If we don't necessarily need to believe in Noah's ark as a historical reality, do we have to believe in Noah's existence?

[rossum]

If God has the power to create the universe and life, then he must have all the power necessary to make the Ark story happen also.

Which would make God deceptive, since the evidence we see in the rocks and DNA around us show that there was no recent worldwide flood causing genetic bottlenecks in all land tetrapod species.

We do have evidence for large local floods, but the evidence is against a worldwide flood. The evidence shows that the overly literal interpretation of the text of Genesis is wrong.

rossum

 

[Eric_Hyom]

Which would make God deceptive, since the evidence we see in the rocks and DNA around us show that there was no recent worldwide flood causing genetic bottlenecks in all land tetrapod species.

You could equally say God is deceptive because we have no proof as to how the universe came into being, or how life started on Earth. There is probably more about science that we don’t know, than we do.

The story about the flood, was more to do with the evil of mankind and how people were disobeying God.

 

[Autumn-Smoke]

The story about the flood, was more to do with the evil of mankind and how people were disobeying God.

Yes, very true. It is also a picture of atonement, since the word ‘pitch’, which the ark was covered in, both within and without, stems from the Hebrew word ‘atonement’.

The Hebrew Word for atonement is “kipur” with the verb form being “kaphar” and means “to cover, purge, make reconciliation.” The same Hebrew word used for pitch is “kaphar” and that is what the Ark was covered with. The floodwaters were indicative of the judgement of God on mankind, so we see God’s judgement upon mankind, but the righteous being saved by his judgement through atonement. This could be seen as prophetic, as it looks forward to the future salvation that God would make for us through Christ.

(not meaning to say that I don’t believe the story was literal, because I do)

 

[Spyridon]

You would be goin against every single Doctor of the Church if you believed Noah was a fairy tale.

World in Genesis 6 does not mean the entire globe. The flood was localized to either Africa or the Near East.

 

[Aloysium]

The story of Noah is physically, psychologically and spiritually true.

Physically speaking, Noah to my way of thinking, would be an actual person. As opposed to other sacred writings in the world, we have in Christ, God actually entering into His creation to bring it into communion, within Himself. The Bible is historical, in addition to ontological, religious truth. Jesus in that respect is at the centre of time. What follows later, tells of Him; before His entry into time, He was foretold. The relationship between mankind and God, His will and efforts to facilitate our reconciliation with Him are revealed in the person who was Noah. I believe there was a flood that encompassed the world as it was known to Noah and that he did build an ark that would have contained his family and animals. The water would have destroyed those neighbours, who had abandoned God’s ways. Some people ask why God does not get rid of people who do evil. He does not because we all do evil and we are all His children, whom He loves. It would likely have turned out that had He done otherwise, all humanity would have perished - no Jewish people and no community to take their place to receive Jesus.

Psychologically, we are under the influence of very powerful emotions that may conflict with external and internal reality. We have to manage them so as to not harm others and to not hurt ourselves. Around the time of our first communion, which grants the grace to do so, we learn to control those feelings. They go under water, they become unconscious, although the events and stresses of life may awaken them. The story of Noah resonates with what we experience in ourselves as we grow into childhood, accepting our responsibilities.

Spiritually it is a revelation of the cross, as was the scene in the Garden. The wood of the tree from which we appropriated what belonged to God, now embraces us. Christ should have been at the Centre of our garden, our relationship with the world and each other. But here in Noah, He washes away the sin and reconstitutes what should have been in a new Garden, in the temple of the ark and in our hearts.

 

[niceatheist]

You would be goin against every single Doctor of the Church if you believed Noah was a fairy tale.

And? Is it a requirement of Catholicism that every belief a Doctor of the Church held must be a scientific and empirical fact?

 

[Spyridon]

No, but when all the Doctors agree on a theological topic, it cannot be lightly discarded.

It is part of our Faith that there was a man named Noah who took all the animals around him into an ark and survived a massive flood.

Whether that flood was global or localized, and whether literally every animal on earth came or just animals from that local area, and whether he was literally hundreds of years old - those are legitimate topics of debate where differing opinions are permissible.

But to dismiss the entire story out of hand and say it’s totally made up is not permissible, at least not from a Catholic Christian perspective.

 

[Aloysium]

And, there should be discussion because there is no evidence that we did not live for centuries in the remote past, before there were historical records other than oral traditions and drawings on cave walls. It’s purely an assumption based on how long we can expect to live now, an assumption that would also preclude a resurrection and eternal life. People should have an open mind about such matters.

 

[twf]

More Evangelical sola Scriptura sources who are no friend of the Catholic Church…
interesting how people on this forum, when they find that the Bishops don’t support their opinions, turn to Protestant “authorities” like the “Institute for Creation Research”.

 

[twf]

I would say it would be difficult to dismiss the person of Noah… but that doesn’t mean that his story, as relayed in Genesis, isn’t embroidered with the origin mythology genre of ancient Israel… was their a literal global flood and did two of every single animal cram onto a ship? No. We aren’t required to believe that. But that doesn’t mean that there wasn’t a Noah period. Perhaps he was a primordial prophet who saved God’s people during an ancient Middle Eastern flood.

 

[Leferdion]

I also believe men lived longer before

 

[rossum]

And, there should be discussion because there is no evidence that we did not live for centuries in the remote past, before there were historical records other than oral traditions and drawings on cave walls.

There is evidence in skeletons, teeth and suchlike from early settlements. On average people lived shorter lives than we do. Infant mortality was very high. If you survived that, then you probably died between 50 and 60. 70 was a great age. There are many many skeletons of people who died before 100 years old. There are no skeletons of people who died over 150 years old. There is evidence, and it indicated that 800 years is not correct.

It’s purely an assumption based on how long we can expect to live now, an assumption that would also preclude a resurrection and eternal life. People should have an open mind about such matters.

No it is not an assumption. It is an evidence-based conclusion from the evidence of contemporary remains. Noah living 800 years is as believable as Sumerian kings or Chinese emperors living 10,000 years. Folk-stories often exaggerate the age of ancestors.

rossum

 

[Aloysium]

I’m not sure what difference it makes actually.
However, I am interested in how one can determine the age of the person when they passed away from skeletal remains.
I’d also like to know what historical time periods you are talking about.

 

[Carmel]

I would say it would be difficult to dismiss the person of Noah… but that doesn’t mean that his story, as relayed in Genesis, isn’t embroidered with the origin mythology genre of ancient Israel… was their a literal global flood and did two of every single animal cram onto a ship? No. We aren’t required to believe that. But that doesn’t mean that there wasn’t a Noah period. Perhaps he was a primordial prophet who saved God’s people during an ancient Middle Eastern flood

A large manmade object was photographed by reconnaisance pilot flying along the Eastern Turkey border during WW2 .It was and still is about one third from the top of Mount Ararat. I think it is apx. 500 ft. long . This ark shaped vessel is partly embedded in ice in the mountainside.
I wonder how it got there . .

 

[twf]

This account is very much disputed.

 

[Carmel]

This account is very much disputed.

I think there have been more recent satellite images also .

 

[twf]

Can you provide a source?
There could be various explanations for an ancient structure on top of a mountain. That doesn’t explain away the entire discipline of modern geology as YECers seek to…

 

[Carmel]

Theres ten or twelve interesting videos on Youtube doing a comprehensive study of the phenomenom.

 

[rossum]

However, I am interested in how one can determine the age of the person when they passed away from skeletal remains.

Teeth, bone growth, skull sutures, arthritis and there are probably a few other indicators that an expert would know that I do not.

I’d also like to know what historical time periods you are talking about.

Noah’s Ark was wood, not metal, so he was probably late Neolithic, with agriculture and meat animals. Life expectancy at birth then was around thirty. If you lived to fifteen, avoiding all the childhood diseases, then you would probably reach 45 to 50 before you died. See The Bases of Paleodemography

The early Bronze Age was similar. Thirty-three at birth, rising to 50 at age fifteen.

Best to treat the story of Noah as a parable. The details of the story are not important; the moral of the story is.

rossum

 

[rossum]

A large manmade object was photographed by reconnaisance pilot flying along the Eastern Turkey border during WW2 .It was and still is about one third from the top of Mount Ararat. I think it is apx. 500 ft. long . This ark shaped vessel is partly embedded in ice in the mountainside.

I wonder how it got there . .

If you are talking about the Durupınar site then it is a natural rock formation that looks like a big boat. It is rock, not wood.

rossum