If there Is no God, Heaven, or objective moral value, Why survive?

[Sair]

Is that just an emotional response, or is there also a rational basis for this statement?

Why is it that you apparently value reason over emotion? Without either, we would be diminished. Both have a role to play in how we lead our lives.

Emotion is prior to rationality, but the latter may sometimes overcome the former, and vice versa. Would you have it be otherwise?

If nothing else, a rational reason for survival is that survival is necessary for the experience of emotional pleasures - without which, survival might seem too much like hard work to a purely rational mind. Circular argument? Perhaps - but this is the bind in which we find ourselves. Subjective enjoyment of life is not possible without the objective persistence of life.

 

[Hokomai]

I think it is clear that it would be good for many other species (but not all) if there were no people. In environmental terms, we are a plague. If there were many self-conscious species the survival of any one would be no more important than the survival of other species. However, we know of only one sapiens species that has survived: us. Sentience, including self-consciousness may be a clear reason to support the survival of humans. This is especially so as there is no evidence of any other such species existing anywhere else in the universe (please excuse me for putting angels to one side for the sake of my un-believer argument here). I do not think it is inevitable that self-consciousness and sentience will evolve again if we are gone. I think it is important enough to preserve, even at some cost to other species. It may also give us the means, through space travel, to ensure the continuation of life beyond the risks of this single planet, as this life may be al there is.

 

[Tenofovir]

Survival is instinctive. People want to live because those sort of people contributed to the human gene pool in the past.

But I don’t think that outside of God, there is a rational reason for human beings, this earth, the universe or anything else to survive. If there are no objective values, and I don’t see how we can ground them in anything but God, then there is no objective value in the human race, the earth, the universe etc either. Whether we are intelligent or not, it matters not. Besides these days our sentience is thought of as illusory as is free will by many. If we don’t really have free will, then we are not moral agents.

We can feel we are important but those are self delusions or self deceptions. It’s just built into us to want to survive, for the reason given above and we’re capable of rationalising this further.

It’s still good to survive and yes I would hope that alien life, if such exists, also manages to survive, but I can’t think of any rational reasons for it to do so, beyond sentimentality or God. I also don’t see why it should matter that the earth’s ecosystem is going down the drain, for the earth started so in the first place. No doubt it could recover, it went through worse problems then us, but even if it didn’t, who cares beyond the romantic notion of a David Attenborough wildlife documentary.

 

[Nelka]

If there Is no God, Heaven, or objective moral value, Why survive?

God exists!
Heaven exists!

That’s why we survive!

 

[minkymurph]

Do people just want to survive, I thought they want to be happy, not just survive.

Firstly, I believe in God.

God created us with a purpose - the fulfillment of life. The ultimate fulfillment of our life is union with God for eternity, and as believers that is our ultimate desire. However, God’s purpose in creating life was also for us to lead fulfilling lives now. If we focus purely on the after-life, we can miss out on all the fulfilling things we have now.

People don’t just want to survive, they want their lives to be fulfilling. Therefore, life is not just about survival, being happy. It’s about many things. It’s quite possible to unhappy, lack material goods, and still have a fulfilling life.

People can lead fulfilling lives now if they don’t believe in an after-life. They can do so because that is God’s purpose. However, absence of faith restricts that degree of fulfillment now, and ultimately for eternity. People who feel no need for God and have no desire to be with Him for eternity. Therefore, they don’t see the value of belief in God and faith in leading a fulfilling life. People who believe in God do, because they have that desire.

 

[Eleanor61]

I think that this is an interesting question, particularly the last part about no objective morality. I have Asperger’s Syndome, an autism spectrum disorder, and any emotions I have are pretty deeply buried and inaccessible. I do not believe that there is any objective purpose in living for humans outside of God. I do not have strong survival instincts, I would happily sacrifice my life for my husband or children, but it would not be the same sacrifice that it would be for someone who loves life itself. I do not, and I have, since childhood, felt that life is largely pointless. Certainly it is pointless apart from God.
I also find that living in times like this is deeply disturbing. The moral relativism of our day, and you see a lot of it on these Catholic forums, makes one feel very isolated for holding convictions about moral issues. People are excoriated for holding that certain things are objectively evil, and enjoined to be more charitable. Is God Himself as changeable as we in the Church appear to be? It is an unsettling thought.
I would take the minority opinion here and say that part from God there is no logical reason to exist. As the film My Mother’s Glory says at the end, “life is a series of unbearable sorrows interrupted by a few moments of joy” (poor paraphrase). It is a poor proposition, and it is emotion and disposition rather than logic which would say otherwise.

 

[Sair]

It’s still good to survive and yes I would hope that alien life, if such exists, also manages to survive, but I can’t think of any rational reasons for it to do so, beyond sentimentality or God. I also don’t see why it should matter that the earth’s ecosystem is going down the drain, for the earth started so in the first place. No doubt it could recover, it went through worse problems then us, but even if it didn’t, who cares beyond the romantic notion of a David Attenborough wildlife documentary.

Well, that’s kind of the point, isn’t it? Humans care - and because we care, because we have this capacity for subjectivity, we are capable of valuing both ourselves and others.

What’s more, I see no reason to suppose that other animals are incapable of subjectively valuing their own existence - they have a survival instinct just as we do, though for no more rational reason than that they just do. No doubt some of these animals would benefit greatly if humans ceased to exist.

You speak of romantic notions, of it not mattering if ecosystems are destroyed - and you’re quite right. It doesn’t matter, on a cosmological scale, if humans or indeed any other animals exist or cease to exist. The universe will go on regardless. But what feeling human being would not love to witness a dinosaur in the flesh? What such person would not grieve for the passing of the Sumatran tiger or the glorious forests that support it? Or not feel outrage at the extinction of the western black rhino, due not to environmental factors but to human poaching? We don’t have to matter to the universe in order for our feelings to matter to ourselves.

 

[tbcrawford]

For those who do not believe in God…this life is vital because to them ‘this is all there is’.

For those of us who do believe in God this life is vital becuase how we live it determines our eternal life.

Life is vital either way

 

[Sair]

I think that this is an interesting question, particularly the last part about no objective morality. I have Asperger’s Syndome, an autism spectrum disorder, and any emotions I have are pretty deeply buried and inaccessible. I do not believe that there is any objective purpose in living for humans outside of God. I do not have strong survival instincts, I would happily sacrifice my life for my husband or children, but it would not be the same sacrifice that it would be for someone who loves life itself. I do not, and I have, since childhood, felt that life is largely pointless. Certainly it is pointless apart from God.
I also find that living in times like this is deeply disturbing. The moral relativism of our day, and you see a lot of it on these Catholic forums, makes one feel very isolated for holding convictions about moral issues. People are excoriated for holding that certain things are objectively evil, and enjoined to be more charitable. Is God Himself as changeable as we in the Church appear to be? It is an unsettling thought.
I would take the minority opinion here and say that part from God there is no logical reason to exist. As the film My Mother’s Glory says at the end, “life is a series of unbearable sorrows interrupted by a few moments of joy” (poor paraphrase). It is a poor proposition, and it is emotion and disposition rather than logic which would say otherwise.

I presume, from your post, that you have people who subjectively value your existence - your husband and children, for a start. Do they not provide you with as much reason for living as your belief in your god?

 

[Sair]

For those who do not believe in God…this life is vital because to them ‘this is all there is’.

For those of us who do believe in God this life is vital becuase how we live it determines our eternal life.

Life is vital either way

Good point

 

[Eleanor61]

I presume, from your post, that you have people who subjectively value your existence - your husband and children, for a start. Do they not provide you with as much reason for living as your belief in your god?

Actually, they were part of a carefully constructed plan to manufacture meaning in life for an admit-ably idiosyncratic case. My husband understands this. We married very young, knowing that while I find life very difficult and unpleasant in the main, I am a very responsible person and would fulfill my obligations. It has been almost 30 years, and i still think basically the same way about life as i did then. My views on many subjects, such as the infallibility of my parenting skills have changed dramatically, I am much more humble about the limits of sheer intellectual ability, but this desire to escape has never left me. The family keeps me here, they need me in a material sense as I provide a lot of care and create a safe haven, and it would hurt them immensely if I were to give up on life. I am conscious of this and the of fact that suicide is a mortal sin, especially since I appear to be in nearly full control of my faculties. But then what of the many people who are alone, who do not have anyone dependent upon them, anyone who would be deeply and permanently scarred by their death? The existence of God must provide a primary reason for each man’s existence, else there is no reason. Some are gifted by disposition to find more joy than sorrow in life, this has been proven to have little to do with actual circumstances, but reason, as in transcendent purpose, must be dependent upon belief in a God, or cosmic knowing deity of some sort.

 

[Sair]

But then what of the many people who are alone, who do not have anyone dependent upon them, anyone who would be deeply and permanently scarred by their death? The existence of God must provide a primary reason for each man’s existence, else there is no reason. Some are gifted by disposition to find more joy than sorrow in life, this has been proven to have little to do with actual circumstances, but reason, as in transcendent purpose, must be dependent upon belief in a God, or cosmic knowing deity of some sort.

There is no doubt that feelings of loneliness can and do lead to feelings of worthlessness. But this is in large part a reflection of our subjective needs as social animals - we need to be part of a community, even those of us whose deep-seated introversion requires periods of solitude to recover our emotional and intellectual energy (and yes, I include myself in this analysis).

Even when a person feels that they are worthless, the one thing that may alleviate their despair is the belief that there is someone out there who values them. For some people, this may be only the god they believe exists. Far be it from me to deny a profoundly lonely person any source of comfort, but the very fact that there are such people is a terrible indictment of our present society…

 

[minkymurph]

I would have to say the I did not decide to enter into a relationship with God because it was the most ‘logical’ or ‘rational’ thing to do. I entered into a relationship with God because I desired a relationship with God. We do not form relationships with people because it is the most ‘rational’ or ‘logical’ thing to do. In fact, it’s sometimes quite the opposite.

Those who are closest to us can try our patience and sometimes we may wonder if the grass would greener elsewhere. We do not stay with them because it is the most ‘logical and rational’ thing to do. Perhaps some do, but that would be a very cold way of looking at relationships. Therefore, we do not enter into a relationship with God and remain in that relationship because it is the most ‘rational, logical’ thing to do, or because the alternative seems less attractive.

Leading a life devoid of love is not fulfilling. In order to be loved, we must first love ourselves. It is not possible to have fulfilling relationships with God or others if we do not. God asks us to love ourselves. We live in world that treats speculative, imaginative thought and creativity with derision. Science subjects are considered superior to others and everything must be rational, logical and factual.
Speculative, imaginative thought, creativity and love are essential elements of what it is to be human. We are not Vulcans.

 

[MindOverMatter2]

What such person would not grieve for the passing of the Sumatran tiger or the glorious forests that support it? Or not feel outrage at the extinction of the western black rhino

Why is it rational to feel sorrow for the death of anything if all we are talking about is the rearrangement of atoms?

 

[MindOverMatter2]

For those who do not believe in God…this life is vital because to them ‘this is all there is’.

For those of us who do believe in God this life is vital becuase how we live it determines our eternal life.

Life is vital either way

What rational reason is there to exist?

 

[MindOverMatter2]

I presume, from your post, that you have people who subjectively value your existence - your husband and children, for a start. Do they not provide you with as much reason for living as your belief in your god?

Why should it matter? Universal naturalism is as such that a child and a father are merely fantasy concepts that we impose upon objects. A child is just a parasite that is living of your fantasy of having a family and the idea that you should love and that you do love them. These are purely emotional deceptions rooted in our genetic makeup.

 

[tonyrey]

Why should it matter? Universal naturalism is as such that a child and a father are merely fantasy concepts that we impose upon objects. A child is just a parasite that is living of your fantasy of having a family and the idea that you should love and that you do love them. These are purely emotional deceptions rooted in our genetic makeup.

A delightful and challenging analysis of the implications of deriving persons from impersonal objects.

 

[tonyrey]

Actually, they were part of a carefully constructed plan to manufacture meaning in life for an admit-ably idiosyncratic case. My husband understands this. We married very young, knowing that while I find life very difficult and unpleasant in the main, I am a very responsible person and would fulfill my obligations. It has been almost 30 years, and i still think basically the same way about life as i did then. My views on many subjects, such as the infallibility of my parenting skills have changed dramatically, I am much more humble about the limits of sheer intellectual ability, but this desire to escape has never left me. The family keeps me here, they need me in a material sense as I provide a lot of care and create a safe haven, and it would hurt them immensely if I were to give up on life. I am conscious of this and the of fact that suicide is a mortal sin, especially since I appear to be in nearly full control of my faculties. But then what of the many people who are alone, who do not have anyone dependent upon them, anyone who would be deeply and permanently scarred by their death? The existence of God must provide a primary reason for each man’s existence, else there is no reason. Some are gifted by disposition to find more joy than sorrow in life, this has been proven to have little to do with actual circumstances, but reason, as in transcendent purpose, must be dependent upon belief in a God, or cosmic knowing deity of some sort.

Thank you, Eleanor, for a poignant and powerful post…

 

[tonyrey]

What rational reason is there to exist?

The** reason** why we are rational!

 

[ThinkingSapien]

Even when a person feels that they are worthless, the one thing that may alleviate their despair is the belief that there is someone out there who values them.

That sounds consistent with my experiences. I’ve had three friends that at some point or another have considered the idea of giving up the fight to survive. I want to share two of those experiences.

In one experience I had a close friend and coworker that sat across from me. A new manager had been brought into the department with the directive to cut the operating cost of the department ( this will become relevant very soon). The friend was going through cancer treatment. It was making her feel terribly ill. To add to the complications the manager that had been brought in found a loophole where she found a way to fire the friend because of the cancer treatment. Because of the expense of the treatments she would not be able to be able to continue to pay for them after being laid off. One person was able to step in and advise her of a way to prevent being cut off from her medical insurance. But she didn’t want to continue. She just wanted to stop treatments, die, and get the pain over with. It took a lot of affection from close friends and close family to encourage her to continue the suffering a little while longer. I’m happy to say that after a few more weeks of treatment the cancer responded and they were able to start lowering the dossage and her suffering.

In another situation a friend was going through a bad financial situationand being continually stressed by things in her work life and her home life. The straw that broke the camels back was shen she got laid off and was not able to get a job. She tried to get help from those that she thought to be close friends and her church. They offered prayer (and she didn’t find this very comforting). She started talking about taking a bottle of pain killers and ending her suffering for good. That’s when I stepped in along with some one else and started taking care of her mortgage and some other bills while both expressing that we didn’t want her to suffer or die. We also reminded her of the impact her demise would have on her daughter. Like the previous situation we were able to postpone her taking destructive actions. After a few months a third person caught word of what was going on and was able to do some things at her place of employment to get her hired. This changed the situation such that we were able to cease the financial assistance and since then we’ve all worked with her in acquiring newer skills in higher demand to improve her employability.

As I mentioned in my first post rational thought can be motivated by irrational motivations (rational thought has more dependencies on irrational motivations than I’ve seen acknowledged in these forums). In both situations we let the suffering ladies know about how much we cared about them, how they would be missed, and the feelings and impacts that their demises would have on those to which there was an emotional attachment. That’s the part that one could label as irrational. The desire to avoid these consequences motivated the thoughts for actions that should (contingency) be followed to avoid these consequences.

With that being said, I don’t think the will to survive can be completely divorced from the motivating irrational factors. I don’t expect there to be much success among those that try to support a completely rational foundation for survival; with a little bit of digging I expect an irrational motivation for the rational reason to be found which will provide a way to invalidate and claims that basis provided is completely rational.