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BlackFriar
Guest
These are perhaps labels rather than titles?
The question is one of honorific titles.
The question is one of honorific titles.
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BlackFriar
Guest
Here are the current procedures for electing a Pope.
http://w2.vatican.va/content/john-p...ii_apc_22021996_universi-dominici-gregis.html
Re the candidate him or herself there appear to be no restrictions whatsoever mentioned. Its entirely up to the discretion of the Conclave it seems. No age, sex ,ordination, infirmity etc etc restrictions seem to be mentioned.
http://w2.vatican.va/content/john-p...ii_apc_22021996_universi-dominici-gregis.html
Re the candidate him or herself there appear to be no restrictions whatsoever mentioned. Its entirely up to the discretion of the Conclave it seems. No age, sex ,ordination, infirmity etc etc restrictions seem to be mentioned.
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LilyM
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Let us be clear - a woman can never validly or legitimately hold the office of Pope. A Pope MUST, either before or immediately upon their election, be ordained a Bishop. Of course a woman, per John Paul II, can never be either a valid or legitimate candidate for such ordination or be actually ordained to it. Both are restricted to males.LilyM:
Have you found Canons which enunciate that lack of holy orders invalidates such an election?
I don’t see that as possible given the Canon expressly mentions the possibility that Orders is lacking in the candidate and states: “A person elected to the supreme pontificate who is marked with episcopal character obtains this power from the moment of acceptance. If the person elected lacks episcopal character, however, he is to be ordained a bishop immediately.”
BTW I didn’t originally source the Canon, Petra did.
These requirements in regard to Holy Orders are so central to the office of Pope that I would submit that lack of ordainabilty would indeed invalidate the election of someone who cannot be ordained - ie any woman. Just as a lack of US Citizenship at birth would have invalidated Obama’s election.
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BlackFriar
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Indeed. This is not the issue.
The issue raised is whether electing an unordained person (including women) invalidates the Papal election. That does not appear to be the case.
If you can find a Conclave rule that denies this we would love to see it.
You do seem to be getting a tad over-concerned on this issue.
Its fantasy topic remember! But technically its possible to elect one.
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quies
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Yeah. She’d have two chances: Slimski and Noneski. And Slimski just left town…
Shoot, she’d have about as much of a chance of making it through as a pound of liver at a cat show.
meow.
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LilyM
Guest
The election of the unordained is not the point. Of course a Pope need not be ordained prior to election. But he must be ordainable, given the requirement that at the latest he be ordained immediately after election.LilyM:
Indeed. This is not the issue.
The issue raised is whether electing an unordained person (including women) invalidates the Papal election. That does not appear to be the case.
If you can find a rule that denies this we would love to see it.
Women, of course, are unordainable. So - the unordained can be validly/legitimately elected. Not the unordainable. And I am not a little frustrated by your inability to make what appears to me to be the very obvious distinction between the two states of being, and your persistence in acting as though they are both the same thing.
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Gorgias
Guest
OK… so you’re just saying “yes… but no.” Fair enough.
Who woulda thought you’d be digging in your heels and picking nits…?!?
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AndrewAxland
Guest
Okay, now that we all agree that a woman can at least hypothetically be elected pope, the question arises of who that woman should be.
Too bad Hillary is a Methodist, but there’s always Nancy Pelosi!
Too bad Hillary is a Methodist, but there’s always Nancy Pelosi!
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PetraG
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As I said: Popachachitaburrita. It has a ring to it. It would not be what Herself called herself, though.You are getting a bit serious with the ad hominem there.
If you go back to the origin of this point you will see the poster was attempting to demonstrate by logical propositions that women cannot be made Pope. Indeed it seems they can. Even without being bishop of Rome - both legally and logically. Reality is a different matter and clearly not the subject of this fantastical thread
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PetraG
Guest
.Okay, now that we all agree that a woman can at least hypothetically be elected pope, the question arises of who that woman should be.
Too bad Hillary is a Methodist, but there’s always Nancy Pelosi!
Oh, come on. Pope Ophrah. Who else? She can make Caitlyn a Cardinala.
Popachachitaburrita Oprah. Everybody look under your chair; there is a Cadillac. Cadillacs for everybody!!
Sola Ophrah’s-Book-of-the-Month alone!! Hurrrrrray!!! Maybe she’s not just Pope! Maybe she is the Second Coming!!!
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rose321
Guest
Respectfully toward opinion only. Seems The Heavenly Father has no issue with a woman does he? He choose a Woman>> Blessed Mother, Elizabeth >>both Woman to bring forth his greatest Treasure, most Sacred Blessings, to mankind? Mothers to be our>>first teachers << did he not?
Lets not forget Mary Magdalene whom is called An Apostle among the Apostles?
Our Heavenly Father has chosen many woman throughout the bible giving them great task to over see in serving him?
Our Heavenly Father has no issues it seems>>> calling Woman in serving him in mighty task, does he?
Calling and giving Woman throughout history, great responsibilities to be head over, in serving him, does he?
Not to mention there is a long recorded history were many Nations in ancient times >>>were ruled over by Women and Prospered greatly, seems only man as an issue with woman leading, but our Heavenly Father does not?
Noting also, Apostles, Jesus, John Baptist had many woman disciples, followers in serving them also, along with their Jewish Christian followers>>they were not of the Pharisees or Sadduccees, but belonged to the sect of what was called>>>> The Nazarene’s>>their motto was>> I am The Way, The Truth and The Life, follow me??
There were 7 different sects in Jesus time was there not?
Jesus rebukes harshly, boldly even calling them blood vipers, the Pharisees Sadducces their scribes( teachers of the law, why?) even rebukes the Priest ( why?) and those who ruled over them, within the Temple and Jerusalem, why?
Jesus also did not agree with the law stoning woman to death did he? Why? Must of known being author of Jeremiah 8:8?
Jesus also defended the Woman, Widows, did he not,and many became disciples teaching their children families and communities and open up their homes for Jesus teaching, why?
Jesus what would not be heard or seen in his time, had many Woman >>>>disciple >>who also called out in spreading and in teaching, giving His Spoken Word, did they not? Why?
Changes come all throughout OT and there is a Time for all things, is there not?
Honor thy Father and Mother, unity, oneness, family both are called to serve for the good of the Family in unity, Oneness? His Household is not divided is it?
Thus commanded >>>Honor our Father and Mother>.physical and earthly parents? We have >Heavenly> Spiritual Father? The Father>> not a Father?
So if a Woman, should be Bishop, she or he is serving our Heavenly Father, so should she/he their title be and called Bishop?
For there was in ancient times early beginnings, they were given the title >>Priest and Priestess and later Bishops among Bishops, gender has nothing to do with it does it?
A Pres is a Pres whether one is a woman or man?
Introduction>>The Pres of the United States?
If a woman become Pres, there is no need to be addressed as >>Madam Pres for we do not put, Man Pres do we?
Peace
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angel12
Guest
Mr. President is a very common form of address for a (male) president. So Madame President would make sense for a female.
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BlackFriar
Guest
You have a tendancy to use a lot of musts Lily.
Do quote any law or rule that actually says what you want it to say?
You are trying to replace the mind of the COllege of Cardinals with written laws on this matter.
The simple point is there aren’t any.
The electors appear to have complete freedom to vote as they please and without restriction.
I think the idea is to allow for the guidance of the Holy Spirit who blows where He may…
Even unto the incarnation which all Jews know is impossible. Yahweh is pure spirit.
The very idea of Him becoming flesh and blood is abhorrent and anathema.
Yet Christianity was born all the same.
A female Pope seems so much less impossible in comparison
.
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Vonsalza
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You’re a dangerous man, friar.
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LilyM
Guest
The musts aren’t made up off the top of my head. As a woman, I don’t have any intention of denying myself or my fellow women anything to which they may be legitimately entitled. On the contrary. I see nothing in Canon and Magisterial teaching, however, to support the idea that a woman can validly be elected Pope.LilyM:
You have a tendancy to use a lot of musts Lily.
Do quote any law or rule that actually says what you want it to say?
You are trying to replace the mind of the COllege of Cardinals with written laws on this matter.
The simple point is there aren’t any.
The electors appear to have complete freedom to vote as they please and without restriction.
I think the idea is to allow for the guidance of the Holy Spirit who blows where He may…
Even unto the incarnation which all Jews know is impossible. Yahweh is pure spirit.
The very idea of Him becoming flesh and blood is abhorrent and anathema.
Yet Christianity was born all the same.
A female Pope seems so much less impossible in comparison
As for your comment that the Cardinals are free to vote as they wish - they are free to put what they like on their ballot papers of course. But if they were, to a man, to return blank papers, or to vote for the ficus plant, or to nominate somebody’s cat, those votes would be considered invalid. They would be sent back to the ballot box. The same would - should - happen if they were to nominate a woman.
Read the canon again. “If the person elected lacks episcopal character (ie if they are not a bishop already) he is to be ordained a bishop immediately”.
The words ‘is to be ordained’ form a binding obligation and make it a must for any would-be Pope. The legislation provides for no exceptions. It doesn’t say “he can remain unordained if you want”. It doesn’t even say “he can be ordained but you are free to wait five or ten years to do so.”
That, my dear brother, is where the ‘must’ comes in and where women are necessarily excluded.
The rest is idle fancy. Jesus had women among His closest followers but pointedly did NOT choose any of them as priests or Bishops. He did not tap Mary Magdalene or the Blessed Virgin or St Martha on the shoulder and give them the keys to the Kingdom and the power to bind and loose.
That privilege was reserved to St Peter and his successors, who established the priesthood and the Papacy as they are today, and have taught consistently that their essentially male character is unchangeable.
There is nothing wrong with that - after all, Jesus didn’t choose a man to give birth to Hin either.
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PetraG
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Yes, he did. It was mostly women at the foot of His Cross, too. Yet he chose none of those holy women available to Him to be priests or bishops, even though priestesses were by no means unknown in the ancient world.
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BlackFriar
Guest
A non ordained person can clearly be elected “Roman Pontiff” and is called such before ordination.
However power cannot be transferred until ordination
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rose321
Guest
Respectfully toward:slightly_smiling_face: Opinion only and do not misunderstand either, not anti Pope either>>
Our Heavenly Father gave the gift of Free Will to all, >>>our Heavenly Father came to show us
The Way, he even came in the flesh and they say actions speak louder then words, is this not true?
What human beings choose our Heavenly Father > is not held accountable for, is he?
Our Heavenly Father chose not to write nothing down, but man has, is this true?
Jesus tells us >>Let your hears ear what the Holy Spirit says to…?
Our Heavenly Father does not seek > gender > but our Heavenly Father seeks out the purity of> Hears, Souls and Minds, > does he not?
Heavenly Father, Ten commandments make that very clear, do they not?
If one wants to enter the Kingdom obey His Royal Laws, Ten Commandments
and Love your neighbor as you love your self, is this not written? There is no mention of gender is there?
There is not one Commandment within his >Ten Commandments of > Thou shall not commit adultery, state that it is >>only>>to be obeyed by Woman and does not apply for Man to obey, does it?
Jesus choose so many Woman to serve him in His time, era that would be looked upon as what by others?
In Jesus time. Woman/ Men could not even worship together or sit together and were not even in the same rooms?
Our Heavenly Father Home, Family is not divided is it?
He loves all dearly > he laid down his Life for All, Men/Woman did he not?
Written? > I bring forth rain upon the good and the bad?
Written? >Do not the good and bad, breathe the same air?
The Mother is the Heart
of the Home, is this saying not true?If there is to be successors on earth to represent, serve our Lord and Savior
as men teachers and servants, having Cardinals? Bishops? Priests, then what about?Thou shall honor thy Father ^ and Mother >
It was not about genders >with Jesus was it? He calls out both, chooses more Woman then Men even, be unheard of or done in Jesus time, to be teachers to call out also?Should there not be successors to represent, our Blessed Mother
Both are equally needed > to bring forth our Heavenly Father’s most Sacred Blessing, Treasure a > child, is this true?
When the 2 become >One < an energy source is created and both are equally needed, to bring forth his Sacred Blessing >a Child?
Our Heavenly Father teaches us about our egos? vanity? pride? boasting?
No, master is greater then his servant and no servant is greater then his master, written is it not?
Our Heavenly Father makes it very clear, does he not?
Our Heavenly Father seeks > not >gender, but Our Heavenly Father >calls out and seeks the Loving purity of >Hearts, Souls and Minds>>does he not?
Peace
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PetraG
Guest
Your questions have been asked and answered:If there is to be successors on earth to represent, serve our Lord and Savior
https://w2.vatican.va/content/john-...p-ii_apl_19940522_ordinatio-sacerdotalis.html
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