If we are not justified in Baptism...Then Christ died in vain

[De_Maria]

Yeah, you sort of have it all wrong.

Yes.

Yes, I put my trust in God that what he says in his word respecting those that put their trust in him is true. What he promises, I believe he is able to perform.

I cannot know that. I put my hope in Christ that He will preserve me and keep me, but there is an element of free will in all of this. God is not in the business of keeping us against our will. If I choose in some future time and place to reject his love and his grace–if I lose faith in Him, the kind of faith that I’m willing to stake my life on that what He says is true–then I will be accountable for that rejection, and if I die unrepentant, then I will be condemned by my sin. This is why it is so important for Christians to continually rely upon the Spirit of God. None of us on our own can do what is needed to be saved. It requires continued submission to Christ and continued faith and trust in him. Faith is the key and the starting point.

No. I do not.

Well, AbideWithMe and I were trying to tell you as gently as possible that you were wrong about “all” evangelicals and “all” Protestants. I don’t know if its that some Catholics just come into contact with OSAS Christians and this influences how they see things or if it is some kind of communication problem, since OSAS and non-OSAS evangelicals often use the same language but give that language different definitions. In any case, you are not the only Catholic I’ve talked to on CAF that presumes that OSAS is somehow the Protestant or evangelical default position. It is not, but I’ve already explained that in enough detail.

That’s awesome. So, why are you not Catholic? Since you understand the authority of the Church. And you have justification by faith and works correct. How do you justify Luther leaving the Church and your continuing outside the Church?

I don’t see OSAS in this passage.

Wonderful.

I see the sheep externalizing their faith in Christ. They believed in Christ, and they obeyed him and lived out his teachings because they believed he was who he said he was. The goats on the other hand may have mentally believed in who Christ was, they heard him speak and they were convinced enough to identify with him, but they didn’t believe in him enough to give a thirsty person something to drink or a hungry person some food. They really didn’t know Jesus because if they had known him–if they had trusted in him–they would have had his compassion and his love. Even more, they would have expressed his compassion and his love. If they had been “Spirit filled” (to use Pentecostal language), they would not have been able to contain the love of Christ. His love would be overflowing.

That is in perfect agreement with Catholic Teaching.

I think you’re reading a lot of stuff in this verse that isn’t there.

That’s because you don’t hold the Traditions of Jesus Christ. That is why Protestants have so much trouble understanding Scripture. They seem to believe that we are to discover the meaning of Scripture. That’s why there are so many versions of Protestantism.

But we know what Scripture says because we have the Traditions from which New Testament Scripture was written. Jesus established Traditions. The Church wrote the New Testament based upon these Traditions.

However, I think you’ll find that Catholic conceptions of pastoral authority and Protestant conceptions of pastoral authority are not that different.

You’re a first.

I have not met any Protestants who believe in Pastoral authority. Much less any who believe Protestant conception of Pastoral authority is similar.

Well, except for Episcopalians.

The Bible does say, “And he gave the apostles, the prophets, the evangelists, the shepherds and teachers” (Ephesians 4:11). Protestants generally recognize that there are evangelists, shepherds, and teachers in the Church today (apostles and prophets is a lot more complicated and would take a whole thread on its own to discuss adequately). Other places in scripture talks about people gifted with leadership and administrative skills. They have authority to lead, administer, pastor, and discipline.

I’ve not met any Protestant who felt obliged to follow anyone with whom they disagreed about a bible verse or anything. That is why they shop for churches.

Catholics go to Catholic Church.
Protestants go where they agree with the Pastor. Are you sure you and Abidewithme are simply not exceptional in this regard.

If Catholic and Pentecostal doctrine are so similar, why don’t you simply begin to attend a Catholic Church. I’m sure there is one near you.

Sincerely,

De Maria

 

[ltwin]

That’s awesome. So, why are you not Catholic? Since you understand the authority of the Church. And you have justification by faith and works correct. How do you justify Luther leaving the Church and your continuing outside the Church?

Well, I don’t think we would agree completely about the nature of the Church’s authority. I presume your view of what “the Church” is conforms to Catholic teaching. Pentecostals do not view “the Church” in the same way that Catholics do. We don’t identify it with any specific institutional manifestation.

You’re a first.

I have not met any Protestants who believe in Pastoral authority. Much less any who believe Protestant conception of Pastoral authority is similar.

Well, except for Episcopalians.

I suppose it depends on the type of person you are talking to. Given that we live in a secular, free society, there is a lot of license for people to switch their religious views like they change shoes. That is not so much a reflection of specific churches or traditions as it is a reflection of American culture. Some people exercise their right to be a member of a church and ignore that church’s teachings, others choose to switch to a different church if they don’t like something, and others choose not to be affiliated with any religion at all.

I’ve not met any Protestant who felt obliged to follow anyone with whom they disagreed about a bible verse or anything. That is why they shop for churches.

Catholics go to Catholic Church.
Protestants go where they agree with the Pastor.

Well, Protestant churches, at least ones like Baptists or Pentecostals, may give more latitude for personal interpretation in areas where the Bible is unclear; however, there are still doctrines and things that are non-negotiable when you join a church.

When someone wants to join my church, they are given a form that asks several questions: “Have you accepted Jesus Christ as your Lord and Savior (John 3:5-8)” and when; “Have you been baptized in water (Matthew 28:19)”; “Are you willing to contribute regularly to the support of this church by the scriptural method of tithes and offerings (Malachi 3:10, 1 Corinthians 16:2, 2 Corinthians 7:7)?” And then a “Covenant” is signed and agreed to by the prospective member:

*I agree by the grace of God to abide by the standards of the word of God and by the government of this church, to attend the church services faithfully, and to work in harmony with others of like precious faith for the promotion of the kingdom of God, for the edifying of the body of Christ and for the betterment of the church.

I shall endeavor to the best of my ability to walk in the light of God’s word: however, shall I change my doctrinal beliefs or cease to live a Godly life, I shall consider it right to be removed from the membership of this church.

I understand that before my membership is approved that I will be asked to attend a membership class. *

While there are Protestants who “church hop,” the phenomenon is not something that is celebrated among Protestants. In fact, people who church hop probably church hop because they can’t last in a single church for any period of time. I can’t tell you how much church drama can be caused by church hoppers. They may only stay for a while, but they can leave behind lasting damage. Many church hoppers thrive on dysfunction and confusion, and they bring it with them wherever they go.

Are you sure you and Abidewithme are simply not exceptional in this regard.

Yes, I’m sure. While it does happen, church hopping is frowned upon. My church doesn’t think that everyone should come to my church, only those who God has called. But we do teach that people need to find where God has called them and stay there. My family only left our church once in my life and that was a time when the church was very dysfunctional. The church is not affiliated with any larger denomination or church, so when there is conflict it has to be solved internally. We stayed for as long as we could, but then we had to leave. We spent several months at a Pentecostal Holiness church that was very similar to our old church. When my old church was healthy again, we went back. My family is still there today.

The important thing in that story is that we didn’t leave on doctrinal grounds. We left because the levels of conflict within the church became intolerable. Many times people leave churches not because they disagree on doctrinal points, but for other reasons that may be good reasons to leave a church or maybe not so good reasons.

If Catholic and Pentecostal doctrine are so similar, why don’t you simply begin to attend a Catholic Church. I’m sure there is one near you.

Well, Pentecostals descend from the Catholic Church by way of Anglicanism. John Wesley was an Anglican priest and the founder of Methodism. He is the grandfather of Pentecostalism. So there are similarities. However, Pentecostals do not recognize the Catholic Church’s claims of being the one true church or the Pope’s claims of papal infallibility. Some Catholic doctrines, like Marian veneration or the cult of the saints, seem too similar to idolatry for Pentecostals to accept or condone. Also, Pentecostals dislike formal liturgy, preferring instead to allow the Holy Spirit to move as he sees fit.

Other differences, like tongues and other spiritual gifts, have sort of narrowed over the years as the Catholic Charismatic movement has taken off.

 

[De_Maria]

Well, I don’t think we would agree completely about the nature of the Church’s authority. I presume your view of what “the Church” is conforms to Catholic teaching. Pentecostals do not view “the Church” in the same way that Catholics do. We don’t identify it with any specific institutional manifestation.

Hm? But you said:

1. My pastor and other spiritual leaders will be held accountable for how they have lead me and what they have taught me. Therefore, I should respect, honor, and obey their godly counsel.There is nothing about confession in this verse.

If that is the case, in what way do you differ from Catholic Teaching? You either find your church authoritative or you don’t. You either believe your church leaders are accountable to God for your soul or you don’t. Where’s the middle ground there?

I suppose it depends on the type of person you are talking to. Given that we live in a secular, free society, there is a lot of license for people to switch their religious views like they change shoes. That is not so much a reflection of specific churches or traditions as it is a reflection of American culture. Some people exercise their right to be a member of a church and ignore that church’s teachings, others choose to switch to a different church if they don’t like something, and others choose not to be affiliated with any religion at all.

Well, Protestant churches, at least ones like Baptists or Pentecostals, may give more latitude for personal interpretation in areas where the Bible is unclear; however, there are still doctrines and things that are non-negotiable when you join a church.

When someone wants to join my church, they are given a form that asks several questions: “Have you accepted Jesus Christ as your Lord and Savior (John 3:5-8)” and when; “Have you been baptized in water (Matthew 28:19)”; “Are you willing to contribute regularly to the support of this church by the scriptural method of tithes and offerings (Malachi 3:10, 1 Corinthians 16:2, 2 Corinthians 7:7)?” And then a “Covenant” is signed and agreed to by the prospective member:

*I agree by the grace of God to abide by the standards of the word of God and by the government of this church, to attend the church services faithfully, and to work in harmony with others of like precious faith for the promotion of the kingdom of God, for the edifying of the body of Christ and for the betterment of the church.

I shall endeavor to the best of my ability to walk in the light of God’s word: however, shall I change my doctrinal beliefs or cease to live a Godly life, I shall consider it right to be removed from the membership of this church.

I understand that before my membership is approved that I will be asked to attend a membership class. *

I can’t say that I disagree with your efforts. But considering that you don’t believe in the concept of Church as we do, why would you expect anyone to submit to your authority?

Here’s the problem as I see it. The Catholic Church has authority which traces back to Jesus. Whereas, the authority of your Church traces back to Luther at best. How do you expect your authority to be recognized, but not the Church which was established by Jesus Christ?

cont’d

 

[De_Maria]

cont’d

While there are Protestants who “church hop,” the phenomenon is not something that is celebrated among Protestants. In fact, people who church hop probably church hop because they can’t last in a single church for any period of time. I can’t tell you how much church drama can be caused by church hoppers. They may only stay for a while, but they can leave behind lasting damage. Many church hoppers thrive on dysfunction and confusion, and they bring it with them wherever they go.

Yes, I’m sure. While it does happen, church hopping is frowned upon. My church doesn’t think that everyone should come to my church, only those who God has called. But we do teach that people need to find where God has called them and stay there. My family only left our church once in my life and that was a time when the church was very dysfunctional. The church is not affiliated with any larger denomination or church, so when there is conflict it has to be solved internally. We stayed for as long as we could, but then we had to leave. We spent several months at a Pentecostal Holiness church that was very similar to our old church. When my old church was healthy again, we went back. My family is still there today.

The important thing in that story is that we didn’t leave on doctrinal grounds. We left because the levels of conflict within the church became intolerable. Many times people leave churches not because they disagree on doctrinal points, but for other reasons that may be good reasons to leave a church or maybe not so good reasons.

We don’t leave the Body of Christ, because it is synonymous with leaving Christ.

Well, Pentecostals descend from the Catholic Church by way of Anglicanism. John Wesley was an Anglican priest and the founder of Methodism. He is the grandfather of Pentecostalism. So there are similarities. However, Pentecostals do not recognize the Catholic Church’s claims of being the one true church or the Pope’s claims of papal infallibility. Some Catholic doctrines, like Marian veneration or the cult of the saints, seem too similar to idolatry for Pentecostals to accept or condone. Also, Pentecostals dislike formal liturgy, preferring instead to allow the Holy Spirit to move as he sees fit.

But you recognize that your church descended from the Catholic Church. Now, if that is so, then answer this question. How many Churches did Jesus Christ establish?

Other differences, like tongues and other spiritual gifts, have sort of narrowed over the years as the Catholic Charismatic movement has taken off.

You are mistaken. The gifts of the Spirit have always been part of the Catholic Church. Study the Saints and you will see that they displayed all the gifts of the Spirit from the time of the Apostles.

Sincerely,

De Maria

 

[guanophore]

Well, Pentecostals descend from the Catholic Church by way of Anglicanism. John Wesley was an Anglican priest and the founder of Methodism. He is the grandfather of Pentecostalism.

De Maria it would be of great benefit to you to pay close attention to this theological lineage.
You have stated that most of your communication with Protestants has been on CARM, which is a Reformed site that comes from a different theological tradition. Angilcanism retains the concept of faith, working through love, and this is retained in Methodism, from which the Pentecostal ecclesial communities emanate. I have found it frustrating throughout reading this thread than you seem to be so intent upon forcing Itwin into your preconceived notions of what "evangelicals " believe, rather than learning from the discussion what is actually believed. I think you approach is counterproductive to useful dialogue.

A little study on your part of the historical theology will reduce the frustration in those with whom you are engaging dialogue. Here is a simple chart:

graceonlinelibrary.org/reformed-theology/arminianism/calvinism-vs-arminianism-comparison-chart/

You will find that Arminian evangelicals are much closer to Catholicism in the major points, especiallly on the point that one can enter salvation, but fail to attain it.

 

[guanophore]

You are mistaken. The gifts of the Spirit have always been part of the Catholic Church. Study the Saints and you will see that they displayed all the gifts of the Spirit from the time of the Apostles.

Sincerely,

De Maria

You seem to be jumping to conclusions about what your opponent is saying, rather than actually reading, understanding, and responding to what is being said. Itwin is not “mistaken” as you charge here. Itwin stated that “differences” between Catholics and Pentecostals are less because of the Catholic Charismatic Renewal. He did not say that charismatic gifts have not been present previously.

From a Pentecostal point of view, the gifts of the HS should be expereinced and exercised by all believers, as a sign of them having received the HS. On the other hand the charismatic gifts have been de-emphasized by the CC in favor of the sacramental life. The average Catholic in the pew does not even know what the charismatic gifts are, much less believe that they have any that they should be using.

What the charismatic renewal has done is restore the experience and exercise of these gifts abundantly to lay persons (not just rare and holy mystics), which is consistent with what Pentecostals consider the normal Christian life.

 

[ltwin]

If that is the case, in what way do you differ from Catholic Teaching? You either find your church authoritative or you don’t. You either believe your church leaders are accountable to God for your soul or you don’t. Where’s the middle ground there?

My leaders are authoritative as far as the authority to lead the local congregation goes. However, they are not infallible, and they do not constitute a magisterium. There is nothing like the supreme authority that is found in the Catholic Church. While becoming a member of a congregation naturally includes submission to the doctrine and discipline of the congregation, there is never even an assumption that the congregation’s leadership is “infallible.” The possibility of error is always recognized.

I can’t say that I disagree with your efforts. But considering that you don’t believe in the concept of Church as we do, why would you expect anyone to submit to your authority?

We don’t “expect” anyone to. My church simply seeks to reach out to those who do not know Christ with the message of the Gospel, especially those who more “respectable” congregations in our town tend not to welcome, such as those with criminal records or histories of drug abuse, etc. Our first priority is to introduce people to Jesus. Once they have met Him and want to dedicate their lives to him and, if God has told them to make our congregation their church home, then they join us as members and assume the responsibilities of that membership.

Here’s the problem as I see it. The Catholic Church has authority which traces back to Jesus. Whereas, the authority of your Church traces back to Luther at best. How do you expect your authority to be recognized, but not the Church which was established by Jesus Christ?

As we see it, all born again Christians are the Church that Christ established. Luther really isn’t that important to Pentecostals.

We don’t leave the Body of Christ, because it is synonymous with leaving Christ.

We didn’t leave the body of Christ. We left a local congregation of believers.

But you recognize that your church descended from the Catholic Church. Now, if that is so, then answer this question. How many Churches did Jesus Christ establish?

Pentecostalism is not a “church.” It is a movement of many different denominations, individual congregations, and individual Christians. There is no central organization that directs it.

We know Christ established only one Church. It is the Church of the redeemed, and they can be found in many denominations and local churches all over the world.

You are mistaken. The gifts of the Spirit have always been part of the Catholic Church. Study the Saints and you will see that they displayed all the gifts of the Spirit from the time of the Apostles.

I never said they weren’t. However, until the Catholic Charismatic Movement emerged in the 1960s and 70s, you did not see glossolalia exhibited by Catholics in large numbers. Nor was there any expectation that ordinary Catholics should expect to demonstrate the charismata in their own lives.

 

[De_Maria]

De Maria it would be of great benefit to you

I thought I was paying very close attention.

You have stated that most of your communication with Protestants has been on CARM, which is a Reformed site that comes from a different theological tradition.

Correct.

Angilcanism retains the concept of faith, working through love, and this is retained in Methodism, from which the Pentecostal ecclesial communities emanate. I have found it frustrating throughout reading this thread than you seem to be so intent upon forcing Itwin into your preconceived notions of what "evangelicals " believe,

Forcing? I’ll tell you as I told Itwin. If I have his theology wrong, all he need do is correct me. But I guarantee this. Wherever his theology contradicts Catholic Teaching, his theology is wrong.

Do you disagree with that?

rather than learning from the discussion what is actually believed.

I suggest you read closer. Did he not say, “Well, Pentecostals descend from the Catholic Church…”?

That is what I read and understood. That is the crack in his theology which I am now exploring. Did you miss it?

I think you approach is counterproductive to useful dialogue.

And you are who, precisely? The master of all debaters?

A little study on your part of the historical theology will reduce the frustration in those with whom you are engaging dialogue. Here is a simple chart:

If you like charts, you read it. I prefer to find out from the person I’m addressing, what it is they believe. Do you have a problem with that?

You will find that Arminian evangelicals are much closer to Catholicism in the major points, especiallly on the point that one can enter salvation, but fail to attain it.

1. If you were following this thread, as you claimed, you would know that we have moved to the subject of authority.
2. I’m not here to learn about Arminianism. I’m here to teach Arminians about Catholicism.
3. Whether Arminians are close to Catholicism or not, is a moot point. They are still not Catholic and many of them are against the Teachings of the Catholic Church.

Sincerely,

De Maria

 

[De_Maria]

You seem to be jumping to conclusions about what your opponent is saying,

I disagree. But if you can show where I jumped to conclusion on some matter, show me.

rather than actually reading, understanding, and responding to what is being said. Itwin is not “mistaken” as you charge here. Itwin stated that “differences” between Catholics and Pentecostals are less because of the Catholic Charismatic Renewal. He did not say that charismatic gifts have not been present previously.

Here’s what he said:

Quote:
Other differences, like tongues and other spiritual gifts, have sort of narrowed over the years as the Catholic Charismatic movement has taken off.

I take that to mean that he believes the Catholic Charismatic movement is something new in the Catholic Church which has recently taken hold. I think that is a logical conclusion since many Catholics and Protestants believe that is the case.

But I’ll let Itwin clarify what he actually meant.

From a Pentecostal point of view, the gifts of the HS should be expereinced and exercised by all believers, as a sign of them having received the HS. On the other hand the charismatic gifts have been de-emphasized by the CC in favor of the sacramental life. The average Catholic in the pew does not even know what the charismatic gifts are, much less believe that they have any that they should be using.

Hm? I thought you were a Catholic. But if you are a Protestant who wants to debate with me about what you believe, I welcome it.

However, I don’t debate third hand. Itwin can speak for himself. Unless he is your child or something, then I will begin to debate with you and ignore him.

If you have a debate with me about Catholicism, begin it. But if you continue to claim some special knowledge about what Itwin is saying, I will begin to ignore you.

What the charismatic renewal has done is restore the experience and exercise of these gifts abundantly to lay persons (not just rare and holy mystics), which is consistent with what Pentecostals consider the normal Christian life.

That is not even part of this debate. Goodbye.

Sincerely,

De Maria

 

[De_Maria]

My leaders are authoritative as far as the authority to lead the local congregation goes. However, they are not infallible, and they do not constitute a magisterium. There is nothing like the supreme authority that is found in the Catholic Church. While becoming a member of a congregation naturally includes submission to the doctrine and discipline of the congregation, there is never even an assumption that the congregation’s leadership is “infallible.” The possibility of error is always recognized.

Then how do you explain the existence of the Bible? Was it written by men or not?

We don’t “expect” anyone to. My church simply seeks to reach out to those who do not know Christ with the message of the Gospel, especially those who more “respectable” congregations in our town tend not to welcome, such as those with criminal records or histories of drug abuse, etc. Our first priority is to introduce people to Jesus. Once they have met Him and want to dedicate their lives to him and, if God has told them to make our congregation their church home, then they join us as members and assume the responsibilities of that membership.

Interesting.

Its almost as though you are judging these “more respectable” congretations. Do you think these congregations are doing something wrong?

As we see it, all born again Christians are the Church that Christ established. Luther really isn’t that important to Pentecostals.

That’s interesting. You do accept his doctrines of Scripture alone and faith alone, don’t you? How about the other Solas? He is the man who more fully defined them, isn’t he? Don’t get me wrong. I wouldn’t have anything to do with him either.

We didn’t leave the body of Christ. We left a local congregation of believers.

Anyone who leaves the Catholic Church, leaves the Body of Christ.

Pentecostalism is not a “church.”

I’m pretty sure I’ve seen some buildings marked “Pentecostal church”. In fact, I remember two in my neighborhood where I grew up.

A Google of Pentecostal Church brings this up.
Pentecostalism is also a movement. Yet there are Pentecostal Churches.

So, some folks consider their form of Pentecostalism, a Church.

It is a movement of many different denominations, individual congregations, and individual Christians. There is no central organization that directs it.

Protestantism is descending to its logical conclusion. Pretty soon, a man will need nothing but a Bible.

We know Christ established only one Church. It is the Church of the redeemed, and they can be found in many denominations and local churches all over the world.

Lets see what Scripture says:
1 Corinthians 10:17
For we being many are one bread, and one body: for we are all partakers of that one bread.

Romans 6:17
But God be thanked, that ye were the servants of sin, but ye have obeyed from the heart that form of doctrine which was delivered you.

Romans 16:17
Now I beseech you, brethren, mark them which cause divisions and offences contrary to the doctrine which ye have learned; and avoid them.

Matthew 18:17
King James Version (KJV)
17 And if he shall neglect to hear them, tell it unto the church: but if he neglect to hear the church, let him be unto thee as an heathen man and a publican.

Hebrews 5:9
And being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him;

It seems the redeemed will hold to the doctrine of Jesus Christ.

I never said they weren’t. However, until the Catholic Charismatic Movement emerged in the 1960s and 70s, you did not see glossolalia exhibited by Catholics in large numbers. Nor was there any expectation that ordinary Catholics should expect to demonstrate the charismata in their own lives.

Nor is it now. Are you saying that it is necessary for one to speak in tongues in order to be a Christian? If not, what is your point?

Here’s what Scripture says about tongues:
Acts 2:4
And they were all filled with the Holy Ghost, and began to speak with other tongues, as the Spirit gave them utterance…11Cretes and Arabians, we do hear them speak in our tongues the wonderful works of God.

Here is an example of a Catholic Saint who has the gift of tongues:
The Gift of Tongues -Being heard and understood by those of other languages
"St Anthony of Padua, one of the chosen disciples and companions of St Francis, whom the latter called his Vicar, was preaching one day before the Pope and the Cardinals in Consistory, there were therefore present at that moment men of different countries- Greeks and Latins, French and Germans, Slavs and English and men of many other different languages and dialects.

"And being inflamed by the Holy Spirit and inspired with apostolic eloquence, he preached and explained the word of God so effectively, devoutly, subtly, clearly and understandably that all who were assembled at that Consistory, although they spoke different languages, clearly and distinctly heard and understood everyone of his words as if he had spoken in each of their languages. Therefore they were all astounded and filled with devotion, for it seemed to them that the former miracle of the Apostles at the time of Pentecost had been renewed, when by the power of the Holy Spirit they spoke in different languages.
miraclesofthesaints.com

That is speaking in tongues. Protestants make confusing and scary sounds which hardly resemble the gift of the Holy Spirit.

Sincerely,

De Maria

 

[AbideWithMe]

De Maria it would be of great benefit to you to pay close attention to this theological lineage.
You have stated that most of your communication with Protestants has been on CARM, which is a Reformed site that comes from a different theological tradition. Angilcanism retains the concept of faith, working through love, and this is retained in Methodism, from which the Pentecostal ecclesial communities emanate. I have found it frustrating throughout reading this thread than you seem to be so intent upon forcing Itwin into your preconceived notions of what "evangelicals " believe, rather than learning from the discussion what is actually believed. I think you approach is counterproductive to useful dialogue.

A little study on your part of the historical theology will reduce the frustration in those with whom you are engaging dialogue. Here is a simple chart:

graceonlinelibrary.org/reformed-theology/arminianism/calvinism-vs-arminianism-comparison-chart/

You will find that Arminian evangelicals are much closer to Catholicism in the major points, especiallly on the point that one can enter salvation, but fail to attain it.

I grew up in an Evangelical Congregational Church which comes from the same Methodist “lineage” as Itwin’s Pentecostal congregation.

While living in Philadelphia I attended a large Presbyterian church (which taught the Perseverance of the Saints) for a year and a half out of curiosity, but my evangelical Methodist background has had a the most influence on me.

So, De Maria, if most of your knowledge of Protestants comes from CARM, that explains why what Itwin and I have said seems outside your experience. I know others have said this to you; I’m just agreeing with what they said. CARM is not to be taking as representative of the Protestant world by any means.

 

[AbideWithMe]

And you are who, precisely? The master of all debaters?

Sincerely,

De Maria

De Maria----

Guanophore was politely giving you some feedback on how you’re coming across to people. It was good advice.

I believe Itwin is a college student. You’ve drawn him into your “debate” on one topic, then you keep adding topic after topic. He’s been very patient in answering you, and in giving his time to you. He’s been more patient than I would be.

 

[ltwin]

Then how do you explain the existence of the Bible? Was it written by men or not?

It was written by men, inspired by the God.

Its almost as though you are judging these “more respectable” congretations. Do you think these congregations are doing something wrong?

I think churches that resemble the local country club more than they resemble the body of Christ are certainly in need of a reality check. I’m not judging anyone. I’m simply remarking on what I have seen within my local church–that people come to our church who would for a variety of reasons not be accepted in many other churches. That is my observation.

That’s interesting. You do accept his doctrines of Scripture alone and faith alone, don’t you? How about the other Solas? He is the man who more fully defined them, isn’t he? Don’t get me wrong. I wouldn’t have anything to do with him either.

We don’t have anything against him, and we do embrace Sola Scriptura and Sola Fide. However, we don’t look at Luther as “a founder” or anything. He is viewed as someone that God used to recover biblical truth, other than that he doesn’t figure that prominently in Pentecostalism.

Anyone who leaves the Catholic Church, leaves the Body of Christ.

I think we’re talking about different things. You seem to be talking about Pentecostals “leaving” the Catholic Church. I’m talking about my family leaving one local church for another.

Anyway, Pentecostals didn’t leave the Catholic Church. Most of the original Pentecostals were never Catholic to begin with.

I’m pretty sure I’ve seen some buildings marked “Pentecostal church”. In fact, I remember two in my neighborhood where I grew up.

A Google of Pentecostal Church brings this up.
Pentecostalism is also a movement. Yet there are Pentecostal Churches.

So, some folks consider their form of Pentecostalism, a Church.

Yes, there are individual churches within the movement which is called Pentecostalism. Pentecostals don’t see themselves as being part of a single institution, like all Catholics belong to the Catholic Church. There is no Pentecostal Church that all Pentecostals belong to.

Nor is it now. Are you saying that it is necessary for one to speak in tongues in order to be a Christian?

No.

If not, what is your point?

My point is that glossolalia is present in the Charismatic Movement, which has been accepted as a legitimate movement within the Catholic Church. Now that at least some Catholics practice glossolalia,. the differences between Pentecostals and Catholics on speaking in tongues has been narrowed.

Here’s what Scripture says about tongues:
Acts 2:4
And they were all filled with the Holy Ghost, and began to speak with other tongues, as the Spirit gave them utterance…11Cretes and Arabians, we do hear them speak in our tongues the wonderful works of God.

Scripture also says:

*Pursue love, and earnestly desire the spiritual gifts, especially that you may prophesy. For one who speaks in a tongue speaks not to men but to God; for no one understands him, but he utters mysteries in the Spirit. On the other hand, the one who prophesies speaks to people for their upbuilding and encouragement and consolation.The one who speaks in a tongue builds up himself, but the one who prophesies builds up the church. Now I want you all to speak in tongues, but even more to prophesy. The one who prophesies is greater than the one who speaks in tongues, unless someone interprets, so that the church may be built up. . . .

Therefore, one who speaks in a tongue should pray that he may interpret. For if I pray in a tongue, my spirit prays but my mind is unfruitful. What am I to do? I will pray with my spirit, but I will pray with my mind also; I will sing praise with my spirit, but I will sing with my mind also.*

(1 Corinthians 14:1-5,13-15)

Here is an example of a Catholic Saint who has the gift of tongues:
The Gift of Tongues -Being heard and understood by those of other languages
"St Anthony of Padua, one of the chosen disciples and companions of St Francis, whom the latter called his Vicar, was preaching one day before the Pope and the Cardinals in Consistory, there were therefore present at that moment men of different countries- Greeks and Latins, French and Germans, Slavs and English and men of many other different languages and dialects.

"And being inflamed by the Holy Spirit and inspired with apostolic eloquence, he preached and explained the word of God so effectively, devoutly, subtly, clearly and understandably that all who were assembled at that Consistory, although they spoke different languages, clearly and distinctly heard and understood everyone of his words as if he had spoken in each of their languages. Therefore they were all astounded and filled with devotion, for it seemed to them that the former miracle of the Apostles at the time of Pentecost had been renewed, when by the power of the Holy Spirit they spoke in different languages.
miraclesofthesaints.com

That is speaking in tongues. Protestants make confusing and scary sounds which hardly resemble the gift of the Holy Spirit.

Pentecostals also believe that speaking in tongues can take the form of speaking human languages, but we don’t limit the gift to simply human language. As St. Paul’s words show, there is more to speaking in unknown tongues than simply speaking an unknown human language.

 

[guanophore]

I thought I was paying very close attention.

On the contrary, the thread clearly indicates that you have consistently made incorrect assumptions about the positions of others.

Forcing? I’ll tell you as I told Itwin. If I have his theology wrong, all he need do is correct me.

He has tried repeatedly to correct you, and you have adamantly continued to tell him that he believes what you assume he believes, rather than what he claims to believe. Most Catholics find it unproductive when non-Catholics come to CAF and insist that Catholics believe things they don’t. We encourage them to debate with us about what we really believe, rather than their erroneous ideas.

But I guarantee this. Wherever his theology contradicts Catholic Teaching, his theology is wrong.

It is very difficult to have a productive conversation with anyone when it begins with an attitude like this. It is even more complicated by the fact that you keep trying to squeeze him into theological positions that he does not, in fact, espouse.

I suggest you read closer. Did he not say, “Well, Pentecostals descend from the Catholic Church…”?

Exactly! And they come to the present day through Anglicanism >Methodism which espouses an Arminian perspective. Evangelicals who espouse Arminian theology are much closer to Catholicism than anyone you will meet on CARM.

That is what I read and understood. That is the crack in his theology which I am now exploring. Did you miss it?

It is not a “crack” it is a commonality. Since they have not embraced the OSAS heresy, they have commonalities with Catholics.

And you are who, precisely?  The master of all debaters?

No, just someone passing by, trying to provide you some feedback on your apologetic style.

If you like charts, you read it. I prefer to find out from the person I’m addressing, what it is they believe. Do you have a problem with that?

No, but you sure seem to. You might want to consider rereading the thread sometime. Perhaps you will be able to see that you are pushing your preconceived notions on your opponent.

1. I’m not here to learn about Arminianism. I’m here to teach Arminians about Catholicism.

The two are not mutually exclusive. The better you understand the historical theology of your opponent in the debate, the more effective your efforts to clarify the differences will be.

Anyway, is it not an arrogance that you should take it upon yourself to “teach” Itwin, if you are not also equally willing to learn from him?

1. Whether Arminians are close to Catholicism or not, is a moot point. They are still not Catholic and many of them are against the Teachings of the Catholic Church.

It is not moot at all. Any and all parts of Catholicism that have been retained among our separated brethren can and should be affirmed. It is not necessary to fix what is not broken! When a non-Catholic can affirm the Apostolic teaching on the Trinity, it is possible to move on to another point. In this case, you were dwelling on the notion of OSAS when it is not a position taken by your partner in debate.

 

[guanophore]

Here’s what he said:

Quote:
Other differences, like tongues and other spiritual gifts, have sort of narrowed over the years as the Catholic Charismatic movement has taken off.

I take that to mean that he believes the Catholic Charismatic movement is something new in the Catholic Church which has recently taken hold. I think that is a logical conclusion since many Catholics and Protestants believe that is the case.

But I’ll let Itwin clarify what he actually meant.

He did clarify. Although what you thought he meant was not his meaning, in fact, what you have stated here is true. The Catholic Charismatic movement is, indeed, something new since Vatican 2, the like of which has never been seen since the days of Pentecost.

I thougth you were a Catholic.

Yes. I am a Catholic who is having problems with your interactional style.

If you have a debate with me about Catholicism, begin it. But if you continue to claim some special knowledge about what Itwin is saying, I will begin to ignore you.

No “special knowledge”, just what seems obvious from readng the thread. It is interesting that you are so quick to ignore what you don’t want to hear. Maybe that is why you have been ignoring what others on this thread have tried to communicate as well?

 

[guanophore]

Nor is it now. Are you saying that it is necessary for one to speak in tongues in order to be a Christian? If not, what is your point?

Here’s what Scripture says about tongues:
Acts 2:4
And they were all filled with the Holy Ghost, and began to speak with other tongues, as the Spirit gave them utterance…11Cretes and Arabians, we do hear them speak in our tongues the wonderful works of God.

Here is an example of a Catholic Saint who has the gift of tongues:
The Gift of Tongues -Being heard and understood by those of other languages
"St Anthony of Padua, one of the chosen disciples and companions of St Francis, whom the latter called his Vicar, was preaching one day before the Pope and the Cardinals in Consistory, there were therefore present at that moment men of different countries- Greeks and Latins, French and Germans, Slavs and English and men of many other different languages and dialects.

"And being inflamed by the Holy Spirit and inspired with apostolic eloquence, he preached and explained the word of God so effectively, devoutly, subtly, clearly and understandably that all who were assembled at that Consistory, although they spoke different languages, clearly and distinctly heard and understood everyone of his words as if he had spoken in each of their languages. Therefore they were all astounded and filled with devotion, for it seemed to them that the former miracle of the Apostles at the time of Pentecost had been renewed, when by the power of the Holy Spirit they spoke in different languages.
miraclesofthesaints.com

That is speaking in tongues. Protestants make confusing and scary sounds which hardly resemble the gift of the Holy Spirit.

Sincerely,

De Maria

This is an example of one of the varieties of tongues, but there are many. It is true that some people make scary sounds and behave in ways that hardly resemble the gift of the HS but this does not nullify the valid varieties of tongues that exist.

 

[De_Maria]

I grew up in an Evangelical Congregational Church which comes from the same Methodist “lineage” as Itwin’s Pentecostal congregation.

While living in Philadelphia I attended a large Presbyterian church (which taught the Perseverance of the Saints) for a year and a half out of curiosity, but my evangelical Methodist background has had a the most influence on me.

So, De Maria, if most of your knowledge of Protestants comes from CARM, that explains why what Itwin and I have said seems outside your experience. I know others have said this to you; I’m just agreeing with what they said. CARM is not to be taking as representative of the Protestant world by any means.

CARM is old history. We are not discussing CARM. Never were. It was mentioned in passing. Please catch up.

I hope all is well. Been hearing about the snow which is now pounding the East Coast.

Sincerely,

De Maria

 

[AbideWithMe]

CARM is old history. We are not discussing CARM. Never were. It was mentioned in passing. Please catch up.

I hope all is well. Been hearing about the snow which is now pounding the East Coast.

Sincerely,

De Maria

Where I live, we barely missed this latest nor’easter with the snow. But, yes, parts of PA, NJ, NY and CT got up to a foot of snow.

Many people close to the coast are still without power, gas is being rationed in NJ and NY, and many people lost homes, cars, or lives due to trees falling on them or due to flooding or fire.

While I just have a mess in my yard from three tall fir trees that blew over, friends who have gone to NYC to help family members say the devastation is shocking in some areas.

It’s been unseasonably cold here till yesterday and today, with little sunshine from Nov. 4 till this past Thursday. I feel terrible for all the people in the freezing cold who don’t have electricity yet.

Please keep these people in your prayers.

 

[guanophore]

It’s been unseasonably cold here till yesterday and today, with little sunshine from Nov. 4 till this past Thursday. I feel terrible for all the people in the freezing cold who don’t have electricity yet.

Please keep these people in your prayers.

You are all in our prayers.

 

[De_Maria]

He did clarify.

Yes, he did. But your message tickled my gmail first. And I’m not a mindreader or a prophet. I responded to yours and then I don’t remember if I had time to get to his that evening or not.

The rest of your post is simply your personal opinion. There are more people who like my style than those who don’t. If that’s all you have to talk about, this is the last message of yours to which I will respond.

Sincerely,

De Maria