripture gives James no final authority. You conveneintly omit Peter’s statement (Acts 15:7) “My brothers, you are well aware that from early days God made His choice among you that through my mouth the Gentiles would hear the word of the Gospel and believe” Seems that Peter preached to the Gentiles, too, huh?
Secondly, Paul never acknowledges Peter as the supreme leader of the church but acutally rebukes him.
As did Jesus, but He still made him the “Rock” on which the church was built. So, is Paul your Pope or James?
I go to the inspired-inerrant scriptures as the final authority.
Meaningless tripe! It means whatever you think it does. Why do you think Christ appointed a head? One authority to interpret. One voice, because He did not want 33,000 bickering denominations. He got them anyway.
True biblical faith requires us to have evidence and reason for our beliefs. Jesus Himself taught this principle in a number of places.
Yet you demand everything in print, and it’s not there. The remainder is in tradition, which you don’t have, so all of the missing parts have been made up. OSAS. SF, SS, you name it - Band-Aids to fix broken theology.

Christ be with you and reveal the fullness of truth to you, in the fullness of time.
 
It goes back to my previous point and what follows from that. If the scriptures truly are from God then we know they are inerrant-inspired-infallible.
I have already figured out you are my College Theology professor putting us to the test.

So thanks for the helping us in our studies. :amen:
 
After the resurrection Paul is mentioned most.

Paul no doubt has had a greater impact on the church with his theology than Peter.
So what? St. Thomas of Aquinas and St. Augustine were some of theologians much more influential than probably any Pope. Theological or even pastoral influence does not indicate degree of authority.
The fact is that St. Peter was certainly the most prominent Apostle whom Jesus personally picked and entrusted with: a) His flock, b) keys of His Kingdom. Nothing of the sort given to St. Paul or anybody else. Who am I do question Jesus’ choice?
If Peter alone was the only head then why don’t the scriptures teach this?
He wasn’t the only leader, but he was the “head-leader”. E.g.: Mt. 16:18-20; John 21:15-17
No doubt Peter was a leader in the NT church. I don’t doubt that. What i have a problem is with the way the catholic church potrays Peter as being the supreme leader of the entire church. That you don’t see in the NT.
Actually, I do see it in the NT. Don’t you? If so, look at some verses provided to you earlier.
I go to the inspired-inerrant scriptures as the final authority.
No doubt, but unfortunately, this is not a Biblical approach.
The NT is inspired-inerrant. Nothing else is. It is the foundation for all doctrine and practices because it alone is inspired-inerrant. From it we can have everything we need for salvation. It actually makes this claim as you may know.

It derived from the very nature of the scriptrues themselves. What other foundation is inspired-inerrant?
See also 2 Tim 3:16.
The Bible doesn’t say that. And 2 Tim. 3: 16 says nothing about Scripture’s final authority, only about it’s usefulness. BIG difference. So, the question stands: where is that (The NT is inspired-inerrant. Nothing else is.) in the Bible?
Where does the Bible claim to be the sole infallible rule of faith for believers?
This still doesn’t show the sole authority of the Scripture. Just because the Scripture is inspired by God doesn’t mean that the Tradition and the Church are not inspired by God.
 
Paul never appeals to Peter for any of his authority.
You don’t know your Bible very well, do you? You just made that up, which further convinces me you think you are infallible.
Read Galations 1:18:

" Then after three years I went up to Jerusalem to confer with Cephas and remained with him for fifteen days. "

By the way, I read that at mass this morning. It is the reading we read every other year on Tuesdays of the 27th week of Ordinary Time. (this is not the year, my eyes just wandered in my missal as I was meditating before mass)
:getholy:
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by justasking4
After the resurrection Paul is mentioned most.
Paul no doubt has had a greater impact on the church with his theology than Peter.
All i’m showing is that it depends how you want to use “numbers” in regards to influence. Peter was no doubt influential but he was not the only one. Paul certainly had just as much if not more than he did becasue of his letters and theology.
andzy
St. Thomas of Aquinas and St. Augustine were some of theologians much more influential than probably any Pope. Theological or even pastoral influence does not indicate degree of authority.
Not even Aquinas or Augustine can match the influence that Paul has had down the centuries. The only one that is greater is Jesus.
andzy
The fact is that St. Peter was certainly the most prominent Apostle whom Jesus personally picked and entrusted with: a) His flock, b) keys of His Kingdom. Nothing of the sort given to St. Paul or anybody else. Who am I do question Jesus’ choice?
My issue is with what Rome does with Peter to justify its authority claims.
Quote:
Originally Posted by justasking4
If Peter alone was the only head then why don’t the scriptures teach this?
andzy
He wasn’t the only leader, but he was the “head-leader”. E.g.: Mt. 16:18-20; John 21:15-17
How is his “head-leadership” manifested in the NT? Do the other apostles appeal to him alone? Do any mention that the church is built on him?
Quote:
Originally Posted by justasking4
No doubt Peter was a leader in the NT church. I don’t doubt that. What i have a problem is with the way the catholic church potrays Peter as being the supreme leader of the entire church. That you don’t see in the NT.
andzy
Actually, I do see it in the NT. Don’t you? If so, look at some verses provided to you earlier.
Those verses do not point to him being the supreme head of the NT church.
Quote:
Originally Posted by justasking4
I go to the inspired-inerrant scriptures as the final authority.
andzy
No doubt, but unfortunately, this is not a Biblical approach.
What is greater in authority than the inspired-inerrant God breathed scriptures?
Its not the church because it is made of fallible men who have and can err.
Quote:
Originally Posted by justasking4
The NT is inspired-inerrant. Nothing else is. It is the foundation for all doctrine and practices because it alone is inspired-inerrant. From it we can have everything we need for salvation. It actually makes this claim as you may know.
It derived from the very nature of the scriptrues themselves. What other foundation is inspired-inerrant?
See also 2 Tim 3:16.
andzy
The Bible doesn’t say that. And 2 Tim. 3: 16 says nothing about Scripture’s final authority, only about it’s usefulness. BIG difference. So, the question stands: where is that (The NT is inspired-inerrant. Nothing else is.) in the Bible?
It does not say that specifically. However, what does the catholic church teach about the scriptures? Do they consider them inspired-inerrant Word of God?
Quote:
Originally Posted by justasking4
Quote:andzy
Where does the Bible claim to be the sole infallible rule of faith for believers?
It goes back to my previous point and what follows from that. If the scriptures truly are from God then we know they are inerrant-inspired-infallible.
andzy
This still doesn’t show the sole authority of the Scripture. Just because the Scripture is inspired by God doesn’t mean that the Tradition and the Church are not inspired by God.
Lets start with scripture. Do we agree that the scriptures are inspired-inerrant? If you don’t then you are going against catholic teaching. Now, where is it written that Tradition or the Church is inspired?
 
qui est ce
Quote:
Originally Posted by justasking4
Paul never appeals to Peter for any of his authority.
You don’t know your Bible very well, do you? You just made that up, which further convinces me you think you are infallible.
Read Galations 1:18:
" Then after three years I went up to Jerusalem to confer with Cephas and remained with him for fifteen days. "
Where in verse 18 is Paul appealing to Peter for authority?
By the way, I read that at mass this morning. It is the reading we read every other year on Tuesdays of the 27th week of Ordinary Time. (this is not the year, my eyes just wandered in my missal as I was meditating before mass)
 
po18guy;2823318]Paul was educated and literate. Peter was not. Any wonder who wrote more? Peter had already established the traditions which Paul received. Where do you think Paul got them? Paul gave scripture and tradtion equal weight. You pound Paul’s letters to death. Where’s your mention of his tradition?
The only thing we know of Paul’s writings is found in his letters.
Now if you mean something else besides these letters in the NT, then what specifically would that be?
po18guy
Paul’s letters were meant to be instructive, but only if used in conjunction with the tradtitions handed on to him, and which he in turn handed on to the early church. Where’d they go? Catholicism.
What specific “traditions” were handed to Paul that is not recorded in the NT?
 
Quote:
Take for example the first council in Acts 15. It was not Peter who finally ruled but James.
po18guy
James was expressing opinion, not a hard and fast ruling.
Huh? He is giving more than just an opinion but his judgement on what needs to be done. See Acts 15:19 and 30-31
po18guy
Scripture gives James no final authority.
See my previous comment.
po18guy
You conveneintly omit Peter’s statement (Acts 15:7) “My brothers, you are well aware that from early days God made His choice among you that through my mouth the Gentiles would hear the word of the Gospel and believe” Seems that Peter preached to the Gentiles, too, huh?
No doubt there was some overlap but his primary ministry was to the Jews while Paul to the gentiles.
 
Where in verse 18 is Paul appealing to Peter for authority?
Gal 2:2 I laid before them (but privately before those who were of repute) the gospel which I preach among the Gentiles, lest somehow I should be running or had run in vain.

Paul is submitting his gospel to Peter and the “pillars” to confirm its accuracy – and he boasts that they did nothing to change his teaching.

The point is not whether Paul consults Peter “alone” but that he goes to “Cephas” and consults with him and the others; the decision is not made without Peter.
 
Huh? He is giving more than just an opinion but his judgement on what needs to be done. See Acts 15:19 and 30-31.
“James’s words (verse 19) “my judgment is” (RSV) translate the Greek verb krino. In Acts 13:46; 16:15; 26:8, the verb is used to denote expression of an opinion. …krino as used in Acts 15:19 means “to think” in the sense of hold an opinion. [Friedrich Buchsel, in Gerhard Kittel, editor, Theological Dictionary of the New Testament, Vol. 3 (Grand Rapids: Eerdmans, 1993), 923.] … What did James do? He repeated what Peter had already said. For reasons of his own he added to the council’s instructions some judaizing elements (requirements about not eating meat sacrificed to idols, not consuming blood). What happened to Peter’s decision? It became the law of the Church. What happened to James’s additions? Scripture never mentions them again. The Church ignored them. In 1 Corinthians 8, written well after the council, Paul taught that whether one eats meat which has been sacrificed to idols is purely a prudential judgment.”

From Peter and the Orthodox, by Ray Ryland
 
Where in verse 18 is Paul appealing to Peter for authority?
What do you think he was doing there for 15 days, in light of all the other Scripture verses mention here about Peter speaking up and making announcements?

You already admitted the Bible is not in the Bible, so the word Pope is not in the Bible.
 
Lets start with scripture. Do we agree that the scriptures are inspired-inerrant?
Yes, we still agree that Scripture is inspired-inerrant (neither of us has changed position since post #50 or so on this thread)… but I can prove it with a spiral argument, whereas you can only “prove” it with a circular argument (i.e. you begin with the fact of inspiration and then find passages in the Bible that seem to support inspiration and then “conclude” that the Bible confirms its inspiration, which you knew all along).

As long as we’re “just asking” let me just ask why should the Bible be taken as a rule of faith at all, let alone the sole rule?
Now, where is it written that Tradition or the Church is inspired?
Where is it written that the Bible is inspired?

Paul wrote in 2 Tim 3:16-17, “All scripture is inspired by God and is useful for teaching, for refutation, for correction, and for training in righteousness, so that one who belongs to God may be competent, equipped for every good work.”

But, probably only seconds earlier, he wrote in 2 Tim 3:14-15 (emphasis mine), “But you, remain faithful to what you have learned and believed, because you know from whom you learned it, and that from infancy you have known (the) sacred scriptures, which are capable of giving you wisdom for salvation through faith in Christ Jesus.”

The only sacred scriptures Timothy would have known from infancy are what is today commonly referred to as the Old Testament. If you want to use 2 Tim.3:16-17 to prove that Scripture is the sole rule of faith, then 2 Tim.3:14-15 proves too much (i.e. it proves that the New Testament isn’t necessary).
 
Huh? He is giving more than just an opinion but his judgement on what needs to be done. See Acts 15:19 and 30-31

See my previous comment.

No doubt there was some overlap but his primary ministry was to the Jews while Paul to the gentiles.
Oh, JA4, Cephas went to and abided in the very center of the Gentile world, Rome. Had he been destined to preach to the Jews, he would have remained in Jerusalem or the surrounding areas where Christ preached to the lost children of Israel. Both Peter and Paul preached the Gospel. Both were sent to the Gentiles. Both were necessary to fullfill God’s plan. Paul wrote, by the gift of his education. Peter guided by his gift of authority. Tradition combined with Scripture. Amen.

I pray that what we are seeing here is a figurative equivalent of Saint Thomas moving forward at Christ’s call to probe His wounds and place his fingers in Christ’s side…

The peace of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ be always with you.
 
All i’m showing is that it depends how you want to use “numbers” in regards to influence.
Indeed, it can. Therefore, as well as taking into account how Jesus refered to St. Peter and what He told to this Apostle, the usual Protestant argument that St. Peter couldn’t be the “head” Apostle doesn’t have much substance.
My issue is with what Rome does with Peter to justify its authority claims.
“Justifying” (as you put it) the authority of the Church and St. Peter is much more Biblical than “justifying” one’s own authority in interpreting the Scripture and Christian teachings. That has been the point of several earlier posts.
How is his “head-leadership” manifested in the NT? Do the other apostles appeal to him alone? Do any mention that the church is built on him?
Those verses do not point to him being the supreme head of the NT church.
You have been given verses supporting St. Peter’s authority, including Mt.16:18.
And no, it’s not about him (or the current Pope) being the sole authority.
What is greater in authority than the inspired-inerrant God breathed scriptures?
Its not the church because it is made of fallible men who have and can err.
God is the greatest authority. And He happened to choose to use and give authority to the Church and promised to guide it forever.
If the Church, whom God established and promised to guide, cannot be trusted because there are sinful people, how can a single Christian be trusted in his/her interpretation of the Bible and Christian faith???
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justasking4:
The NT is inspired-inerrant. Nothing else is. It is the foundation for all doctrine and practices because it alone is inspired-inerrant. From it we can have everything we need for salvation. It actually makes this claim as you may know.
"andzy:
The Bible doesn’t say that.
It does not say that specifically.
So, you agree that the Bible does not support your argument that the Scripture is the only inspired-inerrant and foundation for all doctrine and practice?
Or maybe you’re saying that the Bible doesn’ say it, but you’re implying it?
However, what does the catholic church teach about the scriptures? Do they consider them inspired-inerrant Word of God?
Is this not a rhetorical question???
Do we agree that the scriptures are inspired-inerrant? If you don’t then you are going against catholic teaching.
When have I said/implied that they are not???
There is a BIG difference, though, between saying that something is inspired and saying that it is the only thing inspired.
Now, where is it written that Tradition or the Church is inspired?
“Where is it written” is a “biased” approach, but you can find a starting point here.
 
So, you agree that the Bible does not support your argument that the Scripture is the only inspired-inerrant and foundation for all doctrine and practice?
Or maybe you’re saying that the Bible doesn’ say it, but you’re implying it?
He already admitted the Bible is not in the Bible. He also claims infallibility in his interpretation of the Bible. He says his interpretation is right and ours is wrong.
“Where is it written” is a “biased” approach, but you can find a starting point here.
He says he already does enough reading. He wants you to tell him so he can do more reading on this thread. It’s more fun.:yup:
 
Gal 2:2 I laid before them (but privately before those who were of repute) the gospel which I preach among the Gentiles, lest somehow I should be running or had run in vain.

Paul is submitting his gospel to Peter and the “pillars” to confirm its accuracy – and he boasts that they did nothing to change his teaching.

The point is not whether Paul consults Peter “alone” but that he goes to “Cephas” and consults with him and the others; the decision is not made without Peter.
Again he is not appealing to their authority but wanting to be sure he is teaching correctly.
 
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